Hey guys. I have 2 questions. First, should getting Gladiator to 22 be my first priority atm for provoking blade? I dont have any taunts and this is the only one atm? There are no AOE taunts?
As for AOE tanking I mostly pull with tomahawk on another target than the main target and use flash, I then use HS+SS on the main target and then tab to the nearest other creature to use butchersblock. Flash again and use stun with HS on the third, SS on the main target and another BB on one of the others. I then use Steel cyclone+infuriate+Steel Cyclone + flash again combo. At this point I dont lose aggro on anything.
Tanking one or two targets is easy, when I tank 3 or 4 if I lose aggro on one I immidiately use stun on the fleeing mob to get in a HS+SS on it.
However when offtanking CM the add spawns on bosses are usually a cluster *F* as they spawn all over the place. Any advice for tanking all adds in CM bosses? When 4 groups of 2 adds spawns on opposite sides of the room I feel its almost impossible to get them all. Are you supposed to even tank all or is grouping up and AOEing them the intended way to tank here?
Im also afraid of trying to tank Garuda HM because I dont have provoking blade yet, mandatory to tank it to keep the add + Garuda on you or will the DPS shift to add allow you to aggro the add without losing aggro on Garuda?
AOE tanking and Taunt question (Warrior)
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10-09-2013, 02:56 PMLiquidOuroborosAOE tanking and Taunt question (Warrior)
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10-09-2013, 05:07 PMSpookyGhost
It's just Provoke, no blade involved since we can do it with an axe as well. Provoke is useful for when you're having aggro issues on single target enemies, but not useful against ADDs at all. There are rare occasions where a healer might pull threat on one enemy in the pack and you can provoke + Tomahawk them back, but other than that it's not doing much, especially in CM. For CM I'd recommend either communicating with the group to bring any adds they aggro to them so that you can OP/Flash them off or you can manually go around, flash, bring them to the next pack, overpower, bring them to the next pack, overpower, then just keep overpowering til you're ready to cycle through with HS>SS>BB2nd>etc. Main tanking Garuda as WAR can be annoying due to the phase w/ Red ADD but it's doable as long as your healers are competent and you can manage your self heals properly. If you don't NEED to MT her, just OT her. Hold aggro on the Red, kill all the feathers, kill the purple feather, gg.
But yeah, Provoke is worth getting, but you don't really need it for CM. -
10-09-2013, 05:15 PMSapphidia
Provoke is pretty much 100% mandatory for offtanking on Garuda hard. The adds spawn a fair way away and healers will build up a lot of threat as they move towards the group. You can get away without it as the main tank, but you're adding a huge amount of difficulty to your role without it as an OT, to the point of it being flat out impossible to do your OT job properly without it if you get trigger happy healers.
Although it's an opinionated view, I believe Provoke to be 100% mandatory for ANY 50 content. It's fine for levelling without it, but the benefits of Provoke are too good to skip:
- You can do Tank Swaps on any encounter that needs them.
- If you die and get Raised midfight, Provoke will put you back at the top of the aggro.
- Healer threat in 8mans is much higher than 4mans, Provoke gives you a safety cushion.
- You can actually pull mobs from much farther away than using Tomahawk. Useful for split pulls in speed runs.
As you have warrior at 50 it's only 7 levels from the base 15 to get it. Honestly I'd make getting Provoke your absolute priority now. Sure, in a lot of encounters you wont need it, and I'm sure people will say "well I tanked encounter X and never needed it" which will be fine. But your job as a tank is to ensure the safety of your group when things go smoothly and when things go badly, and Provoke is the most impactful cross class skill you can take.
White Mages/Scholars are often forbidden to raid if they don't have 26 Thaum for Swiftcast, even though it's situational. Warriors should be the same with Provoke. -
10-09-2013, 05:17 PMWarlyx
"tank what u can grab" in castrum , adds dont hit that hard, if u lose 1 or 2 meh , 1 dps can tank 1 add easy even 2 because the use aoe and u have time to burn them down.
try to be ready to take adds as soon as spawn, in the 1 boss is easy , go where to 1 of the sides overpower adds while running to the party , the other adds are going for your healers .
2nd boss , tank it on the door , let adds come and aoe down, try to grab as many as u can ,but dont follow if 1 goes for a dps
3 boss , as soon as add pops go for them and aoe down , 2nd /3rh wave is harder but try to aoe aoe aoe , remember that last wave come with a huge robot , grab that 1 first
last boss if u arent tanking ,u are a dps until last wave (another robot add)
p.d try to get provoke yeah its usefull , for getting agro back and for pulling succubus on AK :P -
10-09-2013, 08:38 PMLiquidOuroboros
Thanks guys <3
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10-09-2013, 09:28 PMSargon
Provoke is a must. Some examples :
- main tank die in 8man, 2nd tank use provoke, and voila! : 1st on aggro meter
- main tank die in 4man, gets a raise while dd is kiting. The raised tank use provoke => win
- healer spamming heavy threat skills when an add pops, dd unleashing everything on a mob pull, etc... Provoke saves those situation.
