[dev1058] Response on new Armoury System Class/Job info

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Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

Armoury System

• Classes
  
  Actions will undergo major revisions, along with both the underlying mechanics and conditions.
  
  By major revisions, not only do we mean the tweaking of effects and potency of existing actions - we will work from the ground up to redesign and reassign actions based on clearly identified class roles.
  
  We will also make a number of changes as part of our reexamination of how actions are equipped and the character requirements for doing so. First, actions learned by each class will be set to the action bar by default when playing as that class. Also, we will be making some actions settable on any class, while other "class-defining" actions obtained at higher ranks will be usable only by that class.
  
  
  
• Jobs
  
  The job system - that series-defining trademark - will be implemented in FINAL FANTASY XIV (details such as specific jobs TBA). Quests to unlock each job will become available once you have reached a certain rank in the corresponding class.
  Rather than being advanced versions of classes, we would like players to think of jobs as specialized playing styles optimized for partying. While playing as a particular job will render you unable to equip certain actions of other classes, you will be compensated with access to exclusive actions, which can be acquired through quests.
  
  In practice, players will find the existing classes effective when playing solo or in certain party setups. Jobs, however, will shine in party situations where specific skill sets are demanded. Now, you didn’t hear this from me, but there are also rumors circulating that quests for obtaining job-exclusive equipment are also in the pipes.
  We at the development team are currently hard at work on the job system, and expect to have details to share with you soon.

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I'm curious, how many read it like it was going the way of FFXI; lv class to a point, unlocks job (e.g. lv Pugilist class to 30 unlocks Monk job).

It read to me like it was FFXI +1 lol. I read it as this: Level Conjurer to 10, unlock job for Blackmage. Level Conjurer to 20, unlock job for Summoner.

I was kinda hoping for something like Tactics lol. Be creative and level not just one class for special jobs but multiple classes would unlock new specialized jobs too; Level Conjurer and Thaumaturge to 30 each and unlock Timemage job (though that wouldn't seem out of the question with the description given).

I like the info on the change. Allows the game to be more dynamic and let people specialize in what they like. You can have your casual LNC that has his MRD & CON skills and solos quests to get clink-clink to buy shiny stuff and you can have your elitist hardcores who have that one job that is really good at doing that one thing and wears the shiny stuff that dropped off that dungeon beast that ate your girlfriend's mother's brother. (Plus it leaves it open to be like Tactics with class + class makes new job or even job + job makes new class/job lol)

So I guess so this post has a point... I wanted to gather all the opionons on just the Armoury System and have it attached to the correct DEV tag.

What i got out of it was unlock jobs allow you to basically lock yourself into specialized versions of current classes, gaining some benifits, loosing some.

Example: Lets say in the new system gladiator has an epic +enmity skill that any DoW job can use. Unlock paladin, and switch to it, and suddenly you have an epic awesome AOE +enmity skill with half the cool down timer. BUT, you can no longer use it on other jobs.

That's the impression I got from all that.

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Originally Posted by JAH

I was kinda hoping for something like Tactics lol. Be creative and level not just one class for special jobs but multiple classes would unlock new specialized jobs too; Level Conjurer and Thaumaturge to 30 each and unlock Timemage job (though that wouldn't seem out of the question with the description given).

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Yeah, they could still do this, like in order to unlock Dark Knight you need Gladiator and Thaumaturge at level 30.

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Originally Posted by JAH

I was kinda hoping for something like Tactics lol. Be creative and level not just one class for special jobs but multiple classes would unlock new specialized jobs too; Level Conjurer and Thaumaturge to 30 each and unlock Timemage job (though that wouldn't seem out of the question with the description given).

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Oh heck yes! I would totally love if they did that.

I'm also glad they're not completely wiping away the old classes to replace them with the jobs. The more I think about it, the more I think it's a good idea to keep both. The jobs don't exist separately, they grow and expand upon the more casual class system. Like a natural flow of skill (and commitment to the game), which I think is a brilliant move.

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Originally Posted by origamikitsune

What i got out of it was unlock jobs allow you to basically lock yourself into specialized versions of current classes, gaining some benifits, loosing some.

Example: Lets say in the new system gladiator has an epic +enmity skill that any DoW job can use. Unlock paladin, and switch to it, and suddenly you have an epic awesome AOE +enmity skill with half the cool down timer. BUT, you can no longer use it on other jobs.

That's the impression I got from all that.

