'allo there dps, fine day we're having. Question for ya!

So, okay, I've got to know this..

Why do some dps attack whatever willy-nilly target they like? If you're so geared that you can out-hate me on my main target, put me to shame, I welcome it.

(No really, because if you're that geared, letting you go all out lets the run go so much faster).

However, most dps are not that geared, so let me explain how this should work.

I'm the tank, I pick (and I always mark my main target!) a target because I'm the first into battle. I've also got to deal with the brunt of the damage, and dodging, so this is a privelege of being a tank.

If you attack something else, the healer has to heal you, and cause more threat on mobs than if they were healing me (simply because you require more healing than me). I could fight you for hate, but then, as usually happens, the other dps is hitting my marked target, and he may catch up to my enmity if shenanigans start early enough in the pull.

As long as the ordering is right, the quicker each thing dies, the easier the pull gradually becomes. For instance, if there's a pack with a healer mob in it, that should probably die first (always has so far). The quicker that dies, the less healing other mobs receive, and the shorter the fight goes. As the fight goes on, with mobs dying, healers have to heal me less and thus produce less enmity. This may let me slow down on my aoe enmity, recovering some mp (or tp in warrior's case), for the next pull.

If you're attacking a target different than mine, you are Doing It Wrong.

There is an exception, I will switch target when I have more enmity than the mob has health remaining (ensuring that it will hit me til you hit it to death). I do this because it lets me pop up another marker, lets me use flash a bit less, and let's me put my str down debuff on something else (I can do that with sub-targeting, and do, but this still helps).

Technically, any time you pull hate off a tank, when he's playing properly, you're doing it wrong, but like I said. For me, personally, if you can crank so much DPS that you outhate me, I welcome it. Get that trash dead. But please, give me a break on bosses.

However, some tanks don't take to it so kindly. It can be frustrating to deal with and this is what causes some tanks to enter the instance on the offensive. For you behaving dps, and healers, note that for every rude tank you've encountered, he's probably encounter 5 dps that just do whatever they want.

I recall, humorously, the first pull of one AK. I targeted the summoning caster, started beating it down, and a drg pulls hate on whatever he's attacking. The other 3, all friends, pipe up "Why was Polly Arm tanking?" (Polly Arm is a made up name). I reply "First, I mark my target, he should be attacking that, and second, on the pulls of these casters, it's important to get the one with the staff dead first, before he summons a demon." Some whining ensued, some d-baggery, and I politely made my exit and let them wait for another tank to troll (sorry to whoever that unfortunate fellow may have been).

Please though, until there is better reason to attack a different target than "It's hard to tab", consider that we're there to do a task and you can make it so much easier by just following our order.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by glim

I spread my dots,I pull hate on trash, I tank,I don't bitch about why I'm tanking some of them.

I pull hate on other mobs right away when tank is lazy and don't tab target, some tanks that do tab target, I still pull hate from, but it happens later.

---

Haha, yeah, but see that's okay, and that's how the job is meant to be played. I'm talking about people that specifically focus on the wrong target.

Mostly I get tired of dps in full AF feeling like they can tank. Sometimes I let them die, but usually not, because even their mediocre dps speeds the kill up.

I spread my dots,I pull hate on trash, I tank,I don't bitch about why I'm tanking some of them.

I pull hate on other mobs right away when tank is lazy and don't tab target, some tanks that do tab target, I still pull hate from, but it happens later.

Meh... assume everyone is an idiot and just tank everything...

Simply put, this is why there are pre-mades, and this is why there are pugs.

While I find it difficult to disagree with most of what you wrote, most of the people you are speaking to, don't care enough to even read the forums. So predominantly you're preaching to those who already know what you mean. I understand the rage though entirely, happy hunting.

Since we have so many "Tank complain about DPS" "Tank complain about healer" "healer complain about tank" and "healer complain about DPS" threads, it is good time for DPS to start complaining as well.
And if they could do it in 15 different topics with the same goal that would be awesome!

EDIT:
I am all for helping, anytime
But there are too many threads about X blame Y for failing and not enough on team failed because people lost concept of teamwork
I think the game is having a kind of community crisis right now where there is a need to point finger and tell other people how to do their job (especially on the english boards)
sorry if I sounded rude, just slowly getting disappointed in the end-game experience and these boards

It's funny how your post contradicts your signature.

