Hey Everyone,
Just wanted to share some ideas I had to help with scaling, seldom used skills, and class flavor.
Please share your thoughts and I hope someone will do some math and help tune the numbers.
Also, wouldn't it make more sense to have Lancer as our cross class instead of Monk?
Keen Flurry (Def), Invigorate, Blood for Blood (Off) seem to fit much better with the class flavor.
*All recast times and resource costs remain the same.*
Ideas for Warrior Skill Changes
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10-27-2013, 02:45 PMEinheriIdeas for Warrior Skill Changes
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10-27-2013, 02:46 PMEinheri
Defiance:
Increases maximum HP by 25% and healing received from spells by 15%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity.
Using certain actions while under the effect of Defiance will grant Wrath.
Each unit of Wrath increases critical hit rate by 2% and *restores 1% of max health on critical strikes.
When five units are stacked, you will become Infuriated. All Wrath is lost when Defiance ends.
*Or absorbs 5% of critical damage dealt as healing
Inner Beast:
Delivers an attack with a potency of 300.
Ignores the damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.
Can only be executed when Infuriated.
All Wrath is lost when used.
Additional Effect: Restores 20% of max health. -
10-27-2013, 02:47 PMEinheri
Unchained:
Nullifies the damage penalty inflicted by Defiance and
Reduces damage received by 25%
Duration: 20s
Can only be executed when Infuriated.
All Wrath is lost when used.
Effect is canceled if Defiance ends.
Steel Cyclone:
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200 to all nearby enemies.
Ignores the damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.
Can only be executed when Infuriated.
All Wrath is lost when used.
Additional Effect: Damage over time. Increased enmity
Potency: 40. Duration 18s.
Foresight:
Increase defense by 20%
Increase the damage reduction granted by parries by 20%.
Duration: 20s
Fracture
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Additional Effect: Damage over time.
Additional Effect: Decreases target's damage dealt by 3%
Potency: 20. Duration 30s -
10-27-2013, 02:47 PMEinheri
Blood Bath:
Each successful attack restores 3% of max health.
Duration: 30s
Berserk:
Increases attack power by 50%. Duration: 20s
Grants Wrath when used with Defiance. Duration: 30s
Storms Path:
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Maim, Skull Sunder
Combo Potency: 250
Combo Bonus: Restores 10% of max health
Grants Wrath when used with Defiance. Duration: 30s
Holmgang:
Binds both caster and target. Duration: 6s
Additional Effect: Causes non player target to attack caster. -
10-27-2013, 05:16 PMYagrush
Yeah, I think scaling our lifesteal with our max hp is the next best thing from scaling directly from monster damage. I approve. Also, make Holm generate Wrath. xD
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10-27-2013, 07:51 PMGamemako
I will have to disagree with most of your ideas.
Keen Flurry is not better than Featherfoot, especially since Featherfoot also reduces damage against magical abilities while Keen Flurry does not. Invigorate isn't all that useful once you include uses of Inner Beast and Berserk -- I hardly had to slow down during a 15-minute battle with Cancer. Blood for Blood is directly opposed to tanking, and that should tell you all you need to know about its inclusion. Hell, for balance reasons, you'd have no choice but to prevent WAR from having access to that ability. WAR is not and will not ever be a DPS. If you want an MRD DPS, wait for the second job (Dark Knight, Viking, Berserker, or whatever they decide on). PGL is a better fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
You have confused WAR's issues altogether. Refer to my thread on the topic. WAR's problem is that it doesn't scale to enemy damage. You're relying on more unscaled healing, which would make WAR even more able to solo content and no more worthwhile in endgame parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
This is still flat healing. It is scaled to VIT rather than STR, but it's still unscaled to enemy damage and fundamentally cannot address WAR's troubles. It also has no synergy with other WAR abilities (no Berserk or Inner Release for bonus healing) and is a nerf unless you've gone purest VIT and stacked up 8k HP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
So, turning Unchained into Rampart? Technically would work, outclassing Inner Beast as mitigation fairly early (a measly 300 DPS for equivalence). However, you're running a bit into PLD design territory here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
