thank you SE for realizing that warrior were gimped in endgame

from the live letter

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

■ In Regards to WAR
The Binding Coil of Bahamut
Especially for Turn 1 and 4, strategies have been employed that the development team hadn't considered (such as only using paladins to live through multiple stacks of a buff the boss has), and a situation has developed where paladins are favored over warrior. We apologize for this. In patch 2.1 we will be making adjustments so that warriors can do the content that paladins can do.

Adjustments to Stun
A warrior’s stun is different than paladin’s in the sense that it can be used at any time separate from the global cooldown, which is an advantage, but for specific content where stuns need to performed multiple times or with precise timing, it’s difficult to utilize warrior’s stun, so we will be making adjustments in patch 2.1 to improve its usability.

We also plan for a variety of other adjustments for warrior in patch 2.1.

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with such changes being implemented, WAR tanks will be viable for stun duty, greater survivability (than what we have now) and a equal tank spot to take in endgame.

again, thanks SE

I actually find Turn 1 fairly easy to tank on Warrior, while Turn 2 was kind of iffy. <_<

But yeah, i am curious what SE will do to Warrior without gimping Paladin like they did at a certain point in 1.0. Both should be viable and have their place, but also both shouldn't be too similiar in playstyle and dynamics.

While PLD should have an advantage in a certain encounter, same should go for WAR without making one of them useless. I think it is kind of tricky to create such environment, but we will see i guess.

they are also gonna do something about their squishyness. good thing is they are not gonna hit paladins but just buff warriors.

Yoshida talked about that Coil was easier for Paladin than it should be. But instead to nerf Paladin they want to buff the Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Yoshida talked about that Coil was easier for Paladin than it should be. But instead to nerf Paladin they want to buff the Warrior.

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which is good IMO. nerfing is NEVER the way. in fact, i applause SE for not nerfing paladin defense as it would have been a mistake to do so.

And what good would nerfing PLD do? Buffing WAR is the better solution. It's far easier to buff something and then scale it back if needed, because direct nerfs affect a wide range of things and generally pisses people off.

Nerfing PLD has no point because even with Shield Oath, we're still INCREDIBLY squishy against something like Caduceus. Why would they nerf one tank, and end up with two jobs that can't survive tanking Coil?

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Originally Posted by Yucie

Nerfing PLD has no point because even with Shield Oath, we're still INCREDIBLY squishy against something like Caduceus. Why would they nerf one tank, and end up with two jobs that can't survive tanking Coil?

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Let aside that Warrior can tank Caduceus just as fine as PLD can, buffing Warrior could end up in the same way it did end up in 1.0. Warrior will be the "real" tank and noone wants to use PLD anymore. Do not get me wrong, i do want SE to find a good balance between those 2 Jobs, but i am not sure if "just" buffing Warrior will be the Solution, or could be the only viable one.

Well... looks like I'm off to change my sig.
SE, I am slightly disappoint. Assuming we'll have to relearn some skills? Perhaps they'll just give us some inherent defense... dammit.

I'm just kind of baffled that they seriously never considered groups would run coil with just paladin tanks...

It was more that they had a specific strategy in mind for Coil, but since its difficulty partly comes from it not guiding you like other dungeons, players were left to find their own ways, so of course they went with the "easier" tank.

It's a really hard balance, because SE has to tune WAR and PLD so finely that the player base doesn't find some reason to prefer one over the other.

So, if they buff WAR to be able to tank as well as PLD, wouldn't everyone run with WARs then since they also do more damage than PLDs?

I'm kind of concerned as to if they have any way of making it so there isn't one tank job that's objectively better than the other one.

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Originally Posted by Lisotte

So, if they buff WAR to be able to tank as well as PLD, wouldn't everyone run with WARs then since they also do more damage than PLDs?

I'm kind of concerned as to if they have any way of making it so there isn't one tank job that's objectively better than the other one.

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no warriors dont do more dps than paladins.

i dont mind burning a single wrath to use brutal swing... just saying

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Originally Posted by Nero

But yeah, i am curious what SE will do to Warrior without gimping Paladin like they did at a certain point in 1.0. Both should be viable and have their place, but also both shouldn't be too similiar in playstyle and dynamics.

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Turn 1-2 was great. Turn 4 was challenging but fun. They're making it easier to play in the sense that it's more viable for more people. They're lessening the learning curve, so to speak. As it is there's a lot that the WAR has to know and the Heals have to know when a WAR is tanking and it wasn't viable for duty finder or pick up groups even if it was viable for the content and people were abandoning it basically more for that reason than anything else.

Now what they've said specifically that they're lessening the heal buff penalty on Inner Beast and buffing it's stun debuffs a bit, by putting it more on terms of shieldbash. But we need a lot more details on this and we weren't given them.

