It would make PLD so much more fun to be able to weave flash in between cooldowns for extra threat, not to mention make our mana go down much quicker and making riot blade more useable.
Thoughts? If anything, maybe a trait for paladins?
Taking flash off GCD.
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10-10-2013, 02:41 PMNibbTaking flash off GCD.
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10-10-2013, 02:44 PMPaikis
How about no?
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10-10-2013, 02:49 PMNibbWell since your response was so highly intelligent, are you able to provide more details on why you feel it would be a bad idea? How does this effect you in anyway to warrant such a sarcastic response?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
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10-10-2013, 02:59 PMPaikisThe fact that I have to explain myself here tells me that you shouldn't be allowed to suggest changes, because you clearly haven't thought this through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nibb
Let's say your changes go through, what is to stop you from simply macroing Flash into your Fast Blade and Riot Blade buttons and then easily holding threat on everything for ever by simply spamming those buttons? Riot Blade combo would keep you full mana, and you could be using Flash on cooldown (Which I notice you didn't suggest changing, so its still at 2.5s?) and so you would have enough single-target agro that Flash would make up the difference, and you would have a pulsing AoE threat generator that you could run forever.
Your suggestion would not only reduce Paladin to a 2-button rotation, but it would make threat a complete joke instead of fairly easy as it is currently. -
10-10-2013, 03:12 PMNibb
Sure, if you wanted to go the boring route and not use most of your abilities. Why don't you try giving me a non impossible scenario and be a little more realistic. Have you put thought into this, or have you just forgotten that there are more abilities, such as Rage of Halone? There is more to tanking than just holding threat, infact, doing so isn't even hard in the first place so I'm not quite sure why you're complaining so much about that specific detail.
Not to mention why would I mention changing the cooldown so people could literally just spam the one hotkey, I obviously intended for this to be a fun mechanic you could weave in with your other combos to make the play style more fluid and rewarding instead of feeling clunky waiting for the GCD to flash once in awhile. You exaggerate the outcome by an extreme amount, most likely because you're a marauder and have some personal vendetta against anything PLD related. -
10-10-2013, 03:24 PMHundred
Paladin doesnt need a buff.
Unless you mean off the GCD with a longer CD than 2.5s... but then does Paladin need that kind of nerf.... -
10-10-2013, 04:13 PMLeironI do not believe you understand how agro works if you believe spamming Fast blade + Riot blade + Flash would be enought o generate proper ST threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
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10-10-2013, 04:20 PMRapBreonRegardless, it's still a very questionable idea. For the fact you could go crazy at the start dropping 1.5k mana worth of flashes + Halones. Then riot blade it back with your lead. Nothing would ever pull from you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
@OP; this game has long GCD's because it wants to make meaningful choices with your long GCD's, there is rarely any low cool-down non-GCD linked abilities (if any). Flash for a Paladin is actually one; do you need the AoE threat or the blind, or do you need to use that global on a bigger threat source or survival? Better than just blind-blind-blind-wait-blind because it costs you nothing. -
10-10-2013, 04:23 PMYiell
Taking the flash skill out from the global cool down will make AOE threat management easier. It will be bad news for WARs though. But yea, it will make PLDs more awesome in AOE threat managing.
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10-10-2013, 04:25 PMNovaLevossida
PLD is strong enough as it is. No need to make it any better than it currently is.
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10-10-2013, 04:28 PMXbob42
lol@thinking spamming flash on the 1.5 sec internal global cooldown mixed with riot blade would produce anywhere near viable threat for single targets. It'd make AOE tanking easier, but that's about it. It'd just mean I wouldn't have to waste a full GCD to weave flash into my tanking rotation, which is usually not viable unless I need to regen TP.
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10-10-2013, 04:32 PMNibbTruth is that would not hold threat if that's honestly all you did, especially when you start using riot blade to get your MP back. This argument is what people keep saying, but honestly if flash was off the GCD I highly doubt everyone would suddenly start spamming it and using it over your main abilities. This change is more for convenience sakes rather than a buff or nerf.Quote:
Originally Posted by RapBreon
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10-10-2013, 04:37 PMPaikis
If you want easy AoE threat, roll a Warrior. It's what I did.
What you are suggesting would allow you to use Fast blade -> riot blade as your combo for every GCD, and then in between you could hit Flash every time.
GCD1: Circle of Scorn, Spirits Within, Fast Blade, Flash
GCD2: Riot Blade, Flash
GCD3: Fast Blade, Flash
GCD4: Riot Blade, Flash
GCD5: Fast Blade, Flash
GCD6: Riot Blade, Flash
GCD7: Fast Blade, Flash
GCD8: Riot Blade, Flash
GCD9: Fast Blade, Flash
Does no one else see a problem with this? -
10-10-2013, 04:39 PMNibbGuess you never bothered to read my reply earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
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10-10-2013, 04:50 PMPaikisYou mean this part? OK, I have 50 MRD as well as 50 PLD. PLD was my first 50, I have Relics on both, and I swap between them depending on content. I also raid Coil on both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nibb
Speaking as someone who plays a PLD for about half my game time, your idea is bad. No. Get out. -
10-10-2013, 04:53 PMRapBreonIf it's off the global it will be spammed in a macro with your REAL threat gen abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nibb
FoF > Normal threat combo (Fast > Savage > Halone) with flash being spammed WHILST that is happening would give you an ABSURD lead. You could riot blade back to full and people wouldn't catch you. People can't catch me now, let alone with 5-6 free flashes chucked in. You wouldn't even need to Riot blade back the mana on a single target fight.