So, turning Fracture into Rage of Halone? Not to mention that Fracture is a cross-class ability, plus you're cutting into WAR's Wrath gen by using it, so you're making the ability more effective for PLD than WAR. This won't help at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
Still cross-class. Would give PLD another useful CD. Has no synergy with other WAR abilities (again). Quite the opposite, really, since your change to healing would make STR rubbish and therefore reduce the value of parrying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
Absolutely not. Same problem as before (still flat heals, just tied to VIT instead of STR), except amplified as hell. You've made every DoT-heavy class want to abuse the hell out of it. Imagine an archer carrying Fracture + Venomous Bite + Windbite + Flaming Arrow, for example, plus all the Bloodletter and normal GCD spam. +12% HP per 3s from DoTs, 2% from passive regen, relative 3.6% from GCD, 3-4% from autoattacks, 0.3% from Blunt Arrow (time-weighted), and maybe 1.5% from Bloodletter spam with +~6% per 3s from Barrage while active. +28.5% HP per 3s? Go go Gadget ARC tank! Or better yet, put up Flaming Arrow and spam Quick Nock. 5 enemies, +40% HP per 3 seconds. Oh, and cross-class PLD dropping Circle of Scorn for the win -- a pile of 5 enemies would give you back 75% of your max HP on one ability alone, plus Curtana's fast attack speed (6.5 hits per 15s), cross-class Fracture, and off-GCD Spirits Within. In 15 seconds, PLD would get back 130.5% of max HP. What a mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
Still flat heals. But really, come on, man! An additional 100 HP/s healing? Not only will WAR still suck at endgame, it will make non-endgame content that much more pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
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10-27-2013, 09:05 PMTherion
I actually think scaling most of our abilities to HP % seems to fit the warriors kit more. High HP tank with self heals, and self heals rewarding high HP. We dont do that much more damage than paladins, so the whole 'warriors are high damage tanks' is kinda moot. The bloodbath thing could be tied to the trait, and the normal one would remain unchanged. Same with Foresight, and Fracture. I agree that we kinda need Keen Flurry since Parry is all we got, and would be a welcome addition. Some of the abilit changes I dont agree with, but most I like. Id change fracture though, something more like:
Fracture (trait)
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. When used after Parrying an attack, half TP cost and delivers an attack with a Potency of 170 and additional enmity (Ala shield swipe)
Additional Effect: Damage over time.
Potency: 20. Duration 30s -
10-27-2013, 10:17 PMGamemakoSame eHP as PLD, self-heals unaffected by HP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Therion
Mechanically unlikely. You are suggesting that an effect be removed by a trait, and that ain't gonna happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Therion
I don't think it's feasible to force TP cost reduction on proc for anything, let alone for a 30s DoT. You haven't added any reason to use the ability. If you're so concerned about DPS that you're adding Fracture to your rotation, you aren't waiting for a random effect to show up and interrupt your combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Therion
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10-28-2013, 01:06 AMEinheri
Feather Foot, inner release, and Mantra aren't useless I know. I was thinking more in terms of how the marauder and lancer have more in common than the pugilist. If you train in the ways of a marauder, being able learn the ways of a lancer seems more in line than learning how to be fluid enough to dodge in heavy plate armor with a giant axe. May just be the roleplayer in me. Also you do not spend 100% of your time as a warrior tanking. Skills like Blood for Blood and invigorate would add some utility.
I am under the impression after Yoshi-P live letter that the +healing bonus of Wrath will be rolled into the passive bonus of Defiance in 2.1 -
10-28-2013, 01:07 AMEinheri
Character caps are my nemesis. I actually have read your post before writing this, you did a great job and I look forward to a good discussion.
As for the heal portion, what if we changed it to being a heal spell equal to the % of max the skill provides? You attack and gain a heal = 5/10/20% of your max health, this heal could be crit'ed as if it were a cure. This would add in the synergy with +crit and +healing received.
