Class Homogenization.... Why do you want it?

All these threads about nerfs and "discrimination" have me wondering.

What are you expecting when you pick your main job or class?
Should your job/class be boss at everything? SE should never implement a situational boss fight?

Perhaps we should all be limited to one class to make it that much easier. I am struggling to find the logic in peoples request.

Is it possible you should adjust your play to the accepted mechanics of the game. Or maybe become a boss at your job and prove others wrong that job X is just as viable as Job Y in situation Z.

Where does personal responsibility come into play? Or are we in an never ending handout QQ to SE line... till we have the most generic MMO on the planet

Ultimately I am asking: Whats the point in specializing, if no one needs to be special?

Every single job has a role and therefor a purpose.

Specialisation is good. The problem is either when one job objectively is better than another (pld vs. war), or in situational fights. "Sorry for this fight your job's not good; good luck getting a party for it! But hey, in that other fight over there, your job's great, doesn't that make you feel better?"

Well, there will always be some specific jobs groups will require in them (such as Caster Dps for Ifrit for Nails).

But I like to prove people wrong that my job X is just as viable as Job Y in situation Z. Now, I don't have many Mmo's experience, only 3 (one which didn't have roles, other one was WoW and now FFXIV). When I played WoW, most of the community (and even my guild) said Fury over Arms for Warrior DPS. Funny, even undergeared, I was always in top 3 dps of groups I participated in. Was I lucky with numbers? Maybe. We'll see when (if) I switch to Dps in FXIV.

I don't think being "special" works when it comes to tank jobs. Outside of different styles of tanking(reactive vs proactive)

It may work for dps and healers. In fact bards are pretty "special" since they have powerful buffs and they are in demand. FFXI you would generally use which tank was better designed . But you could get by with a variety of healers and dps.

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Originally Posted by Lisotte

Specialisation is good. The problem is either when one job objectively is better than another (pld vs. war), or in situational fights. "Sorry for this fight your job's not good; good luck getting a party for it! But hey, in that other fight over there, your job's great, doesn't that make you feel better?"

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I get that.. i don't think its a perfect system, but why have two tank class (as per your example) if they are equal in every way?

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Originally Posted by RoosterAgathos

I get that.. i don't think its a perfect system, but why have two tank class (as per your example) if they are equal in every way?

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The dps are doing similar dps , the healers are doing similar hps. Warrior is pile of shit compared to paladin because they lack EVERYTHING (mitigation, scaling and cooldowns). If warrior was healing as much as paladin migitates(constantly) and had similar "power level" tank cooldowns to paladin. They would definitely be viable.

I HATE the H word! :mad:

Jobs should be balanced, but I know that's not always the easiest thing to do. SE will need to look at the fights and how they are designed in addition to just the classes' output. MMOs go years and years trying to balance without ever fully achieving it. It's the nature of the beast.

Also, nothing needs to be balanced around 4p parties. Ever. I hope they see it the same way.

Nerfing isnt about homognizing jobs, its about Balance. For example with the bard nerf, Bard DPS aint special, BUT BRD has 100% mobiltily to go with there DPS when most endgame fights require an exceptional amount of moving.

The way i see it the roles for each job are well defined
PLD: Passive Damage Mitigation Tank based on direct damage -
WAR: Reactive Mitigation tank based on HP/ DMG output
WHM: Burst/AoE heal specalist
SCH: Single target heal special/ Support
DRG: Low Skill Medium to High Damage Melee
MNK: High Skill Extremely High Damage Melee
BRD: Low to Medium DMG Ranged/Support Class
BLM: Low Skill/ Medium to High Damage Ranged
SMN: High Skill Extremely High damage Ranged.

Nerfs and players, wont change that.SE shouldn't be making fights that so heavy-handedly give weight to Job vs Player Skill. When they do however, they have to fix it, pure and simple.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

The dps are doing similar dps , the healers are doing similar hps. Warrior is pile of shit compared to paladin because they lack EVERYTHING.

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/thread 10 char

I'd like to see BRD given more support utility to further distance the class from being just another DPS role.

My hope is that a future patch adds bard songs for group dmg increase, cast/melee speed, passive heal-over-time aura and/or defensive aura, and perhaps a few songs that act as a form of CC to better help out with add control.

