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*with food, a potion, thrill of battle, and defiance up
Hilarious, still less EHP of an unbuffed (no food or pot) PLD in Shield Oath with Sentinel popped.
Leave these smartasses to be buzzkills for no apparent reason. I, for one, find it awesome.
A few seconds of fleeting glory.
That is awesome. Let the haters hate.
Doesn't Odin's final Faceplant-the-whole-zone move only do 9999 damage??
{Hmmm...}
ROFL, that'd be awesome, if WAR's could outlive the attack by eating food and stacking certain buffs right before the attack landed.
To me the comparison between PLD and WAR has always been akin to comparing an automatic family sedan to a manual transmission performance tuned sports car.
The sedan is safe, dependable, and easy to drive but is about as fun as watching paint dry.
The sports car is not that safe or dependable, but just sitting in it and revving the engine is enough to make anyone happy in the pants.
What WAR lacks in mechanics more than makes up for in fun for those who enjoy the challenge. Do I care that PLD can do things easier? Nope... too busy having fun. You know that thing you are SUPPOSE to play video games for.
Really, people are so busy theory-humping and crunching numbers they forget all about the most important statistic of all. ePS, Entertainment/Enjoyment per Second. And for me the ePS of WAR > PLD by miles and miles and miles.
Nope. My healers actually have fun too since a big part of getting the most out of WAR is working WITH your healers. They enjoy it when I tank for the same reason I enjoy WAR. They can heal a PLD in their sleep and find it dull where I am always communicating with them and coordinating my self heals with theirs or having them swap in a stone skin here and there to maximize my mitigation and other stuff like that. A PLD's playing style is to slow down the pace and really control the flow of incoming damage. WAR at it's core is the opposite, WAR is a faster pace playing style. And I have a few daredevil healers in my FC who like me like a little bit of adrenaline to get their systems going.
Finding a group of like minded people to have fun with > Pandering to the expectations and standards of closed minded, lazy, 'elitist' mainstream.
Facerolling your keyboard and hoping the WAR can take another hit or if it still has CDs left isn't fun imo.
Spoiler: this whole game is math; sentinel alone is better than the picture, because it doesn't require extra healing to get you back to that EHP unlike the Warrior.
For all intents and purposes this (all really) game's reality IS maths.
These disingenuous attempts to claim theory-crafting is invalid due to *practicality* (which is synonymous with *reality* in this circumstance), which is then never backed up with any form of elaboration is pretty poor form. It's nonsensical rhetoric, that is quite frankly not too surprising to hear.
Try backing it up next time with some points, it'd be more interesting than you just attempting give a 'witty' one liner and jacking yourself off to how you 'smasht me' (I recognise there may be traces of irony here :P).
That analogy doesn't hold, because in this circumstance the Sedan (PLD) still out-performs the sports car (WAR). Sure the sports car is harder to drive, but it's plain inferior, who the hell buys a sports car worse than a Sedan?
Additionally, you may enjoy playing a WAR, more power to you. I personally, enjoy winning most of all, to borrow your analogy; I'll take the Sedan and learn (TBH I've already mastered WAR, but whatever) the sports cars nuances when it provides me with a benefit. That's my EPS right there. If you're chugging along on the street, sure performance don't mean shit, use the fun car. But if you're in a race, then you'll want the top performer.
Finally, and I hate (I really do) to bring this up. But mate, my Warrior was great fun right up until (H) Titan as well. As soon as I realised I became a liability, I stopped having so much fun, when I realised other people in my group may not appreciate me dragging them down due to my self-fish *but I wanna play WAR* attitude. This is a sacrifice I'm willing to make, because then I can demand my other group mates min-max as well, so it works for me.
I recognise this may be an alt (for the purposes of trapping people into an assumption), so ignore it if you have actual Coil experience and go about driving your (manual) Ford Laser.
I might as well tackle this while I'm at it. I enjoy working with my healers too, that's why I can tank a six stack Caduceus, because my healer and I work very well with each other. As a PLD I simply take it to the next level and ignore mechanics (hence the complaining, so broken), I still work...sort of XD.
@Bolded section, I agree. It still doesn't undo the simple disparity between the tanks.
I don't understand why you can't let the guy have his fun.... Put your e-peens away. It's not like you have to party with him.
A lot of Warriors are too busy crying because they got shafted in Coil for 2.0 and Paladins are too busy wanting to gloat about being the optimal tank. Tank forum is very much a no fun zone until Warrior gets a buff in 2.1, then we'll probably just see the reverse or both jobs claiming to be better in certain instances.