Wrath was the first skill I looked at. I started with the % based on crit damage and later changed it to work like the rest of the self heals I proposed. My thoughts here were with Wrath up you would receive small heals through out a fight effectively being a block in line with our class self healing mechanic.
Secondly I feel the trade off of spending wrath is what makes our class so fun. With wrath up you get sustainability or you can spend it on Inner Beast for Burst Mitigation (reactive), Unchained burst mitigation (proactive), Steel Cyclone (+threat). -
10-28-2013, 01:07 AMEinheri
From what I have been able to read most people are only doing 1000-1500 healing from Inner Beast so the 20% should be pretty close to existing numbers. I haven't done the math. The other idea I see floating around Would be to make the heal based on damage taken. What are your thoughts on turning our skills from what we put out to what we take in? Something like *Inner beats: You rage and receive 25% of the damaged received in the Last 5s as healing*
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10-28-2013, 01:10 AMEinheri
Yeah basically. Unchained is very lackluster. It cost 5 wrath and is essentially a 25% damage buff with a 180s cool down. I like your idea from your graphs post about taking it off wrath. However, I like the idea of wrath consumers and some trade offs. So I was trying to figure out how to make this a mitigation buff. My first idea tied back into making parry more appealing and having the skill increase parry rate, this would stack with my proposed foresight. But I felt the flavor of 25% more damage dealt and 25% less damage taken was more Warrior-y. Sorta like a adrenaline filled fury you feel no pain while raging out.
My problem with fracture it is a talented ability that we have very little reason to use. I felt adding a beneficial buff would make using it worth while. My first though was to make it Increase damage taken, seems more inline with the name of the skill. Then I was thinking we like mitigation so change from 3% taken to -3% dealt. What would you add to fracture to make it a worthwhile? -
10-28-2013, 01:12 AMEinheri
My idea with foresight was to boost another lackluster skill and keep the class flavor. Our armor comes with a lot of +parry, and I wanted to promote that form of mitigation. Again having more cross class benefits are fine by me but this is another trait'ed skill and should really shine. My hopes of promoting parry would make STR sought after. So if you like the parry mitigation stacking STR, if you like the self heals stack VIT, if you like the sustained heals stack +crit. Having more then one way to play a class just makes it better for me. I would love to see more variety between different warriors.
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10-28-2013, 01:12 AMEinheri
Blood Bath is another lackluster traited skill. I assumed each tick of a DoT it not a successful attack, and it would have an internal cool down (2s?), that's something I'm used to from other games. The other idea I like is to add a buff stack like +parry chance for 15s for each successful attack. Thoughts?
Storms Path was one of the skills I had the hardest time with. I like the idea that instead of doing 50% of damage done, it added a blood bath like buff for 12s. (1.0?) You would have trade offs. Storms Path has a high Tp cost and does less damage then either Storms Eye or Butcher block with out providing their Enmity or resistance debuff. This skill can get OP really quick or be very weak. 10% Hp seemed decent for a situational skill with out adding a cool down. What if we scrapped the Heal and added a damage shield akin to Stoneskin? -
10-28-2013, 02:03 AMTherion
I don't think you understand where we are coming from? Same eHP yes, same mitigation not quite. Granting a % life gain on some abilities helps scaling, since as a tank we will always want more HP, paladins too. To counter paladins flat % damage reduction, it just seems to me flat % self healing is a decent match. On bloodbath, who knows? You cant say with absolute certainty it cant happen. This is all just speculation and dreaming from those of us who would like a little love on war. We aren't out on some jihad to get the dev's attention to change the class, so please don't rain on our parade :(
On the fracture thing, I'm not concerned about DPS. As fracture is, its largely ignored and unused. Due to not being a threat increase, and marginal DPS increase, and too high TP cost. Making it reactive similar to paladins shield swipe would allow us to gain 20 TP when using it (sorta, due to TP regen) and allow it to give additional enmity. Hell, instead of increasing potency or decreasing TP cost, maybe increase parry chance by 5% or something for like, 15 secs? Would be cool. -
10-28-2013, 03:14 AMKitruYou can edit a post to break the 1000 character cap. Just type up whatever you need to, cut all but the first paragraph/sentence or so, and then edit to paste back in the cut portion after posting it. Makes it *much* easier to read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
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10-28-2013, 05:34 AMStonie
about scaling leeches to a % of HP that is silly because i normally get like 1.1 or 1.2 k out of the thrill of battle but i have gotten upto 2.5k hp off one inner beast. on adverage though i get about the same hp out of inner beast as i do with TotB but that is my point, the crits net you much more leeching then if you scaled it to a % because that would limit you to a baseline amount of health everytime instead of having a chance to get a crit that heals you for alot more.
