I'm confused by this ability. "Restores 10 points of durability after each step for the next three steps." What counts as a step, what does not?
To use manipulation and steady hand, do you "waste" a step of one or the other? Is it even worth it then?
Manipulation
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10-18-2013, 10:41 PMSimarilManipulation
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10-18-2013, 11:06 PMHEC
Step is anything that deduct (in normal situation) 10 points from durability and you'll not "waste" Manipulation if used before Steady hand as it counts as step as well. Basically using Manipulation will grant you additional 3 steps. Alternatives are (with various CP cost) Waste Not and Master's Mend (plus their II variations) so you need to calculate the cost per step gained versus how much CP you can spend on "extra steps" / durability increasing commands to find the optimum for the current situation.
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10-18-2013, 11:19 PMNeoflux
A step is ANY ability you use during a craft. You only waste manipulation if at the end of any of the next 3 steps the item durability is at maximum.
For example, if you use Manipulation at 20/40, then you use steady hand (30/40), great strides (40/40), ingenuity (40/40). The last 10 durability that manipulation would have restored after the last skill is wasted because you did not use any abilities that cost durability.
If instead you use Manipulation at 20/40, then steady hands (30/40), great strides (40/40), advanced touch (40/40), nothing is wasted. The advanced touch cost 10 durability, but that is then immediately restored by manipulation.
Note that if you use Manipulation at 10/40, then use advance touch, you will FAIL the synth, because the advanced touch will have taken your durability to 0/40, and when that happens your synth fails (even though Manipulation would have restored it back to 10/40). -
10-19-2013, 12:03 AMSimarilSteady hands gives 5 turns of increased success rate. You wasted a turn of steady hands on great strides. Wouldn't you rather use all 5 turns of steady hands on touch skills (or at least 4 turns anyway)???Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoflux
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10-19-2013, 12:26 AMConradusA step is whenever you do any crafting action. If you use Manipulation, and then do Steady Hand, you will have ten points more of Durability when the Steady Hand finishes, as the Steady Hand didn't consume any Durability. Unless, of course, you're at full Durability. Since you can't go above full Durability, in that case the ten points will be lost. For this reason, you generally don't want to use Manipulation until you're at least twenty points below full Durability. Also, the system checks for whether your synth breaks *before* Manipulation adds ten points. If you're at ten points Durability with Manipulation up, and you do a Basic Touch, your synth will break.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simaril
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10-19-2013, 12:29 AMConradusWhile Great Strides with Steady Hands up is not a waste if you can't avoid doing it that way, in this case Manipulation, Great Strides, Steady Hands, Advanced Touch is the superior rotation as it's exactly the same except your Steady Hands lasts one more action. Remember, you've got three actions to get around to using that Great Strides, and it really doesn't matter at which point you wind up using it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simaril
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10-19-2013, 02:34 AMBufkusNot at all. Steady hands turns aren't so valuable that you have to use touch each time. Especially when you only need one great strides+advanced touch/byregots to max quality. You just want Steady hands up to ensure success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simaril
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10-19-2013, 02:43 AMConradusThis is very true. However, it's also true that in this case reordering the rotation gets you another turn out of Steady Hands without giving anything up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bufkus
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10-19-2013, 03:01 AMEd_N_AntsYou should be using great strides before you initiate steady hands... You have three tries to use great stride and it only works once... So when you initiate great strides then choose steady hands you still have 2 more attempts on great strides and 5 attempts with steady hands... This allows you to choose great strides 3 times and use steady hands 3 times giving you 3 maximum qualities attemps with no failure rate... I do use manipulate once in a while but I usually use that with the waste not ability and only on 70 crafts...Quote:
Originally Posted by Simaril
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10-19-2013, 03:52 AMBlindheart
I basically replace masters mend 1 with manipulation. It's cheaper CP wise and as long as duribility is not max or at 10 it's pretty easy to get max benefit. If used at 10 the combine will fail as it does not add the ten until start of next step it seems
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10-21-2013, 03:05 AMjohnbeck1000
I've come to find my beginning actions on my DoH is, Inner Quiet, Great Strides(3 turns), Steady Hands(5 turns), Waste Not(4 turns)...this leaves me with one turn for Great Strides and 4 for Steady Hands and Waste Not. Although I've come to realization that my rotation of actions change depending on the item "condition". I bypass my steps for any "excellent" condition...