I agree spamming riot blade would be a scrub tier. But used right this change just makes generating a gap even easier than it is now. -
10-10-2013, 05:04 PMNibbActually, no, not that part, but good job showing your mature side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
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10-10-2013, 05:48 PMIllya
Considering Flash has Blind associated with it, it's already OP enough for PLDs. You can dodge certain attacks 100% by using Flash at the right moment, letting you use it off GCD would remove what tiny bit of challenge Titan HM has left for a PLD.
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10-10-2013, 08:48 PMSakasa
Actually that would be a buff to warrior to if it kept the same cd as it is now just of GCD. The problem with this is they would have to give flash a larger cooldown similiar to that of provoke. And to balance that they would have to make overpower match flash. So really doing so would actually make tanking harder across the board because they would have to balance it. So really that would make sure no tank has reliable AOE hate generation which would be bad and limiting the field.
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10-11-2013, 12:04 AMKristianFortNox
I believe the Flash in the GCD is fine as it. I am new to this community forum maybe I have no say on anything but I wanna give my two cents. I don't mind that Flash is GCD because I have combo to keep enmity to single target and muitl-enemies. Let's say that it's no on the GCD we have to make it fair right? So longer cooldown time will be nice or MP Cost Higher or effect cerent numbers of enemies. It depends what you want I say flash is fine as it is.
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10-11-2013, 12:20 AMFAVisceglia
You're getting into arguments over the "why not", but where is the "why"? What do you feel justifies this change? What necessitates it?
If you said "Paladins have a problem holding AoE threat, maybe this will help", okay, we're listening. But from where I stand, I think you have much better case arguing that your stun should be off the GCD.
Somewhat off-topic, with how "off the GCD" works in this game, any benefit is muted, at best... -
10-11-2013, 12:30 AMPixelshader
No. /10char
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10-11-2013, 01:42 AMHachiko
Sure would make it easier to tag mobs in fates...
But ultimately it would be kind of weird, and it would put PLD so far ahead in enmity compared to WAR it wouldn't even be funny. Gonna have to say no to this one. -
10-11-2013, 01:50 AMKasandaroHow? I'm having a hard time thinking of an ability off the GCD that doesn't have A) its own cooldown, or B) charges (aetherflow tricks, which come with their own cooldowns, too). So if Flash is off the GCD, what would its cooldown be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nibb
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10-11-2013, 01:54 AMSapphidia
You have Circle of Scorn, Spirits Within, all your multitudes of Tanking Cooldowns, Fight or Flight, and Mercy Blow if Crossclassed.
All of those are Off-GCD abilities you can weave between GCDs to keep things interesting. Making the choice between a Flash for AOE or a Savage/Rage for Single Target is part of the engagement of a paladin. If you didn't have this choice your single target rotation would be identical to your multi target rotation with just a few flashes different.
I can see that Flash off-gcd would make Paladin -better- and -easier- but in no way would it make it more engaging. You're taking out a Choice ("do i use an AOE threat move or a higher threat move on just one target"?) that helps distinguish good from bad tanks. -
10-11-2013, 01:59 AMStryker
Getting into the CD would have to be balanced out. Nobody knows for sure, and throwing out an arbitrary number wouldn't help.
Flash will stay on GCD purely because thats how this game operates as a whole. Everything has to be linked to some kind of cd to stop you from spamming abilities. I personally hate it but I deal with it.
Also none of the abilities that are off GCD are really worth a damn except for defensive cd's. I can't speak for mercy stroke because that one I don't have, but in terms of enmity generating they fall pretty low on the scale.
Spirits within is a garbage skill because it doesn't scale with HP. So whether you have 3k hp or 10k hp your skill doesn't get stronger same 300 potency with full hp. Hp would only give you a buffer to be able to hit closer to the 300 potency. Wanna talk about a skill to revamp? That one needs to be changed to something better than 300 potency at full hp. -
10-11-2013, 03:10 AMLord_Zlatan
in my opinion flash is fine the way it is. The only difficult thing I find about tanking that is inherent to your character is managing the GCD. Some people find it easy to do while other struggle to make snap decisions in a 2.5 second time period.