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Ya I got that too, that jobs would have action specialization that would only be available to that job. Like the "Requires Polearm" but "Requires Geomancer". (D: if they only made a Tactics MMO they'd cause so much love and rage across the fanbase lol)

i dont think the jobs are replacing classes, i think they are overlaying, either that or it will get the same skills as whatever the base class is, implying that skills will be got via quests, kinda makes it seem like you wont get them from leveling, so i think it wont be a leveling thing.

I think for anyone who played FFXI, you can (to an extent) see it as being somewhat like Scholar. In their base form (like our current classes) they had access to a range of skills and could do most magical things to a decent standard. Then on top of that they had Dark arts (black magic boosts and new black magic spells) and Light arts (Light magic spells etc). By specialising in one, they forego the other but do have the flexibility to change (although I imagine it won't be 'on the spot' like a SCH could).

Where was that posted? just curious

first post in dev tracker. It's a way bigger and awesome post of that cut

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

Where was that posted? just curious

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Here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...995#post138995

I'm hoping that unlocking the job is just that and you are not limited to the Class that unlocked it for using it.

Because some jobs are not specific to a specific weapon and lots of jobs share various weapons.

As it stands it sounds something like


"Skill up using Swords, Unlock Paladin Job Quest for being Sword Rank 30, After Completion of Paladin Job Class you can equip the Paladin Job and specialize in the Tanking Role."

But the two points a lot of us want to know is

1. Can a paladin then be equipped along with Pugilist?, Or Lancer?(IE any Job can be equipped by Any Class, but only unlocked by one Class) Or is it only for Gladiators. (Boring)

2. Is there a job level or is it just a specialization title that offers benefits specific to the Job. IE Black Mage can AOE even if not using a Magic Weapon Class. Thief Deals more damage when attacking from behind. Etc.

@ cair they are going to be advanced versions of our weapons. Prob pugilist into monk. Archer into ranger. And you get class specific skills from it. I woul think it would be similar to ffxi sub job like Archer/Ranger (if specilization was turned on) But you can have it off.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

@ cair they are going to be advanced versions of our weapons. Prob pugilist into monk. Archer into ranger. And you get class specific skills from it. I woul think it would be similar to ffxi sub job like Archer/Ranger (if specilization was turned on) But you can have it off.

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I understand that for unlocking purposes. But 90% of the "Jobs" in traditional final fantasies are not limited to one weapon and forcing them to be will be rather boring.

I don't mind that Gladiator will obviously unlock Thief, Paladin, Red Mage Etc.

But Thief doesn't always use Swords, It can use Fist Weapons, Daggers, and ranged weapons. amongst others.
Paladin can use swords, great swords, lances and hammers.
Red mage can use swords, clubs, daggers, staffs and fist weapons. etc.

My only concern is how the players will handle these changes. I wanted to play ffxiv because it was gonna be different then ffxi. I enjoyed playing ffxi, minus getting told how to play my character, how to play the jobs I was on, and how to equip my character. If/when I pay for my character I want to play and group up to have fun with my style of play, not a style forced on ,me. I do not want to see heavy elitism in this game as it was in ffxi. With players requiring so many rules and expectations.

I play video games to relax and get away from my family. I tend to get teased often for my likes since I'm the only one in my family who enjoys them. I do not getting the same thing in game. XD

We already have level linking rules, and rules to purposly fail levequests. (which are stupid imo) Lets just enjoy the game and not force play styles on others this time. :)

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I understand that for unlocking purposes. But 90% of the "Jobs" in traditional final fantasies are not limited to one weapon and forcing them to be will be rather boring.

I don't mind that Gladiator will obviously unlock Thief, Paladin, Red Mage Etc.

But Thief doesn't always use Swords, It can use Fist Weapons, Daggers, and ranged weapons. amongst others.
Paladin can use swords, great swords, lances and hammers.
Red mage can use swords, clubs, daggers, staffs and fist weapons. etc.

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I'm pretty sure they are only adding jobs tied to a certain weapon. Plus ff has more jobs then just thf or monk. ff tactics has tons of weapon specific classes.
also in ffxi red mage didn't possess a natual staff skill. :)

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

I'm pretty sure they are only adding jobs tied to a certain weapon. Plus ff has more jobs then just thf or monk. ff tactics has tons of weapon specific classes.
also in ffxi red mage didn't possess a natual staff skill. :)

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None of the jobs in Tactics were locked to specific weapons. They could all use a range of weapons and some once trained could use any weapon with the proper "Use Weapon" trait skill.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

None of the jobs in Tactics were locked to specific weapons. They could all use a range of weapons and some once trained could use any weapon with the proper "Use Weapon" trait skill.