It changed my life as a tank. -
10-09-2013, 09:55 PMToranjaWord.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
For Garuda, if they were to give me a few seconds to aggro it before spamming Medica, everything would run a lot smoother. I still manage ok though. -
10-09-2013, 10:13 PMTerabyt3
As war why are you not using overpower?
When you tomahawk a group theyll all run towards you. Overpower once (or twice for good measure or OP then flash) will get hate on them no problem.
Since they should all be infront of you anyway (for parry) the front cone on overpower isnt hard to set up.
Provoke is most useful in BC. It's not needed for garuda but a lot of people use it in the adds phase. Holmgang works just as well when the add travels by you. I use auto face function on abilities. When add glides near me I holmganag i then have 6 secs to build hate on red line with her unable to even hit anything due to facing away. usually by the time she turns around green line is down and I have more than enough hate. -
10-09-2013, 11:13 PMKitruThese are the only situations where Provoke is really particularly useful and they're both predicated upon a tank death that isn't immediately or soon followed by a wipe (or the OT simply taking over MT duties).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sargon
Unless you've been ignoring that add for the last 10 seconds, Provoke is going to be less useful than simply dropping a BB/Halone on the target. Provoke doesn't give an enmity cushion so it's only useful when you're so enmity outstripped that you have no chance of recovering within a reasonable time normally, which, unless you've been ignoring said add for an extended period of time or you've got a WHM spamming Medica II for no good reason, you're not going to be.Quote:
- healer spamming heavy threat skills when an add pops, dd unleashing everything on a mob pull, etc... Provoke saves those situation.
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10-09-2013, 11:31 PMEhayteFor 8 man raids with trivial clearing, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
But in dungeons, even 5 seconds is LONG time in this game. It is enough time to build easily more hate than a RoH/BB will get you (even if you have it combo queued up) and that same amount of time could easily put a devastating amount of hurt into any DPS/Healing class. I use a provoke/cover hot-key all the time in dungeons, including CM. I will even sometimes intentionally let my enmity lapse on a target that is getting AE'ed while I build a huge cushion on my main target, then as soon as it breaks off from me, Provoke + Shield Lob + RoH, and now I have everything neatly under control once again, without having to have run around like a chicken with my head cut off.
Provoke is very useful. -
10-09-2013, 11:52 PMKitruI've run against relic+1 DPS while using an Ifrit weapon and never had to use Provoke on adds or trash while doing any dungeon. There are only 3 real reasons you might have issues: (1) DPS attacking a non-focus target, (2) DPS attacking ST when you're AoEing or vice versa, or (3) the tank hasn't learned to target swap to maintain smaller aggro on non-focus targets while maintaining a large amount of enmity on the focus target. If you know how to tank, you don't need Provoke for enmity generation outside of tank swaps and death recovery. Knowing how to spam Halone is not the same as knowing how to tank; you may have found a weird strategy that lets you get away with not knowing how to tank optimally, but that's not the same as actually having Provoke be useful in a situation where you actually *do* know what you're doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
I've been running without Provoke on my WAR for over 3 weeks (ever since I got Internal Release) and have never lamented not having it. I don't even use it when I'm playing PLD because I simply never need to. If you need to and there isn't an explicit fight mechanic that demands it, you're doing something wrong. -
10-10-2013, 12:29 AMEhayteYou are my favorite person on this forum, because despite the fact that you are very intelligent and thoughtful, you're favorite thing in the world seems to be to take reasonable arguments that are specifically directed to casual players or 4-man dungeons, and apply your elitist "I'm the best and if nothing goes wrong for me because I do everything perfectly all the time" then there is no need to discuss any other possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Getting as nerdy as I can here, "Only a Sith deals in extremes." -
10-10-2013, 12:36 AMEhayteAlso, to address your point - if you only know one strategy to tank, then when something unexpected happens, you will be less equipped than someone who employs a variety of situational strategies. I mainly use traditional tanking strategies, but there are plently of situations where you can use forward thinking and dexterity to alleviate stress, worry, and healer mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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10-10-2013, 12:54 AMwlakiz
Provoke is only useful if you die and ressed. It only puts you to top threat +1. If you have highest threat it does nothing. For garuda add only the far one should cause trouble and the trick for that is to tomahawk as far as you can then inner beast it as it passes you. If the healers are spamming aoe heals hard, you can holmgang it.