I have said this before in another thread I don't play on this account that often. I mainly play on a shared account. So you are making a lot of assumptions yourself. Try judging people based on the merits of their posts than making rushed conclusions by judging profiles.
This actually reminds me of an argument I'm having in the GTA V Online forums about Free Aim vs. Auto Aim. As I am in the free aim camp as I don't see the fun in having a game mechanic that basically plays the game for you. I like a certain degree of control and I feel a lot of PLD's mechanics that game play takes a backseat while the cooldowns do all the heavy lifting. Not to say that PLD is not without it's complexities but they are more on the optional side than anything else. Again this is another example of way PLD is 'EASIER' but like I said before easier =/= better.
And the disparity between tanks only becomes an issue in the coil. And after adjusting to the learn curve and getting appropriate gear it only really stays an issue when attempting to function as a main tank. And that is something the developers have already said they are working on. Outside of that WAR is capable of clearing content.
This is an intuition pump (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_pump), and quite frankly annoys the shit out of me to read.
Your little thought experiment completely ignores the reasons WHY a PLD is superior to WAR. In case you don't know I'll explain why;
1. Shield Oath scales indirectly with healing. Aka no extra healing is equired to give them back their 25% bonus HP granted by Shield Oath. Unlike Defiance.
2. PLD's cool-down suite is god-tier for mitigating damage.
Both of these, as you mentioned need human input to see effectiveness. But the point is this; no amount of human input can make this happen for a WAR. No amount of human input can bridge this mathematical chasm. Yes good healers and not being a retard tank can help see this gap closed. But if you played a PLD you could do it even better. Once again with your analogy about tools; give someone a hand-saw, give the other a chainsaw, lets see who cuts down the 100 year old tree first, it doesn't matter how good the guy with the hand-saw is, he won't beat the guy with the chainsaw. And if it's close due to the immense skill of the hand-saw guy, give him a chainsaw, he'll cut down a forest in that time. Yes there is a great deal of hyperbole, but hopefully the mental illustration will help come to grips with my point.
Additionally, it's incorrect a PLD would still live ~6% longer on average due to block.
For all your arguments about ignoring theory crafting, when these 'organic' situations occur, the PLD is better equipped to deal with them. I don't play with a calculator at hand, I play intuitively like most people, but I use theory-crafting to better understand the situations limits as well as mine. Your argument doesn't hold because the WAR offers nothing in a shit-hits-the-fan moment that a PLD does.
Additionally, it is a flaw in theory-crafting yes, but it's still infinitely more accurate than relying on the 'experience of the general gaming populous'. If I wanted everybodies 'feelings' on the subject, then I agree theory-crafting is useless, but we're talking about a game based on maths here, thus maths is the best form of prediction.
So wait wait wait. If I understand this correctly, you reject the entire notion because of individual actions? This is a huge logical inconsistency, you can't hold an independent structure accountable for the actions of individuals who use it to behave like an ass. Especially when that structure is literally value neutral. Maths doesn't possess people to be ass-hats, I mean their interaction with maths may inspire them, but again not the maths as a structure's fault.
Theory-crafting helps understanding, not intuitive play. Do you think a tennis professional has a physicists knowledge of how the ball will fly when they hit it? No, they will have some knowledge, but the level in which they truely understand is one almost impossible to express with words. You can be ignorant of these facts and still be a champion, no-one argued you can't. PLD just makes it much easier to be that champion, because now your Tennis racket doesn't have holes in it. Theory-crafting is a tool to better understand your environment, its affect on actual intuitive game-play is rare beyond the preparation stage. Not really a counter-point, just getting on my soap-box as well.
So if I can understand this correctly. You're denying the mathematical proof of WAR's being inferior on the basis of you having fun playing a WAR? Seriously correct me if I'm wrong. Because nobody cares if you're having fun, go have fun, I encourage you to enjoy yourself. It still in no world or the next undo the simple proof. Warriors. Are. Inferior. At. Mitigating. Damage. No amount of feelings can change this.
Your analogy (more of a story) aside. You're missing the causation effect, PLD's are easier mostly because they are leagues better. They are not better because they are easier. If you made them worse, they'd be easier than a WAR, but not by the margin they are now. In this circumstance; better typically does mean easier, because you can perform your role with less confounding variables, while easier does not typically mean better.