I'm not really complaining. I'm trying to inform DPS that care about why what they're doing is wrong. The title was friendly/comical and the post offered an explanation, and even an example.

DPS do complain about tanks, they complain every time they, or anyone, does something wrong including tanks not being able to hold supreme threat on the whole instance and healers who can't heal at least as well as LB2 100% of the time.

I'm just trying to get it through to people that the best way to kill all this stuff is to work together. You are not helping anyone by being a solo superhero.

To everyone else, thanks for the comments and feedback. I know that 75% of the people who agree with this line of thought already are smart enough to do it, but maybe there is that guy who wants to learn and this is his first mmo.

Tanks who mark their targets are the best tanks. It just keeps everyone on the same page and we're all golden. I don't like it when tanks don't mark because then I have to target them and then target whatever enemy they're wailing on to stay on the same page and it can get messy. Marking is the best way, seriously. It helps everyone work together and know the goal in mind.

Granted, it took me a bit to figure out how to gauge if I'm attacking too early or the hate I'm getting (oh, the enemy's names change color? WHY DIDN'T ANYONE SAY SO) and the helpful gauges next to our names. So if a DPS clearly doesn't get the hint, it doesn't hurt to stop and say hey, don't attack the enemy until their name is red cause that means I've grabbed it and keep an eye on the little gauge near your name it tells you if you're out-hating me or close to. If they keep not listening, well... they are a loss cause and you just gotta grin and bear it (unless it's SO bad you have to leave because let's be honest, some people (tanks, healers, and dps alike) are just that bad).

It's pretty stupid to complain about this kind of behaviour because it's a behaviour limited to only DPS.

It essentially boils down to 'people make mistakes'. If tanks could somehow attack 'the wrong target', most of them probably would.

I don't see any reason to assume that DPS are playing worse than any tank or healer because they attack the wrong mob.

If everyone actually bothered to watch their enmity bars and adjust their actions accordingly, everything would work for the better. Sadly, most don't even see them. Sadder still, time and again, the usual approach I've seen many people take is to attack full on with all their abilities right at the start of the fight before the tank has bothered to build up enough hate... Despite the fact that this almost always results in those mobs being pulled off the tank. DPS should also always hold off on their attacks until the tank starts with combo attacks, it just works better that way.

The enmity bars appear under your party icons when you select an enemy. They're even numbered so that you can plainly see who is hated more. Generally speaking, DPS should try to remain in the 2 or 3 slot and throttle or use abilities as needed to remain in this position so that if the tank does get killed by something, the healer is last on the list to be attacked. Every ability you use on an enemy has an enmity component to it, especially holds, dots, or other debuffs. An experienced DPS should be using these to try and maintain the amount of hate on the active target within a given threshold.

There is nothing wrong with spreading out your dots over a group. BUT you should be aware of how much enmity they generate compared to how many area effect taunts the tank has made against those targets and should be fully aware of any mobs that will be put to sleep so that your spreading doesn't interrupt this or cause your pet to decide to attack these things.

Likewise, the tank should always open up a fight by trying to build enmity on all combatants as soon as they can, even if that target will be put to sleep. The reason being that without this initial enmity built up on the mobs, the healer will usually end up being targeted as soon as the sleep wears off, someone attacks it, or healing ends up causing more hate than the tank built from the start. You can't expect a single flash and shield throw to hold any sort of enmity, nor should Warriors limit themselves solely to Warrior skills. Your job is tanking, it is your responsibility to know how to use your skills to ensure enough attention is focused on you at all times.


Put simply, EVERYONE, not just one member of the party needs to be on the ball regarding how enmity is handled, even if it means doing less damage. The extra time you get for using raging strikes and all your instant abilities on a mob is usually negated by the time it takes for the tank to run back to where you are and fight for enmity while the healer tries to keep you both alive... Made worse by the fact that other mobs will soon target the healer adding even more work to the tank.

You realize that the overwhelmingly vast majority of tanks in this game don't have the first clue as to how to mark targets, therefore very few dps have ever had any experience with it. They're used to tanks being able to hold a whole group of mobs while they whittle them down. So, are you complaining that you don't know how to keep more than one mob at a time on you, or that no one knows what target marking is? Even tanks that don't know how to mark targets can usually keep a whole group of mobs occupied. So, like, why can't you?