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Sorry Cair, I think at this point it's fair to say your idea's out the window :(

It doesn't make sense that you'd select your weapon in order to specialise in a class, then select a further specialisation only to then be allowed to change weapon. It removes the foundation the system's built on and sort of contradicts the whole armoury thing.

They could let each specialisation have a twist on the base-class' weapon though couldnt they? Like for instance in FFXI DNC focussed on a different type of dagger to a thief, same with RDM/PLD/BLU and swords(ish)

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Originally Posted by Sephr

Sorry Cair, I think at this point it's fair to say your idea's out the window :(

It doesn't make sense that you'd select your weapon in order to specialise in a class, then select a further specialisation only to then be allowed to change weapon. It removes the foundation the system's built on and sort of contradicts the whole armoury thing.

They could let each specialisation have a twist on the base-class' weapon though couldnt they? Like for instance in FFXI DNC focussed on a different type of dagger to a thief, same with RDM/PLD/BLU and swords(ish)

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So you want it so that Archer unlocks Ranger then once Musketeer/Gun Weapon Class is released it can't be a Ranger.

That makes no sense and will upset the FFXI fans who enjoyed being a Firearm Ranger.

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Originally Posted by Physic

i dont think the jobs are replacing classes, i think they are overlaying, either that or it will get the same skills as whatever the base class is, implying that skills will be got via quests, kinda makes it seem like you wont get them from leveling, so i think it wont be a leveling thing.

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Yah since unlocking job skills seems to be coming from quests it doesn't seem like jobs will have levels, but if all job abilities and the quests for unlocking those abilities are not immediately available once the job is unlocked, then it seems there will have to be some kind of threshold that you will have to pass before unlocking the next quest for the next skill. Maybe you unlock a job at say lvl 20 class rank, then every 5 levels (25, 30, 35, ...) you can do a new job quest for a new job skill.

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Originally Posted by Sephr

It doesn't make sense that you'd select your weapon in order to specialise in a class, then select a further specialisation only to then be allowed to change weapon. It removes the foundation the system's built on and sort of contradicts the whole armoury thing.

They could let each specialisation have a twist on the base-class' weapon though couldnt they? Like for instance in FFXI DNC focussed on a different type of dagger to a thief, same with RDM/PLD/BLU and swords(ish)

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I don't see how it contradicts the armoury system.

Speculation of how the job system might work:
1)You level up your archer to 20 and unlock "Ranger".
*they didn't say anything about ranger having a new weapon or being it's own entity, it won't have it's own level(1-50,etc) because it's not a class and its abilities will come from quests, so you will always have to be a class in addition to that job.
2)You equip Ranger so you are a lvl20 Archer/Ranger. Your Ranger blocks you from using certain abilities from other classes on your action bar (to reinforce your specialization), but gives you some additional "Ranger" abilities (improve your effectiveness in your specialization).
3)Guess: Every 5 levels (25, 30, 35, ...) you unlock a new quest for a new ability or abilities.

This doesn't say anything about whether or not you can use "Ranger" with other classes. Maybe "Ranger" is exclusive to Archer, maybe not; maybe it can be used by Musketeer as well. Maybe unlocking Ranger can be done by leveling up an Archer to lvl 20 OR leveling up a Musketeer to lvl 20.

We really don't know at this point because the details are not fully fleshed out all they gave us was an outline of how it will generally work.

It makes sense to me that:
a) Each class should have more than one job choice (playstyle/specialization)
b) Some classes can share a common job (playstyle/specialization)

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

So you want it so that Archer unlocks Ranger then once Musketeer/Gun Weapon Class is released it can't be a Ranger.

That makes no sense and will upset the FFXI fans who enjoyed being a Firearm Ranger.

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CORSAIR CORSAIR CORSAIR firearm problem solved -.- and it would be the logical choice in that matter anyways since musketeer's are also pirates in LL not just the MRD so the job could either be called corsair or pirate but either way they are the same thing

I like the idea of the job system but I still have my concerns. Like what class do I need to level to unlock certain Job's, how many Jobs are unlocked per class and the fact that now those jobs are tied to 1 weapon only by the sounds of it.

Am I going to have to level Gladiator a class I am not fond of just to get access to DRK?

Will Gladiator unlock just Paladin or will it also unlock Dark Knight too. CON would most likely unlock WHM and BLM so that should be at least two Job's per Class.

With PLD unlocked am I now tied to using just Sword and Shield, will I be able to use a Great Sword? What about DRK will a new weapon class be released for that Job maybe Scythe or Great Sword but then would that mean other classes can't use that weapon.