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10-28-2013, 05:37 AMLeiron
Um...
Your damage scales much more slowly than your health does.
So while crits are nice, they won't be enough as gear continues to improve and mobs continue to hit harder. -
10-28-2013, 05:47 AMStonie
lol the entire time i have had inner beast and TotB inner beast has trumped over TotB for self heals, so i highly doubt any new gear or harder hitting mobs will change this, as my hp as grown so has my damage. i guess you don't really look at the str on your gear that you get as a tank because str is normally a point or two lower on pretty much piece except like rings and braclets and stuff like that
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10-28-2013, 05:48 AMStonie
besides i think that WAR is fine as it i don't have any issues with it at end game stuff, i think you guys just don't play that class right, i'm a lv 50 WAR AND HAVE NO ISSUES END GAME.
no idea why it says i'm only lv 49 on here btw.
WARs need this macro btw, it gives you 1 more wrath then you should it is REALLY cool to exploit lol.
/ac "Heavy Swing" <t>
/wait 1.5
/ac "Bloodbath" <me>
/wait 1
/ac "Maim" <t>
/wait 1.5
/ac "Unchained" <me> <------------ start with 2 wrath if you want to skip unchained, 4 if you want to use it.
/wait 1
/ac "Storm's Path" <t>
/wait 1
/ac "Berserk" <me> <------------ you will either gain an extra 1 wrath in this macro on either this step or internal release
/wait 1
/ac "Internal Release" <me>
i LOVE this macro, idk if it is a glitch but the extra wrath allows you to pull off two inner beast while berserk and bloodbath are still up and inner beast wil crit this way sometimes for 750 damage, that is a really big heal. if you start this with 2 wrath you will have 5 when it is over and if you start at 4 wrath you will unchained and still have 2 wrath when done which gives you jsut enough time to wrath 5 IB+infurate+IB
my other macros i pair off TotB with second wind then convalescence for spikes and foresight+featherfoot for general mitagation whenever it is ready to use.
i also feel that i should mention about my high damage macro, you have to use the wait 1.5 when i have them on there, if you wait 1 before buff and wait 1.5 after buff then soemtimes the buffs don't trigger right and i never got that extra wrath intil i made my macro as i wrote it in here -
10-28-2013, 06:03 AMGamemakoGiven the release-the-beast mantra of the WAR story, I think PGL abilities actually make a lot more sense. It's not just about swinging an axe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
Long story short, WAR and PLD do nearly identical damage when not tanking (non-Defiance vs. Sword Oath). This is how the game was designed. Adding more non-tank damage to WAR in the form of Blood for Blood and reducing tanking damage by taking away Inner Beast would actually cut mitigation slightly and unbalance PLD and WAR. All tanking jobs need to have similar utility and damage when not tanking so that none are preferred and none are pushed into non-tanking role due to relative ability. This is also part of why Brutal Swing is being changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
It definitely did seem that way based on his comments about Inner Beast. That will help but not fix the scaling problem alone -- remember that Shield Oath is at least 25% effective healing increase and it scales with all healing. Regardless, the goal should be to push as much scaled healing as possible to limit the effect of content scaling. If Crystal Tower affords any situation where 3 healers are on one tank, then WAR is certain to be hopeless with its reliance on flat healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
% heals also aren't boosted by +healing bonuses. Doing a mechanic on crit would be possible (e.g. base 20%, additional 10% on ability crit), but I'm not sure what the benefit is except making one stat build preferred over another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
It's still a flat heal that doesn't scale to enemy damage, though. Inner Beast isn't so bad in that it's burst mitigation -- it should (theoretically) at least give you what you need to survive in all but the most extreme of cases. Focusing more on flat healing for continuous mitigation doesn't make much sense. WAR needs more scaled healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
