Can we add some complexity to combat? Skill chains and magic bursts ??

Does anyone else feel there's something missing from combat in FFXIV? It just seems super generic. As things are, interaction between players during combat is just like every other "holy trinity (tank/healer/dd)" MMO out there. Tanks worry about positioning and mitigation, DD worry about dealing damage without pulling hate, and healers worry about healing tanks and DD that take hits. All while everyone tries to stay out of puddles. You can find these kinds of challenges in tons of other games.

Meanwhile, the Skill Chain & Magic Burst (SC/MB) system from FFXI was a FF unique combat mechanic that gave great rewards to groups capable of time-sensitive coordination. I recognize that 1) FFXIV shouldn't be an FFXI clone and 2) FFXIV combat is a bit fast for the SC/MB system of yore, but I think there's room add in SC/MB concepts/mechanics, at least for boss fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Combinatoric

It just seems super generic.

---

Working as intended.

Making it to where people use the same cookie cutter skills to get the best results is super generic and boring. No thanks.

Even FFXI the game that made SC/MB moved away from it. I don't see it coming back in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Combinatoric

Does anyone else feel there's something missing from combat in FFXIV? It just seems super generic. As things are, interaction between players during combat is just like every other "holy trinity (tank/healer/dd)" MMO out there. Tanks worry about positioning and mitigation, DD worry about dealing damage without pulling hate, and healers worry about healing tanks and DD that take hits. All while everyone tries to stay out of puddles. You can find these kinds of challenges in tons of other games.
.

---

Why repost this exact same thread daily? Every one of the threads you've created is about this. Is it because most replies aren't in support of the feature?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PandaPause

Even FFXI the game that made SC/MB moved away from it. I don't see it coming back in this game.

---

This may be the sad truth :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KiriA500

Making it to where people use the same cookie cutter skills to get the best results is super generic and boring. No thanks.

---

You obviously don't know what you're responding to, so I've included a link to resources on the topic. You're welcome. Skill chains - Magic bursts

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BoomerOU

Why repost this exact same thread daily? Every one of the threads you've created is about this. Is it because most replies aren't in support of the feature?

---

Honestly? Just trying to get a few intelligent responses on the topic to see what people think. The majority of responses are over simplifications.

It seems like everyday someone makes a new thread with I want "XYZ" to be more like FFXI. If you want FFXI go play FFXI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Combinatoric

You obviously don't know what you're responding to, so I've included a link to resources on the topic. You're welcome. Skill chains - Magic bursts

---

I played FFXI. DISTORTION: THE GAME isn't fun.

(This is a reference to having to use Distortion quite often because all you fought in XI was stuff that was weak to ice, mainly crabs.)

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../c/c7/Crab.jpg

I loved skill chains and MB regardless if it was helpful or not.

however it wont work in this game because everyone has to spam their weapon skills off like its auto attack. No one is going to agree its worth coordinating with other peoples weapon skills. Although I'm w.e on having skill chains back, I would wish there was some purpose of TP and Auto Attack. The stuff's unlimited man.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KiriA500

I played FFXI. DISTORTION: THE GAME isn't fun.

---

Well I stand corrected then, my apologies. It's hard to sort through the tard replies on here sometimes.

Do you just think it's impossible to balance this type of mechanic out so that it's varied / fun?

As things stand you have your rotation, and if you're not nubcake then you've got macros that reduce the complexity of it. All of your meta attention is being paid to not standing in puddles. There has to be some sort of way they can give us a inter-player coordination similar to sc/mb that requires coordination. That's all I'm looking for really, some way of introducing timed coordination in combat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hobo

It seems like everyday someone makes a new thread with I want "XYZ" to be more like FFXI. If you want FFXI go play FFXI.

---

OK. I'll go play 2007 era FFXI when way before it was ruined by casuals and cry babies. Oh, wait. That FFXI doesn't exist anymore.

They would have to redo the whole combat system. All DPS jobs rely on using rotations to keep their damage at a maximum, the system isn't built for this kind of thing.

There's plenty of timed coordination later on when you do harder dungeons but it's more about movement, positioning, and having a strategy rather than any timing of skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alkimi

There's plenty of timed coordination later on when you do harder dungeons but it's more about movement, positioning, and having a strategy rather than any timing of skills.

---

I'm not there yet, so I guess I'm glad to hear this.

Nonetheless, I still hope they introduce some skill coordination one day, of some type. . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by busta

OK. I'll go play 2007 era FFXI when way before it was ruined by casuals and cry babies. Oh, wait. That FFXI doesn't exist anymore.