I read a guide to crafting and Waste Not is cheaper in CP than Manipulation...56 for two extra turns or 88 for 3, not much but a couple CP can be the difference between HQ and NQ -
10-21-2013, 03:26 AMKseniaWaste Not does make Manipulation redundant. It seems to be a slightly better option than Masters Mend if Waste Not isn't available to you. If you have ran all craft classes to 15 though it gets put in the dust bin.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbeck1000
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10-21-2013, 05:22 AMConradusLike fun it does. Waste Not is neat, but it's also very limiting. If you don't do a Touch or a Synth every action that it's up, you're throwing away a turn of a rather expensive buff. This is particularly noticeable in 40 Durability synths where you don't have a lot of room to accommodate Waste Not. Waste Not, Manipulation and Master's Mend each have their strengths and weaknesses, and there is a time and a place for each.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia
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10-21-2013, 07:21 PMRoth_TrailfinderI use Waste Not and Manipulation in the same 40 Durability synths all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia
Inner Quiet
Steady Hand (2)
Waste Not
Hasty Touch
Hasty Touch
Hasty Touch
Hasty Touch
If it takes 2 Synthesis actions, Synthesis here, if only one, Hasty Touch.
Manipulation
Steady Hand (2)
Waste Not
Hasty Touch
Hasty Touch
Hasty Touch
Hasty Touch
Best Touch I've got CP for
Synthesis
I won't use Tricks of the Trade while I've got Steady Hand (2) going, simply because doing so either wastes one charge of Waste Not, or it throws Steady Hand (2) and Waste Not out of synch. At 40, I've got enough CP that I can throw a Basic touch at the end without any Tricks uses.
As long as you know what you are doing, Waste Not and Manipulation complement each other, they do not replace one another. -
10-21-2013, 08:42 PMKseniaCongratulations, you found a use for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder
Most will use Masters Mend and get the same effect, though not over time.
It's still redundant. -
10-21-2013, 08:47 PMConradusAnd pay four more CPs? What's more, you can *only* use Master's Mend on a 40 Durability synth when Durability is at 10. That's another limitation. Face it, Manipulation is useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia
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10-21-2013, 10:56 PMKseniaOf course it's useful. I'm a 50 Weaver, I understand having use at various stages. Try completing 1 or 2 star recipes using Careful Synthesis II, then use standard synthesis. That 30% adds up and in a hurry but I'd be the last person to say Careful Synthesis II is useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conradus
I didn't say Manipulation was useless, I said it was redundant. I spoke an opinion and some how ended up in a bickering war. I apologize, I will never have an opinion again. I ama bad, evil, horrible person who should be thrown to dogs.
Happy? -
10-21-2013, 11:17 PMConradusIf something is redundant, then it is useless, because redundant means "performs no function that can't be done as well or better by something else". I do not think I was overly harsh in pointing out that Manipulation has uses that can't be done as well by any other crafting action, but things can get taken too seriously on a forum, and I apologize if you were hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia
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10-24-2013, 01:23 AMYukioManipulation's restoration kicks in after the step is complete. So...Quote:
Originally Posted by Simaril
1. If you use synthesis or touches, it will consume the durability and then add back 10 durability. This is important because if you are at 10 durability, it will bring you to 0 and fail your craft even though you have manipulation up.
2. If you use non-durability consuming steps (i.e. steady hand, tricks of the trade, rumination...) it will first consume 0 durability and then restore 10 durability which gives you a net +10 durability. However, you cannot go above the max durability on the craft.
Unlike waste not, you do not "waste" a regeneration by using a non-durability consuming move unless you are at max durability. -
10-24-2013, 01:27 AMYukioI generally never use Master's Mend I unless I am at 10 durability and I know I will not have CP to do another non-durability consuming move. 4 CP actually makes a huge difference. To put into context, tricks of the trade restores 20 CP, so the 4 CP difference could be your Byergot's Blessing or Steady Hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conradus