I think it would make the GCD irrelevant for PLD's because apart from stun, what else would actually require you to monitor the GCD? by the time your FB is up, your ready to savage blade, then rage of halone. Keep it as is. -
10-11-2013, 03:16 AMZeilaPersonally have no issue with flash or including it on my rotation. So can't say that taking it off GCD would be beneficial at all, more or less just OP when it comes to hate gen. As for "more fun", IMO absolutely not. Having to pay attention and not facerolling my keyboard / falling asleep, is pretty good to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nibb
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10-11-2013, 04:14 AMGarnatian
Eh, Paladin's are lacking in AoE threat, so something would be nice.
What I was hoping for was to turn Shield Swipe, it's to Shield Boomerang. When you block you can throw your shield to build some AoE threat and off the GCD.
At the moment PLD is so painfully simple and something else would be nice, like a new combo. -
10-11-2013, 04:38 AMPiedPiperOur aoe threat gen is fine. Stand still, spam flash, hold through anyone's aoe spam. COS and auto attack damage will be enough to hold the target you are on if you have single target fighters untill you go OOM and start using ROH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnatian
Flash off gcd would just be silly. Like, uber silly.
I can see where teh OP was just thinking "Oh this will make the class slightly mroe interesting cus currently its awful to play." Which is true. But, it would be an absurd threat increase.
If you'd really like to see something done to give us more depth, I would say that they should reduce the potency of ROH and Riot blade and add in two new combos for our shield arm that are on their own gcd. One for enmity and one for mitigation. Using both hands enmity should add up to about the current total, maybe unlocking a cool finisher move that's high damage but no hate modification (kinda like current shield swipe, little more). Should add up to slightly more than current enmity per second (or actually about 20% more, to make weaving teh mitigation combo in viable). This would make the class deeper by A) requiring us to track two combos at a time and B) actually offering options for how to proceed (more threat or more mitigation). In excahnge for this new mitigation combo, remove bulawk (or remake it so it is just the final hit in the mitigation combo).
NOTE: This is not intended as a buff. Idea is to make you work harder for slightly more than current efficacy. Hopefully warrior will get some buffs in the same patch and they'll be equal but different. -
10-11-2013, 05:45 AMAmra
As a general rule, anything that is instant cast/off gcd, has to have either a) a limited use via charges, combo points etc, b) a cooldown.
Otherwise you could just chain spam it and it would be silly.
That being said, unless you gave it a rather long cooldown, this would make the ability too powerful.
Speaking on behalf of the disenfranchised warriors, my gut reaction to any possible buff to paladin involves a lot of profanity, some knives, maybe a brick, then a plastic tub full of acid, breaking bad style.
Of course you'll say that this would benefit warriors too, since they get flash also, except that warrior's don't need any buffs to aoe threat generation, and they can only use the ability about 3-4 times before going OOM.
So yeah.. I am not in favor.
However some more off gcd abilities would be well appreciated i think for both tanking classes, to be woven into the standard rotation. -
10-11-2013, 06:49 AMLumines
I think this is very unnecessary, PLDs aren't lacking at all in terms of AoE aggro. They may not have the snap aggro Warriors do when it comes to multi-mob pulls, but if the Paladin outshines the warrior there too, what gives? I like that maintaining threat on a group of mobs isn't as easy as just pressing one button. I like that there's a point to cycle through all the mobs to check their threat levels and rotate the last Halone in the combo to the one needing a huge dump of threat. Tanking was really boring in WotLK where it became impossible to rip aggro even if all I did was head > keyboard. It was fun to clump up huge mobs and AoE them down, but that will get old fast. Paladins are simple enough as it is, it's designed so that you can focus on doing a good job tanking and not worry about rotations and what not. If you made AoE tanking as brain dead as this change would do, you'll lose out on a bit that actually made the class engaging to play.
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10-11-2013, 06:56 AMcotti
It's not a good idea. In fact, it is completely nonsensical.
There's absolutely no valid argument for it, in the first place. Now, imagine if Flash went off the GCD. As Amra said, stuff off the GCD can be spammed freely? Maybe emotes.
With only MP as a limitation, Flash would be a mess. Nothing in the game works the way you intend to, battle-wise. The battle system is not fit for actual free spamming. There's always a CD or a stack serving as limitations.
Now imagine Flash out of GCD on each situation. As a X seconds cooldown, it would make the PLD job a REALLY hard one on more than 1 mob. Let's put a mild one, like... 20 seconds - 8 perfectly aligned GCD skills. Pretty bad, eh? Now, as a stack-type skill. What would serve as a stack in the first place? A new skill like Aetherflow? That doesn't sound safe at all. How many stacks would be burned? How many are allowed? What time is the CD for the stack to build? If you think of a stack building on a Halone Combo or another specific skill, it makes it even worse: Flash is good for the beginning of the pull, not the middle when everyone is running away from the adds you failed to hold.
What else do the Pallys have for AoE? Circle of Scorn. Erm... Let's not, ok?
If you are having trouble holding initial aggro, either work on your combo, or ask your party to wait a few turns before attacking. -
10-11-2013, 03:19 PMOmaganaHow rude and that wouldn't work, perhaps you shouldn't be allowed to respond to suggestions....Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
To the OP, flash works fine as it is. Taking it off the GCD would only serve to make things easier, which is not necessary.