That sounds like some good changes for Warrior, however I hope they plan on making PLD AoE better at holding hate then as well as it's Much easier to hold AoE hate on War than PLD as well

What they should do is make some drastic changes to the wrath system. Each ability I burn should lower my wrath by 1-2 levels of wrath, and not require me to rebuild five levels of wrath just so I can Inner beast for 1500hp recovery while getting hit for almost 20k in damage by the time I can build up 1 more inner beast to cure for a measly 1500hp. If I can use inner beast 5x in a row and a coil boss does 50% dmg to me every turn ability why shouldn't I be able to spam inner beast to cover myself and put less strain on the whm. I don't have 40% dmg reduction that paladins have so at least let the class spam their spike HP recovery to make up for that, or add a 15 sec drain to inner beast that recovers 150% hp of damage done while I'm building wrath back up.

I just hope the tanks aren't homogenized too much. The differences make it interesting, but I must agree that warriors need to be buffed.

To Fix Warrior they should (imo)
Defiance: Make defiance grant 20% defense boost when we have full stacks of wrath as well as increased healing
Buff Thrill of Battle: 20% increase/heal lower cooldown to 60 seconds
Foresight: Lower CD to 60 seconds
Stun: On the GCD with lower cd, give us an off the GCD silence just like PLD

Remove Foresight from cross class

Give PLD access to cure II/III for loss of foresight. Since when is there a PLD that can't cure themselves, Cure I is useless 99% of the time.

Or something like that.

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Originally Posted by astrobear

no warriors dont do more dps than paladins.

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You're wrong, even a bad WAR will do twice the damage a pro PLD would do.

The only thing I don't understand from that was the one about being able to take attacks with 3 stacks on the boss or yourself. Which is in reference to the snake damage stacks in turn 1 and the ads bots putting debuff stacks on your in turn 2.

3 stacks in full DL really isn't that bad i don't understand where that is coming from.

I am happy warrior is getting its stun fixed, it needed it. The other part we will need to see in live before we can tell what effect it will really have.

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Originally Posted by poh

You're wrong, even a bad WAR will do twice the damage a pro PLD would do.

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Idk why warriors care about this. No one else in the group cares about the tank's damage.

SE first message to the community:

"Guys you suck at war, please L2P before whining".

Two weeks later:

"Damn, these Plds are too good, they use invincible when they are about to take heavy damage and not during the prebuff phase before the fight. Should we ban the people using it this way ?
-Nah, it's borderline, but they will whine more if we ban all the PLDs that used invincible to survive bosses when they have lots of stacks. Let's buff warriors instead."

Gotta love it :)

I don't care about damage as a war, I just care that I can survive as well as a Paladin and be a viable solution for a job class SE is classifying the job as. If they meant for war to be DPS then they should change the job as so, but as it is right now it's a tweener that can't do either, and it's basically the only job that's the bastard child of this game that nobody wants for end game.

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Originally Posted by poh

You're wrong, even a bad WAR will do twice the damage a pro PLD would do.

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NO YOU ARE WRONG. it has been HIGHLY discussed in the tank forum that pld and wars do about the same dps.

in the best case scenario, wars do a LITTLE bit more damage,but the dps that the war has is so small that it is negligible.

edit

LOL ,a bad war cant do half the damage of a good pld!maybe a bad MARA could do twice the damage than a good pld.that only if the mara use alot of cross skill and use dps gear.

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Originally Posted by Lisotte

So, if they buff WAR to be able to tank as well as PLD, wouldn't everyone run with WARs then since they also do more damage than PLDs?

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I doubt that WAR will ever be truly equal to PLD at high damage rates, and WAR damage advantage is 1-2% of party DPS over PLD.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

i dont mind burning a single wrath to use brutal swing... just saying

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Impossible. Brutal Swing is an MRD ability; it cannot cost Wrath because Marauders have no Wrath.

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Originally Posted by poh

You're wrong, even a bad WAR will do twice the damage a pro PLD would do.

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I assume this is a joke.

Isn't it pretty much common practice for a MMO to incorporate content designed toward certain roles or class mechanics? Like some content would cater to range dps, others to melee. Some for one type of tanking mechanics etc. Not saying that warriors don't need some type of improvement. All classes/jobs should be viable, but certain content should favor different party setups versus others.

A simple solution IMO would be to have a buff warriors/mrd can keep up assuming they keep up with their rotations that increases parry chance and amount of damage parried. The modifier could be vitality since that's kind of what warriors are. High HP tanks. Maybe the buff would be applied via Butcher's Block and have it stack similar to Wrath. This way mrd and war both can benefit.