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Originally Posted by eyloi

I'd like to see BRD given more support utility to further distance the class from being just another DPS role.

My hope is that a future patch adds bard songs for group dmg increase, cast/melee speed, passive heal-over-time aura and/or defensive aura, and perhaps a few songs that act as a form of CC to better help out with add control.

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More support options would suit a new job that didn't bring similar dps to the other current dps. Bards get a guaranteed slot or 2 every raid for ballad/requiem and sometimes silence.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

More support options would suit a new job that didn't bring similar dps to the other current dps. Bards get a guaranteed slot or 2 every raid for ballad/requiem and sometimes silence.

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I agree with the person your quoted, which is why I suggested a ranger job in another thread. Archer would have 2 options, for the support bard remove some damage in exchange for utility, and the ranger can lose some in exchange for pew pew.

More jobs! ♥

(insert plug for ninja)

This MMO has the best class balance of any MMO I've ever played and any MMO ever created. Also has the most fun imo, a shame about WHM/PLD/BARD though, those classes are realllllly boring and bland, my only other complaint is monk needs counter on fists of earth!

This game already has some very homogenized and rather flavourless classes.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

More support options would suit a new job that didn't bring similar dps to the other current dps. Bards get a guaranteed slot or 2 every raid for ballad/requiem and sometimes silence.

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Clip their damage. A support role shouldn't be anywhere near a pure dpser. Like Mythrella said, devs should consider giving them a pure dps spec, that removes a lot of their utility. This would allow the BRD class to be reconstructed as a pure support slot.

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Originally Posted by Ryutamashiisan

The way i see it the roles for each job are well defined
PLD: Passive Damage Mitigation Tank based on direct damage -
WAR: Reactive Mitigation tank based on HP/ DMG output
WHM: Burst/AoE heal specalist
SCH: Single target heal special/ Support
DRG: Low Skill Medium to High Damage Melee
MNK: High Skill Extremely High Damage Melee
BRD: Low to Medium DMG Ranged/Support Class
BLM: Low Skill/ Medium to High Damage Ranged
SMN: High Skill Extremely High damage Ranged.

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Not to nitpick but your addressing of the dps classes is pretty off and narrowed down.
For example compare a standard SMN rotation to a standard DRG rotation. I play a lot of MNK and DRG at endgame and i can guarantee you that skill gap is very minor. Should be more like this:

DRG: Burst/off GCD based melee dps
MNK: Stance based/ sustained melee dps
BRD: ranged dps/support hybrid
BLM: Burst caster dps
SMN: Pet/DoT based caster dps

My assessment may be off on SMN since they adjusted DoT's and it's no longer a completely clusterf*ck to know when ur dots are up. But the Skill gap between MNK and DRG is VERY large the amount of adjusting it takes on DRG to maximize DPS in comparison to mnk is laughable. DRG literally has to move from side to back back to side, to optimize rotations and its highest damage roattion has no positional requirement. MNK has to contstantly move every combo in order to maximize dps, and take in mob movements on the fly and adjust accordingly and quickly while throwing non gcd's and managing greased lightning a tp. The skill gap beween MNK and DRG is insane, especially when you get into coil or even Titan. I also should have mentioned BRD is low skill as well.

Also mnk is far more position based then stance based, position is absolutely everything

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Originally Posted by Ryutamashiisan

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I dont know which rotation you are talking about but literally every DRG rotation starts at least with a flank (heavy thrust). I think the main difficulty of MNK comes from keeping up buffs like twin snakes rather than positioning. Positioning is fairly straight forward on both classes at endgame, with DRG you start off with a flank buff, place your DOTs and then do you Rear combo for Chaos Thrust and disembowel. With Monk its fairly similar, you place your ToD then work mainly from flank to place all your buffs and DOTs (Twin, DK and Demolish) and once thats done you rotate your basic BS combo which rotates rears and flanks depending on whether you need to refresh TS or DK.

Pretty much both classes run from rear to flank the whole fight. I dont have much trouble with that on either class.