So many questions I would like answering as I would like to know if I am currently making progress in the right classes to have access to the actual jobs I desire.

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Originally Posted by Carpe

I don't see how it contradicts the armoury system.

Speculation of how the job system might work:
1)You level up your archer to 20 and unlock "Ranger".
*they didn't say anything about ranger having a new weapon or being it's own entity, it won't have it's own level(1-50,etc) because it's not a class and its abilities will come from quests, so you will always have to be a class in addition to that job.
2)You equip Ranger so you are a lvl20 Archer/Ranger. Your Ranger blocks you from using certain abilities from other classes on your action bar (to reinforce your specialization), but gives you some additional "Ranger" abilities (improve your effectiveness in your specialization).
3)Guess: Every 5 levels (25, 30, 35, ...) you unlock a new quest for a new ability or abilities.

This doesn't say anything about whether or not you can use "Ranger" with other classes. Maybe "Ranger" is exclusive to Archer, maybe not; maybe it can be used by Musketeer as well. Maybe unlocking Ranger can be done by leveling up an Archer to lvl 20 OR leveling up a Musketeer to lvl 20.

We really don't know at this point because the details are not fully fleshed out all they gave us was an outline of how it will generally work.

It makes sense to me that:
a) Each class should have more than one job choice (playstyle/specialization)
b) Some classes can share a common job (playstyle/specialization)

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Actually, regarding the concept, this might very well turn out like you proposed(titles), but maybe with more constraints, i-e maybe not all jobs will be playable with all weapons, but logically there will still be several possible combinations (ref. to AlexiaKidd post ^).

The only thing that I'm not too enthusiast about what they proposed is that jobs are not just bonuses, they are specializations (with associated trade-offs) so it would not always be a good idea to have a job depending on the way you play.

But of course I'll wait to see how all of this gets implemented. With the few info we have the results could go in several directions, let's see how much depth and customization they bring to the system.

Some of you are forgetting that Matsui clarified that the Job System WILL NOT be advanced classes. Therefore, no, the classes will not be replaced by jobs, and they wont have "advanced" versions of weapons.

Whatever weapon you have equipped = class
Whatever role you want to play = job

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Originally Posted by JAH

I'm curious, how many read it like it was going the way of FFXI; lv class to a point, unlocks job (e.g. lv Pugilist class to 30 unlocks Monk job).

It read to me like it was FFXI +1 lol. I read it as this: Level Conjurer to 10, unlock job for Blackmage. Level Conjurer to 20, unlock job for Summoner.

I was kinda hoping for something like Tactics lol. Be creative and level not just one class for special jobs but multiple classes would unlock new specialized jobs too; Level Conjurer and Thaumaturge to 30 each and unlock Timemage job (though that wouldn't seem out of the question with the description given).

I like the info on the change. Allows the game to be more dynamic and let people specialize in what they like. You can have your casual LNC that has his MRD & CON skills and solos quests to get clink-clink to buy shiny stuff and you can have your elitist hardcores who have that one job that is really good at doing that one thing and wears the shiny stuff that dropped off that dungeon beast that ate your girlfriend's mother's brother. (Plus it leaves it open to be like Tactics with class + class makes new job or even job + job makes new class/job lol)

So I guess so this post has a point... I wanted to gather all the opionons on just the Armoury System and have it attached to the correct DEV tag.

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I agree with you too. The final Fantasy Tactics way would be amazing.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

I agree with you too. The Final Fantasy Tactics way would be amazing.

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Yes please! I also think new classes should be unlocked the same way. Like Musketeer or Arcanist.

Also, SE, do not be afraid to show us Hunter class! the Crossbow user! :D Classes should be the main part of the job system actually, because Rangers could use Bows, GreatBows, and Crossbows! ^_^

Here's a way to think of it, the way I understand it. It'll essentially be a "spec" system like most MMOs have now. Where let's say you have 3 jobs to unlock, those 3 jobs would function as three "skill trees" where you spec into one for a specific benefit or role. For instance, gladiator may have Paladin, Thief, and Red Mage. Paladin would be tank, Thief would be melee damage, and Red Mage would be spell damage. This is the way I understand it, and the way that makes a good deal of sense.

What the "new" system sounds like to me is sort of a mixture of both options Yoshida mentioned about a month and a half or two back: "Jobs" will function sort of like title specializations that you can equip over your current class, and you'll gain benefits and abilities that are only available(I think) to said job. However, it seems that you have to advance far enough into a specific class to be able to unlock said job. Whether this means that we'll see entirely new skill trees or whether jobs will simply be some sort of augment remains to be seen.