Steel Cyclone as a threat gen just feels out-of-place. Most of us aren't hurting for enmity, so it generally feels superfluous. Since you're trading Inner Beast, I still think all Wrath abilities need to be defensive in nature. Steel Cyclone could (in theory) be a better choice for AoE situations. At the very least, it should be comparable to Inner Beast (say, 100% of damage absorbed -- need 4 targets before it's advantageous there), but I think a unique mechanic would be preferable (AoE damage debuff, paralysis, silence, whatever).Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
That's about right -- 1100 is pretty much where you'd be for a Garuda-equipped WAR (assuming 320 strength) after Maim and Storm's Eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
While it works, you'd have to spam the heck out of it to match as continuous mitigation (compare to Shield Oath, blocking) -- you may take as much as 100% of your HP pool per 5s or so, so if you can only use it every 20s, you're going to run into your max HP as a limiter. As burst mitigation (compare to Rampart, Sentinel), it would help scaling to scale it to enemy damage, but burst mitigation isn't really the problem to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
Yeah, it's terrible. I made the suggestion of removing it from Wrath just as an off-hand sort of comment on the nature of the ability -- it's not really a solution, just a point that it has no place on Wrath if it's not boosting your tanking ability. Like I said, your idea would work, it's just a bit PLD-like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
Shield Swipe now is what Fracture in 1.0 was. Pacification effect from a parry proc, hence the name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
That's because WAR and PLD gear is identical. When you compare all 3 ilvl90 chestpieces, they have the same VIT, STR, and Parry bonuses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
Right now, it ticks all DoTs and has no time limitations. It's entirely based on DPS. Player time limitations don't work well in ARR because various weapons have different autoattack speeds, so there's no reliable interval. You could probably disable DoT ticks from it, but you'd still have multi-target focus if it is scaled to max HP (i.e. per-hit healing) and not damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
Functionally no different -- flat heal for X amount (scaled to player damage or player health rather than enemy damage). At least amount-healed ones can lose overheal amounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
I personally view Storm's Path as a lost cause. It's hard to work into a proper rotation -- it has to replace Storm's Eye in a rotation to be used at all, and if any changes are made to Fracture, you'd have one more reason not to use it. I still think Storm's Path may be more about the second MRD job.
It's not about how it scales to the player, it's about scaling to the player at all. When there are two healers on one tank, there is twice as much damage coming to the tank. A PLD's reduction effectively doubles -- 20% of 500 DPS is 100 DPS reduced; 20% of 1000 DPS is 200 DPS reduced. A WAR's reduction doesn't scale with content, so if it's balanced with PLD in single-healer content (in this example, 100 DPS reduced), it's half as effective in two-healer content (still only 100 DPS reduced, or effectively 10%).Quote:
Originally Posted by Therion
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10-28-2013, 06:52 AMRyockI am not trying to be antagonistic here, this is an honest question. Have you main tanked coil?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonie
As for warrior changes. I always thought it was kinda weird that we lose damage in defiance, when I thought warrior was supposed to be a more offensively oriented tank. While it wouldn't fix our problem, I felt that the damage reduction shouldn't even exist on defiance to begin with, and that unchained should do something... well... more useful. -
10-28-2013, 09:26 AMStonie
not quite yet, but i have faired better then pld with the same gear most the time. i don't feel like i am geared enough yet and don't want to hop into an instance like a d-bag lol. i'll let you know how the works out but i fly through the rest of hte end game stuff.