True Thrust > Vorpal Thrust > Full thrust is drgs highest potency combo and has 0 positional requirements, will do optimal damage from anywhere once you transition from flank to rear combo you can stay there or move or move infront of the mob it doesn't matter. If the mob turns mid combo it doesn't present a problem. If the mob moves as you pop off Snap punch you loose 80 potency and most of its dmg. Mnk has 3 dots to manage Demolish Touch of Death and Fracture, 2 of which are off combo cooldown,along with your non GCD's .If a mob runs out range it doesn't mean a darn thing to drgs buffs so long as they get in range before combo expires, monk can loose greased lighting, the basis of its dps in a heartbeat. You have to constantly flux your combos depending on the mobs movements and attacks, if your combos are static 100% of the time there's a bigger issue at hand. Its all the same on training dummies but the skill gap is much larger on actual endgame mobs.

I really dont think you have played DRG much tbh, you are comparing apples to oranges. The basic TT combo is only 20% of what a DRG is doing at endgame, the other 80% are keeping up your DOTs and Buffs and keeping your oGCDs on CD. You say MNK has 3 DOTs to manage, so has DRG: Phlebotomize, Fracture and Chaos Thrust. Thats like saying a SMN is easy to play because he only spams ruin once all DOTs are applied. A DRG cant keep up his buffs if the mob is moving, neither all of his DOTs but can execute his basic combo, a MNK cant get max potency on moving mobs but can place all of his DOTs and Buffs because there is no positional requirement on those.

It boils down to both doing the same, only differently. I do think that MNK is a bit harder but thats only because an additional amount of buffs is harder to manage than an additional amount of off GCD skills.

all you can incorporate drgs DoT's into your rotation witho little to no risk of loosing any buffs whatso ever, yoU MIGHT loose heavy thrust if your slow. The chance of loosing GLIII is high, you maybe have a 2 second window to get them up before you can get tier III up if your fast. Yes my point being you can execute your most basic and power combo REGARDLESS of all of other factors with NO RISK of loosing a good chunk of DPS, MNK is NEVER in that position, unless the mob is standing still, also only 2 of DRG's move require position for chaining, you have to move for heavy thrust and impule drive. If you use impulse drive and the mob turns afterward, you do not have to change your rotation whatsoever, your fine. However if a mob turns mid combo for mnk, monk has to change with it.

Example. Monk uses Dragon kick from side, titan turns to landslide, mnk is now behind it mnk can eaither A) run to the side the dark to use twin snakes or use true strike instead. This is done on the fly after a lighting quick assessment o fthe situation with your buff and what will do the most dps. The same thing happens to drg with ANY of its skills but HT and ID, it doesn't change a thing, NO adjustments needed. Also if a mob moves drg will get buff/de-buff sup much faster then MNK because it doesn't need to build them.

Well its not as black and white like that. First of all, not applying buffs or DOTs is a mayor dps loss for DRG, no question about that, if you only spam 1-2-3 you are not playing the job. TTT is very good to burn down adds but other than that you should always focus on putting up everything else first. Secondly the ramp up part of DRG is huge and comes close to a MNK going to GL2. A DRG starts out with HT-PH-FR-ID-DE-CT for 1 buff/1 debuff and 3 DoTs, thats roughly similar to a MNK doing ToD-FR-BS-TS-DM-DK for 1 buff/1 debuff and 3 Dots. Sure you are not at GL3 by then but you have placed all your important stuff in exactly the same time and GL3 will then come by itself at which point you will easily outdamage the DRG.

In terms of positioning you are ignoring a very essential factor, DRGs have only 2 skills with positional requirements while MNKs have 5, however a MNK does not get punished hard for missing a position, at worst you lose 40 potency but the thing is your combo still continues and your DOT/Buff/Debuff is still getting placed. With DRG its far more punishing, not only do you get lower potency but your Buff is also NOT getting placed and your combo does NOT continue, so you need to start over again, completely messing up your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Manilas

Well, there will always be some specific jobs groups will require in them (such as Caster Dps for Ifrit for Nails).

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While I thought the same, after using the DF for Ifrit and getting three groups in a row with no casters, we only had one group disband right away. We successfully beat Ifrit the other two times, first try. All it took was a little talking beforehand, planning out how we were going to do it. Turns out we had a melee Limit one of them and kill it, whack two more, then use the 2 bar Limit on the last one. It was close, but we got it both times.

remember lolDRG anyone?