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10-10-2013, 01:01 AMBaymanSo, this is a Warrior asking the question... we don't have Provoke + Shield Lob + RoH, but thanks uh... for the input?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
For CM AoE tanking, I usually hit em with a couple overpowers. If you can unchained, zerk, and overpower spam 3-4 times on the trash and let your group aoe everything down. Then work your tab combo chain. You should not loose threat on any of them. Also it will be fun to watch the pally sitting there twiddling there thumbs until you get to the main bosses.
I normally only use flash when pacified from zerk or TP starved. -
10-10-2013, 01:20 AMKitruAnd you're talking about highly situations strategies as if they were somehow useful to bring up all the time. Your wonky little Provoke strategy is both harder to execute, much less useful, and much less effective than just learning to target swap to maintain multi-target enmity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
Casuals don't need to be told to use some wonky Provoke combo that requires effectively split second timing. They need to be told the relatively simple process to maintain threat on multiple targets since it does the job *better* and is easier to do. You're overcomplicating what should be incredibly simple. -
10-10-2013, 01:40 AMEhayteUhh...You have Provoke + Tomahawk + BB which is almost effectively identical but thanks uh....for...nothing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayman
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10-10-2013, 01:44 AMEhayteAgreed - I did kind of get carried away with a unique situational strategy involving Provoke. What I was trying to get across was that Provoke is useful situationally, and that I personally disagree with your statement that it should not be used aside from those couple specific times. I think employing the "wonky" strategies in combination with the traditional tanking methods (which this thread was not addressing, it was specifically talking about Provoke usage), is a great way to be a tank. I think its just a difference of opinion that we got carried away with - I sincerely apologize for being extra combative in this particular instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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10-10-2013, 09:04 AMAridElf
In CM what I do is wait for a healer to throw out a heal so ALL the mobs run to them, you MUST let them know your plan or they will panic. When the mobs are relatively close (not too close) start firing off Flash/Overpower and drag them away. It can be risky if the healer isn't aware what you're doing, but it does make it easier when done smoothly.
I haven't gotten Provoke yet, I've only ran into one or two situations where I may have needed it, but I definitely recommend getting it, I'll be getting it myself a bit later when I intend to try Garuda HM -
10-10-2013, 06:41 PMTerabyt3Provoke is a terrible opener for any tank. Since it puts you at the top of the enmity list +1 it means that initial shot is only granting you 1 enmity. Save it for the occasions it's meant for: Tank swapping, getting hate after a death, pulling succubus from miiiiiiiiiiiles away or grabbing hate after an unexpected loss!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
For War I find the easiest is: Tomohawk>Overpower if in a group (making sure i hit them all or do 2 if i don't)>BB Combo>Overpower if in group>Maim combo>fracture>Overpower if group> BB combo
People say you really need flash as a war but overpower is much more effective. For the sake of taking 2 steps to a different position you generat much more hate than a war using flash. Yes it breaks cc but if you are unable to avoid hitting cc mobs with a frontal cone attack tanking is not for you!
For PLD here's what I use: Shield Lob>Flash>Spirits within (seriously it;s the best time to use it! You're at 100%hp so 300 potency with oth multiplier and so many still dont do it)>Flash>CoS>RoHx2>Flash
Since Spirits within and CoS are off the GCD thats a really quick rapid fire of skills grabbing everything around you in about 15~.
But it's all situational. -
10-10-2013, 10:30 PMBaymanListen, I tried to be nice. BUT STFU. You are giving out HORRID information because you can tank as ANOTHER class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
If you had to use provoke, tomahawk + BB means you are gonna loose threat right away again. If yer in a scramble and need to hit prov, Prov to Zerk (if possible) to OP(upto x3 depending on sit), then BB x 3 Storm X 1 combos will win every day over your crap idea. BUT of course, you know this with all your experience as a WAR tanking, and talking to a WAR about WAR threat.
GTFO, yer either too arrogant/stupid to know when to shut yer yap, or yer a troll. -
10-10-2013, 11:12 PMEhayteNever were you once nice, you just weren't overtly text-yelling at me to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayman
I do have a WAR, btw.
Also: OP=120 potency attack x3 enmity. Tomahawk = 130 potency x3 enmity. It certainly produces more enmity to a single target. Berserk will give the same modifier to either one.
Also, Tomahawk range = 15 yalms | OP range = 8 yalms, if the mob is running away from you, Tomahawk has a better chance of hitting it, with a shorter animation time, which gives you a much higher chance of getting the mob at least heading back towards you.
Also, A BB COMBO takes 3 GCDs! LOL, you are going for SNAP aggro, not consistent enmity generation. Really, you are going to lose enmity by doing 890 potency enmity in 2 GCDs (Tomahawk+BB), as opposed to 510 (OP+HS) in 2 GCDs? Of course you start in on your BB combo after you get the mob back to you to solidify aggro, but you need to snap it with your highest enmity in the shortest time to start.