I initially thought it could be applied for each successful parry, but then I though it would be too rng dependent, and if you encounter a boss that hits slow and hard, it wouldn't work well. It needs to be a buff that can be controlled by the player and viable to keep at the same time.

It can be kept for a constant mitigation effect, or consumed to trigger a cool down that increases the amount significantly. Maybe by 50%. Have like a 90 or 120 second CD. I can see warriors being parry based while paladins rely on block. That way the playstyles stay the same as they are, but the uniqueness of the class/job is there.

Just me brainstorming.

Also, increase healing received from wrath stacks. As a whm, I only see maybe a 90-100 hp increase for a cure I at 5 stacks. To me that seems lackluster given the large HP of a warrior. For a paladin that would be ok, but for a warrior? Nope. Sure, warriors can use Convalesence, but that's a 3 minute CD and it's shared with paladin. Warrior needs to be less of a mp sponge. It's ok if it is, but my god it's terrible currently. It needs to have its own unique way of being healed as well. Hence my suggestion on the Wrath stacks.

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Originally Posted by PsychologyPhD

Isn't it pretty much common practice for a MMO to incorporate content designed toward certain roles or class mechanics?

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Generally considered bad design. Catering to one class doesn't make the game balanced, it just locks out classes from certain content.

The rage in Hard Primal Ifrit battle when DF matches two warriors together always make me laugh.

Paladins are obviously mathematically superior tanks than Warriors due to their defensive cooldowns. If keeping hate is not an issue, the superior survival cooldowns end the argument.
Warriors are much more manly, of course, but SE will never really know what to do with them. Just give us an option to DPS, maybe just let the Marauder line DPS or something.

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Originally Posted by astrobear

no warriors dont do more dps than paladins.

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False. They absolutely do more damage. It just isn't that much more.

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Originally Posted by Pervasive

Paladins are obviously mathematically superior tanks than Warriors due to their defensive cooldowns. If keeping hate is not an issue, the superior survival cooldowns end the argument.
Warriors are much more manly, of course, but SE will never really know what to do with them. Just give us an option to DPS, maybe just let the Marauder line DPS or something.

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Pretty much. I don't care if a tank can pump out good dps or hold hate far superior to anything else. If you can't take hits and survive, then IMO you are not a tank. Just a gimped DD with high enmity generation.

Tanks by definition are a tough, hard to move, and hard to destroy object. Warriors are tough and hard to move, but they are easily destroyed (compared to their sword and board counterpart). There-in lies the problem.

How about add a defensive boost for every level of wrath (8% up to 40% dmg reduction) and each ability used (inner beast, steel cyclone, etc.) reduces wrath by two levels and reduces the defense boost.

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Originally Posted by PsychologyPhD

Isn't it pretty much common practice for a MMO to incorporate content designed toward certain roles or class mechanics?

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There was a time in WoW where this was true. For example, Paladin tanks were great for AoE tanking trash, but were left out of high-end raids where the bosses actually did damage to their target. But for a while now, WoW has tried to make the differences negligible. Min/Maxers will always divine a reason to favor one class over another for specific content and fights, but as a design strategy, it's better to have things as balanced as possible. You shouldn't have to sit players out (or force players to level and gear 2 jobs simultaneously) to clear content.

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Originally Posted by actionjackson83

How about add a defensive boost for every level of wrath (8% up to 40% dmg reduction) and each ability used (inner beast, steel cyclone, etc.) reduces wrath by two levels and reduces the defense boost.

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There would never be a reason to burn Wrath stacks on a boss.

And filed under "unintended consequences", this would mean future bosses would have to hit like trucks loaded with more trucks towing a bunch of other trucks.

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Originally Posted by FAVisceglia

There would never be a reason to burn Wrath stacks on a boss.

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This is why tying the healing bonus (continuous mitigation) to your Inner Beast resource (unscaled burst mitigation) was not a sound concept to begin with. Fixing it will require moving the healing bonus over to Defiance or scaling Inner Beast to incoming damage. The former seems the more likely route.

Seeing this makes me angry at how SE did nothing in FFXI to help PLD when it was shoved off to the side for NIN.

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Originally Posted by astrobear

which is good IMO. nerfing is NEVER the way. in fact, i applause SE for not nerfing paladin defense as it would have been a mistake to do so.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

And what good would nerfing PLD do? Buffing WAR is the better solution. It's far easier to buff something and then scale it back if needed, because direct nerfs affect a wide range of things and generally pisses people off.

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Could you guys post this in all the smug "Bard is gonna get nerfed" threads?

Anyone else not liking SE's attitude toward this? There really will be no diversity aside from your role if they keep this up. They will always notice the players prefer x over y so they buff y or nerf x to make everything equal until players find another reason to prefer one thing over another. I personally disagree with this method.