With too much specialization there will be exclusion to certain content by players who only want to use the optimum setup for the fastest exp.
That was a lesson learned from XI.

I think all is fine as long as your milk is homogenized

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Secondly the ramp up part of DRG is huge and comes close to a MNK going to GL2. A DRG starts out with HT-PH-FR-ID-DE-CT for 1 buff/1 debuff and 3 DoTs, thats roughly similar to a MNK doing ToD-FR-BS-TS-DM-DK for 1 buff/1 debuff and 3 Dots. Sure you are not at GL3 by then but you have placed all your important stuff in exactly the same time and GL3 will then come by itself at which point you will easily outdamage the DRG.

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Not to nitpick, but that's not a good comparison. Monks should not use Fracture or ToD before GL3. Demolish works because it moves the stance, and getting to GL3 is the top priority. Therefore monk ramp up must include 3 cycles and then the 3 dots (roughly 22s). At which point you are outdamaging the DRG, so you're right on that point but you can't condense it like in your example.

Otherwise, I agree with you. From what I know, DRGs are a close second in difficulty. SMN is medium skill at best, I don't think they're above DRGs but they are above BRDs and BLMs.

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Originally Posted by Ryutamashiisan

Nerfing isnt about homognizing jobs, its about Balance. For example with the bard nerf, Bard DPS aint special, BUT BRD has 100% mobiltily to go with there DPS when most endgame fights require an exceptional amount of moving.

The way i see it the roles for each job are well defined
PLD: Passive Damage Mitigation Tank based on direct damage -
WAR: Reactive Mitigation tank based on HP/ DMG output
WHM: Burst/AoE heal specalist
SCH: Single target heal special/ Support
DRG: Low Skill Medium to High Damage Melee
MNK: High Skill Extremely High Damage Melee
BRD: Low to Medium DMG Ranged/Support Class
BLM: Low Skill/ Medium to High Damage Ranged
SMN: High Skill Extremely High damage Ranged.

Nerfs and players, wont change that.SE shouldn't be making fights that so heavy-handedly give weight to Job vs Player Skill. When they do however, they have to fix it, pure and simple.

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BRD DPS is just as good if not better than melee DPS. I'm not sure why you would say low-medium lol... They're certainly better than BLM, and yet you say medium to high for BLM. BLM is useful for AoEing mobs, but for single target, I've yet to see anyone out-parse a BRD (going all-out of course). And that's not even taking into account DoTs.

Also, are you saying SMN ranged damage is higher than BRD? They're competitive, I'll give you that, but you make it sound, from your list, as if SMN somehow destroys BRD, in which case they should be nerfed. Clearly that's not true.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Not to nitpick, but that's not a good comparison. Monks should not use Fracture or ToD before GL3. Demolish works because it moves the stance, and getting to GL3 is the top priority. Therefore monk ramp up must include 3 cycles and then the 3 dots (roughly 22s). At which point you are outdamaging the DRG, so you're right on that point but you can't condense it like in your example.

Otherwise, I agree with you. From what I know, DRGs are a close second in difficulty. SMN is medium skill at best, I don't think they're above DRGs but they are above BRDs and BLMs.

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I agree with you there, i just chose this specific rotation for comparisons sake. Although i do like to start with ToD/PH sometimes, while the tank is still busy with positioning.

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Originally Posted by Azazela

This game already has some very homogenized and rather flavourless classes.

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So.. care to back your statement up? Most classes have their own interesting mechanic/schtick.

So I enter an instance, I am DPS. I do what I can. Fail in the fight. Get told Class B does much better for this fight.
I then switch to Class B, do the fight better. Job done.

I enter an instance, I am tank. I tank the mobs. I have a hard time. Get told Class B does it easier for this fight.
I then switch to Class B, do the fight easier. Job done.

I enter an instance, I am a healer. Hard to quick heal things, long cast times. Get told Class B does it easier on this fight.
I then switch to Class B, do the fight easier. Job done.

I don't understand the reluctance of people to understand the concept.
If you want to stay 1 class, good: just be ready to have a harder time on some encounters and an easier time on others.
The barrage of whining...it's aggregating blood clots in my Frontal Lobe..nggg...nuuhhh, gwaaaa

(This is of course, speculating upon your next queue).