---

This comment right here makes me feel like you deem "casuals" as an inferior class of person, and that you would rather they stay out of video games.

Comments like above only serve to reinforce the stereotype that gamers have zero compassion or sensitivity, and that their soul is filled with naught but spite for humanity.

At least, that's how it seems to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Combinatoric

Honestly? Just trying to get a few intelligent responses on the topic to see what people think. The majority of responses are over simplifications.

---

By intelligent responses, you mean people agreeing with you?

Anyway, just because there's no system with a fancy name doesn't means you just don't have to care about what others are using.

I've never seen an MMO this easy and idiot-proof.
-You can't mess up your character spec simply because you can't spec, you end up with the same traits and cross class skills as everyone else.
-You can't choose the wrong gear. Everything is just a linear line of progression of the same boring stats from level to level.
-You can't mess up your materia customization because most stats are useless or already capped.
-Skills and spells require little to no strategy in their usage, you just keep rotating the same line of skills over and over again regardless of what enemy you're facing.
-Combat, in general, is too easy. You can make it to level 50 without dying in this game. The only fights that are "hard" are ones that you haven't met the gear requirement for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Combinatoric

This may be the sad truth :(



You obviously don't know what you're responding to, so I've included a link to resources on the topic. You're welcome. Skill chains - Magic bursts

---

LOL, how many of those do people actually used. I played FFXI from NA launch til recently and I can't remember ever using more then a couple of them at any given time. You always wait until your TP builds up and use the strongest one you got at the time. No variations at all. Don't get me wrong, I loved FFXI but you making this skill chains and magic bursts thing better and more complicated than it actually is or was. I for one think they can do so much with the limit break system but Yoshi seems to have that mindset that every job should be equal and balanced that's why we have what we have now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Combinatoric

Does anyone else feel there's something missing from combat in FFXIV? It just seems super generic. As things are, interaction between players during combat is just like every other "holy trinity (tank/healer/dd)" MMO out there. Tanks worry about positioning and mitigation, DD worry about dealing damage without pulling hate, and healers worry about healing tanks and DD that take hits. All while everyone tries to stay out of puddles. You can find these kinds of challenges in tons of other games.

Meanwhile, the Skill Chain & Magic Burst (SC/MB) system from FFXI was a FF unique combat mechanic that gave great rewards to groups capable of time-sensitive coordination. I recognize that 1) FFXIV shouldn't be an FFXI clone and 2) FFXIV combat is a bit fast for the SC/MB system of yore, but I think there's room add in SC/MB concepts/mechanics, at least for boss fights.

---

Skill chains and magic bursts won't work in here. The pace of battle is way fast for that and you'd end up loosing dps trying to coordinate the attack. It worked in XI because you had 40 seconds standing there doing nothing between weaponskills. And battle in here is a lot more engaging and team based that in XI, in my opinion and others I have talked to.

I won't work sadly, but I do miss elemental and weapon damage type. I liked the fact that pierce, blunt, etc did more damage on a species of mob. I also miss the elemental damage that would amplify the damage that you did. Things that like would be a lot easier to add than SC's and MBs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renvalt

This comment right here makes me feel like you deem "casuals" as an inferior class of person, and that you would rather they stay out of video games.

Comments like above only serve to reinforce the stereotype that gamers have zero compassion or sensitivity, and that their soul is filled with naught but spite for humanity.

At least, that's how it seems to me.

---

I was actually a casual FFXI player. But I wasn't a cry baby. I enjoyed the fact that everything was so difficult and required a great deal of skill and effort. I didn't whine on forums and talk crap everywhere else when I couldn't get my job to max level in a month or when I couldn't get certain quests done because I didn't have the time to dedicate. FFXI was one of the ONLY games that didn't exclusively cater to casuals.

Nothing is wrong with casuals. But there is something wrong with building every single MMO out there from the ground up specifically for casuals. Casual players aren't the only players. Some people prefer a game where it feels like an alternate world rather than a single player Diablo-style RPG that can be played solo or with friends. Some people enjoy the idea of being high level being an amazing accomplishment rather than something everyone has. Some people enjoy feeling like they have jumped into a second life. The only non-casual focused MMO still out there is Eve Online.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madix

I've never seen an MMO this easy and idiot-proof.
-You can't mess up your character spec simply because you can't spec, you end up with the same traits and cross class skills as everyone.
-Skills and spells require little to no strategy in their usage, you just keep rotating the same line of skills over and over again regardless of what enemy you're facing.
-Combat, in general, is too easy. You can make it to level 50 without dying in this game. The only fights that are "hard" are ones that you haven't met the gear requirement for.