I think I like this. Sounds like an interesting way of incorporating the new(Armory) with the old(Jobs). Of course I'd still like to see more info about it.

What really excites me is going on quests to unlock abilities. That's some awesome stuff right there.

I get a Final Fantasy Tactics vibe from this, I am hoping that some specializations will require multiple jobs of a certain level to open up. Like Paladin be 30 Glad 30 Conj or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

I agree with you too. The final Fantasy Tactics way would be amazing.

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I have to agree.

Reading the info again i realized that it is too soon and we have too little info to really understand what they are trying to do with the new armory system. As someone stated before, i too now believe it is a spec system like WOW's talent tree and what other mmos are doing right now.

You play a conjurer and then you unlock White mage. You remain a conjurer but your Job is a white mage, meaning you get healing spells and buffs etc...

Just like in wow you can play a priest but you can specialize into healing or damage dealing(shadow priest)

I believe these jobs will be something resembling the talent trees in wow.

I've always thought they were going to go in this direction because of all of the already implemented lore surrounding the class guilds and by removing them, it would be too great of a task. They'd have to basically change everything regarding the main story line and remove all of the hard work around the class missions.

Including a job system that is unlocked by ranking a class or multiple classes gives more reason to add lore surrounding the already implemented classes. There could be Red Mages for instance who are mages excommunicated from the Conjurer and Thaumaturge guilds or Thieves who are former Pugilists turned bandits and dropped their H2H for dual daggers. It just makes more sense to do it this way and I'm glad they decided to.

I don't see mixing and matching jobs with classes working out.

Assuming each class has two jobs associated with it, we have 14 combinations. If we allow mix-and match, that's potentially 7 classes x 14 jobs = 98 combinations. Far too complex a system to balance.

As much as I would love to play a paladin with an ax, I'd prefer to see the more limited version succeed rather than a repetition of the problems we originally had with the great-on-paper original armoury system.

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Originally Posted by Lerris

I don't see mixing and matching jobs with classes working out.

Assuming each class has two jobs associated with it, we have 14 combinations. If we allow mix-and match, that's potentially 7 classes x 14 jobs = 98 combinations. Far too complex a system to balance.

As much as I would love to play a paladin with an ax, I'd prefer to see the more limited version succeed rather than a repetition of the problems we originally had with the great-on-paper original armoury system.

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You balance classes and job separately, you don't balance each single combination.

In XI we had what, 18 jobs? so with the sub-jobs it's 18jobs x 17 possible sub-jobs = 306. It worked out not too bad

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Originally Posted by northernsky

You balance classes and job separately, you don't balance each single combination.

In XI we had what, 18 jobs? so with the sub-jobs it's 18jobs x 17 possible sub-jobs = 306. It worked out not too bad

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If you balance them separately, you're doing it wrong. That's how you end up with a broken game.

At release, FFXI had 11 jobs. (110 ). It also didn't have mix-and-match abilities from other classes. And it worked out not too bad after extensive rebalancing ( not at release ).

And releasing it in a limited fashion does not rule out opening it up to other combinations later. But, it needs to be right the first time in order for SE to save the game.

1 word: EPIC

- Looking forward to try this.

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Originally Posted by northernsky

You balance classes and job separately, you don't balance each single combination.

In XI we had what, 18 jobs? so with the sub-jobs it's 18jobs x 17 possible sub-jobs = 306. It worked out not too bad

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How many of those 306 were actually viable? Some main jobs were far from useful as a sub under any circumstance. And many were far from useful under many circumstances. It encouraged experimentation, that's true, and while some experiments succeeded (/SMN for mage comes to mind), many simply were not particularly viable.

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Originally Posted by Lerris

If you balance them separately, you're doing it wrong. That's how you end up with a broken game.

At release, FFXI had 11 jobs. (110 ). It also didn't have mix-and-match abilities from other classes. And it worked out not too bad after extensive rebalancing ( not at release ).

And releasing it in a limited fashion does not rule out opening it up to other combinations later. But, it needs to be right the first time in order for SE to save the game.

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Yup I agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Altano

How many of those 306 were actually viable? Some main jobs were far from useful as a sub under any circumstance. And many were far from useful under many circumstances. It encouraged experimentation, that's true, and while some experiments succeeded (/SMN for mage comes to mind), many simply were not particularly viable.

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I would say at least 6 combinations per main class were viable, 2-3 were very good. But probably not at the moment they were released as pointed out by another poster