Warrior's really aren't that much harder to play than Paladins. And if you're ever on silence duty or interrupt duty a PLD's (I do both at 50) job is actually harder. The only complicated part of playing a Warrior is knowing when to Inner Beast and your rotations are a little more complex. Maybe for the less...'skilled' (euphemisms for the sensitive) player it may be a 'challenge', but it's mechanically and intellectually less demanding than a PLD doing any extraneous duties. Typically speaking proactive cool-downs are harder because of the need to predict incoming damage, than reactive ones.
I don't even understand how that makes your analogy relevant. I thought my point was relatively clear, but this illustrates you missed it and instead attempted to defend your analogy. Let me reiterate; If you want to do non top-tier content, you can do it with any class - hell you can do AK/CM/WP with no tank - nobody argued you can't. Hence the chugging on the street part? Everybody complains about when you want to bring WAR to a race PLD's go better, faster and longer and the WAR has to ride in its slipstream the whole way. You seriously need to familiarise yourself with the arguments first before you make a quasi-attempt at debunking them and getting bogged down in overly complicated analogies (which are supposed to illustrate an argument for better transmission). Performance is far from subjective, because one class blatantly 'performs' the same role better
Also can you not talk about quantifying factors for performance (aka it's actual reality based attributes, speed, fuel efficiency, etc.) and say performance means how good it is at its role; then turn around and say performance is fun because I subjectively determined its performance = how much fun I'm having. It's confusing and poorly thought-out, all you've done is confuse your already confusing analogy more.
ADS doesn't die because of how much fun you're having. We need some baseline to determine how good something is at a role so someone other than ourselves can understand what the fuck you mean. Thus, as a tank performance is based on how slow ADS kills your ass. Because otherwise your argument is literally just a classic (though boring) attempt at your trying to use the word subjective to undermine any kind of argument based an already agreed upon understanding. Often this is done by people who misunderstand subjectivity and think you can just substitute it in as some sort of 'ace-in-the-hole'. We're not arguing philosophy or sociology here, so stop it.
This is essentially the crux of the argument. Having one tank blatantly unable to perform the other half of its role is somewhat of a concern for anybody serious about progression.
TL;DR: Have fun, have as much as you want, more power to ya. It still does not undo the plain simple truth. And the word 'subjective' doesn't undo that fact.
More like the PLD and WAR is akin to a blue automatic family sedan that runs at 30 mpg, with an optional model that uses a stick shift vs. a red automatic family sedan that runs at 25 mpg, with an optional model that uses a stick shift.
Both are braindead easy if you want it to be. Both can have a helluva lot of nuance if you want it to be. Some people prefer red, some people prefer blue, others like both, and others don't care. But, one clearly outperforms the other at its role.
Here's some things to think about.
1. Defiance also scales with incoming heals. Wrath stacks give Warriors increased incoming heals. PLDs get hit for less, WARs get healed for more. If this had been tested/balanced properly, the healing increase would be 25% and not 15% like it is currently.
2. Even with a deficit of 10% healing received to make up the difference, a lot of this difference is lost to overhealing, and it really makes almost no difference at all.
3. The cooldowns are what makes the PLD class strong. But what happens when you don't have one available? At this point you are basically a Warrior who can't heal himself. Granted this shouldn't be a problem with a competent group, but you should be able to see my point.
Honest to goodness, after slamming out what constitutes an essay, you don't think I'm aware of this fact?
10% extra healing received makes *almost* no difference at all, you heard it here first folks. It makes a huge difference when DTPS gets absurd, which it does a lot in Coil.
Let me put it another way. The extra mitigation from Shield Oath never goes away. The mitigation from Defiance disappears the moment that extra 25% HP is gone, it needs to be re-healed back and it is the difference between the two to do it (assuming 15% Wrath stacks 24/7), this may or may not cost more - never less, thus an advantage, not a liability - mana depending on the DTPS, but the more DTPS the more heals and this continues to accelerate. WAR is a mana sponge.
Reductionist logic, taken to a cliff and pushed off. Exact same logic applies to a Warrior but worse, because they have less CD's and each individual one is worse. IB being the only saving grace, but IB doesn't make up the difference as a WAR has to sacrifice his stacks for IB, the gap is greater than you make out. Meanwhile Shield Oath is still rippin' shit up and oh yeah, he's blocking (to say nothing of blind).
It has been beaten to death, but the equalizer of Defiance vs Shield Oath + Shield Block SHOULD'VE been the healing bonus, but the fact you have to sacrifice it for your main form of mitigation puts WAR on worse ground than PLD. If they do give them a flat HP healing bonus with Defiance, independent of Wrath, it would be great. It's possible they do this, considering YoshiP addressed the idea of Warriors losing healing by using their healing abilities and this being a problem. Who knows.