---

Really? i found this games instances harder then any game i have played while still keeping it fun well i guess that just me..

The secret world is a game that lets you pick all your skill i mean you can learn them all and the funny thing is most people end up with the same build go figure same for most other games too

SC's and MB's weren't complex. They were a simple count method. It's not like you used different ones, because Ice was so OP in XI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Combinatoric

Honestly? Just trying to get a few intelligent responses on the topic to see what people think. The majority of responses are over simplifications.

---

Okay well...


It doesn't work with the structure of combat. A majority of actions on your hotbar are stuck with a dedicated GCD from 2.5s~2.3s with variance between classes. Not all classes function the same. Tanks both have a three step enmity chain they need to maintain to keep enmity building at a dedicated rate to out pace the generation of DPS/Healers. Skill Chains - for this system to be inherently interesting, and not subject to the self-skill chaining abuse as in Square's previous MMO title (FFXI), a Skill Chain would need to require an attack by each role to activate. Imbalance in mechanics of Skill Chains would drive the community towards a predisposition to any class able to self-chain.

Skill Chains themselves would require that a player react within a split second to a visual cue graphically; either (animation) or (text log). The pace of combat would make this impractical in the extreme - combat simply moves to quickly. People would need to artificially delay their actions so other players could interpret and react to them accurately - which just doesn't work. In the time it takes to enter a message into the log to forewarn your party that you're beginning a chain the situation in the fight could change drastically - area of effect, incoming damage spike, or simply a positional change would render your message moot. Not everyone has access to a VoIP - not everyone you play with is in your FC/LS.

• Paladin: Fast Blade -> Savage Blade -> Rage of Halone if I interrupt this chain to complete a "Skill Chain" which another player it interrupts the core rotation of the class. Enmity does not decay - how is Skill Chain damage calculated and who is the enmity attributed to? If I delayed my basic rotation the DPS also had to interrupt their rotations to perform an opener. In fights requiring dedicated Stuns they become unable to Skill Chain effectively.

• Warrior: See Paladin. Then tack on needing a 2nd distinct bi/tri rotation to their basic cycle to maintain Maim/Storm's Eye buff/debuff while building, maintaining, and utilizing Wrath stack requirements. Warrior would be less viable and more difficult to group with because of their ineffective rotations paired with a system that demands they delay or even cancel a combination to complete a chain - this once again directly goes against party play and structure in A Realm Reborn.

• Monk: Relies on maintaining a rotation and utilizing this rotation to maintain stacking buffs to output damage - abilities only become available when moving through forms and are gated by prerequisites unless their Perfect Balance ability is used - which is primarily for quickly recovering their stacked buff. It is not unfeasible that a class such as Monk could initiate or complete a Skill Chain under perfect circumstances - but it is highly unlikely and the class would suffer and likely become shunned as less effective.

• Bard: Could easily Skill Chain - the way Bard functions it would be the best choice, if not the exclusive choice, for a system that involved a group chaining skills together.

• White Mage: Did White Mage ever truly get to participate with any regularity in Skill Chains before? Please give me a structure where all roles are somehow incorporated.

• Scholar: See White Mage.

• Black Mage: Relies on building stacks of Fire, and recovering with stacks of Ice. Black Mage using Magic Burst to deal extra aspect damage without participating actively in the chain build means they are granted a DPS boost simply by existing in the party and continuing to do their basic rotations.

• Summoner: Has no method of outputting spike damage making their Burst utility practically null. Involving a pet in a Skill Chain would be horrendous due the imprecise nature of pet control in FFXIV ARR.

• Dragoon: Simplistic - Dragoon is the most traditional class and would be second only to Bard in such a system with it's freedom to position and utilize any particular skill on demand while only slightly disrupting their general GCD rotation.

In short - the pace of combat and the nature of Job mechanics would come into direct conflict with the idea of Skill Chains. Magic Burst would overwhelmingly favor Black Mage and lead to certain classes being stacked for an exponential effect. A system that requires players to interact in this manner would work in a game of significantly lower pace (FFXI) but is not possible in a modern MMO where the entire focus is on the individual's performance, positional awareness, and cool-down management to fulfill their role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by busta

But I wasn't a cry baby. I enjoyed the fact that everything was so difficult and required a great deal of skill and effort. I didn't whine on forums and talk crap everywhere else when I couldn't get my job to max level in a month or when I couldn't get certain quests done because I didn't have the time to dedicate. FFXI was one of the ONLY games that didn't exclusively cater to casuals.

Some people enjoy the idea of being high level being an amazing accomplishment rather than something everyone has. Some people enjoy feeling like they have jumped into a second life. The only non-casual focused MMO still out there is Eve Online.

---

and the eve community is know because it such a nice community.

tbh when i read you post i feel you have no compassion for anyone bar yourself and i feel the contempt you have for casual's. It scares me

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meldir

and the eve community is know because it such a nice community.

tbh when i read you post i feel you have no compassion for anyone bar yourself and i feel the contempt you have for casual's. It scares me

---

That's complete nonsense. Quit making completely false accusations. Strawmen tactics aren't real arguments. They are terrible logical fallacies.

I specifically said that there's nothing wrong with casual players and that I am a casual player. Is your reading comprehension level really that low?

My argument is that the vast majority of modern MMO developers completely ignore anyone who isn't a casual and anyone who wants a game that isn't another clone of a Blizzard game. There's a MASSIVE market out there that enjoyed old school FFXI and other games that felt like alternate realities rather than just single player super easy experiences that occasionally can involve some other people.

Edit: And actually, yeah. Eve IS known for having a GREAT community. That's because you need to play with other players to get anywhere in that game so the community is encouraged to be good. That's unlike most modern MMOs where the majority of the game can be solo'd with ease. No community develops because no one needs anyone else to do anything. In FFXIV it's even worse thanks to the DF.

It would be kind of like if every developer stopped making 360 and PS3 games and just made Wii party games. That's how us classic MMO lovers feel right now. There's nothing wrong with casual games but if that's all that's out there, a huge chunk of people are going to feel alienated.

Except when you fought things that weren't weak to ice. You know, like dem skeletons, ghosts, ice elementals, gigas, bombs... Really, anything that wasn't ice averse or water/wind element, had a skillchain that worked better on them.

I remember fragmentation tearing it up in the mid-level camps, especially when your closer didn't have access to a distortion skill.

Fusion was the second choice, since there were almost as many mobs weak to fire as there were ice.

Gravitation was sadly underplayed, if you ask me, but I did notice no other level 2 did as much damage to coeurls/rabbits/wyverns/hippogryphs.

Chanting ICE OP everytime someone brings up the words SKILLCHAIN and VARIATION in the same sentence doesn't mean that skillchain damage worked like Spell-Tier damage worked. The higher level spell got the higher damage. Skillchains did not follow that calculation, and anyone who thinks they did must not have used very many skillchains(Or at least use them correctly). That, or they're just idiots.

Considering the continual lag issues people have with the game, I'd think having time-sensitive things like Skillchains/Magic Bursts in there would make it a massive headache.

While the base battle system might be simple, boss mechanics make the game quite complex at endgame. At least that's my experience in Coil. I'm enjoying it as it is either way.

The combat is super fun for warrior, monk, and scholar imo.

Limit breaks just need to be completely revamped, you're going to use the DPS limit break 99.99% of the time because the tank one serves no purpose and the healer one giving everyone weakness + stunning everyone for like 5 seconds doesn't stop a wipe.

Please make limit breaks more interesting and have actual strategy, because right now they're just "ok 3 bars filled let's do 5-10% of the bosses health with level3 LB!".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by busta

It would be kind of like if every developer stopped making 360 and PS3 games and just made Wii party games. That's how us classic MMO lovers feel right now. There's nothing wrong with casual games but if that's all that's out there, a huge chunk of people are going to feel alienated.

---

Huge Chunk.......lol. If anything the people that feel like you do are so minor you might as well be a fart in the wind. Why else do you think Square went the safe route when remaking this game more like the Standard MMO style and less like FFXI? And for that matter why you do think they moved away from the old XI style. If the outcry against XI was so bad that they made it more casual then here's a hint, the amount of people who wanted it that way out numbered the people like you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

The combat is super fun for warrior, monk, and scholar imo.

Limit breaks just need to be completely revamped, you're going to use the DPS limit break 99.99% of the time because the tank one serves no purpose and the healer one giving everyone weakness + stunning everyone for like 5 seconds doesn't stop a wipe.

Please make limit breaks more interesting and have actual strategy, because right now they're just "ok 3 bars filled let's do 5-10% of the bosses health with level3 LB!".

---

I remember seeing somewhere that they are going to give the raise animation immunity for a bit after getting on their feet. Might make the healer one more potent. As to the tank one, yeah, I haven't even seen it used once.