I love when a tank actually marks the target. I love it the tank more when they bother to tank the other two adds with it as well. So many tanks just like dps are used to having it easy in other games. It's really easy to pass the blame. My thoughts are to politely try and educate folks first if that fails and nothing improves I go about my merry way. However, I have noticed in the duty finder most people only have tantrums screaming noob and fail at others. Which is counter productive if you are trying to have a successful run.

While some dps don't really do their job, it does work both ways, usually I try to attack whatever target the tank is attacking however there are a few exceptions to that rule, namely:

- If one enemy is a healer, or vastly more dangerous/annoying than the others (succubus for example), I will focus that mob down, if the tank is attacking something else I usually will pull it, because my single target burst is greater than their AoE.


- If an enemy is being on the healer, I will attack/burst it, because from my experience it's far easier for a healer to heal me, than it is for them to heal themselves while tanking, yes I am aware it's more healing than the mob being on the tank, but 99% of the time the tank is too clueless to notice and pull it back anyway.

- If I am multi-dotting, yes as a brd you multi-dot Venom Bite and Wind Bite are ~300 potency attacks, and give bloodletter resets, so I try to run my DoTs on as many targets as possible whenever I'm not AoEing or burning a single target, sometimes this pulls because around 2 auto-attacks are released.

-------

That said, my main pet peeve with a LOT of tanks, is they have a habit, of opening on 1 target (not marking anything mind you), then randomly switching sometime after they've hit it 1-2 times, this more or less means I get to tank the trash mob for the remainder of it's life. I agree dps attacking the wrong target when things are marked is annoying, but as a dps I have to say I find a good tank maybe... 1 in 10 runs, so for the most part I've given up, and assume the tanks won't be able to hold threat on me and I should just be prepared self-tank things.

From my experience there is too much of an emphasis placed on "watching threat" on trash mobs, when I have my cooldowns up, trash mobs really don't have the life for the tank to get solid threat, yes I COULD in theory delay attacking for 10+ seconds, but what's the point of that when by then the mob would be at around half hp?

-----

On the other hand, I hope threat is adjusted at some-point though because it can be very difficult for overgeared healers, to heal undergeared tanks without pulling, If the tank is undergeared they're likely taking excessive damage, if the healer is overgeared they generate a lot of threat, a single cure II might crit for 3000+ (and unless you KNOW your next attack is going to be a crit you may overheal some). This is the one major flaw I see in the threat system currently because.. I've noticed most tanks who lose threat consistently to healers are also unable to pull off the healers (who are now heal bombing themselves to not die).

---

Slightly off topic here and there but those are my general thoughts/opinions/rants/agreements/disagreements on threat/etc.

As a SMN, if you're not Baneing targets you're doing something wrong.

That said, tanks need to work really hard to hold AoE threat vs a SMN, because they do 100% single target dps while keeping up ~70% dps to all targets during the same time. There is no choice to aoe vs choice to single target, you aoe while you single target because you only spend one offGCD skill to do so.

So please tab target and attack if you've got a SMN and you want the run to go quicker.

Well, I mean, for me, it tends to be tank runs in hits them once, I start casting Blizzard 3, 3 seconds later, the tank has or should have flashed/hit all the mobs/whatever so I cast my AOE sleep. Then noone has to worry about any of the other mobs because they aren't doing anything.

But then, I always get amused when a healer thinks it is a cool idea to break all my sleep targets so he can put some weak dot on them... like he is somehow "helping"... when he would be able to better contribute by just sticking to single target since it means less healing he has to do on the tank, so more time spent doing DPS.

I very rarely run with BRD and SMN as the other DPS, so ideally the mobs should be slept when possible since it makes the run so much faster. If If get a BRD or SMN, then I would prolly just AOE spam them down myself.

Let's be honest here; this issue can rarely be layed at the feet of one particular person in the party. I play both roles, as many of us do, and that at least gives a bit of perspective. One of my big pet peeves in groups is Paladin tanks that think flash only is a legitimate AoE threat holding method. Flash is god awful threat per second and SMNs dots will quickly rip threat off additional mobs if the tank is only flashing for AoE threat. Paladins in particular, as they don't have as many heavy threat building AoEs as WARs, tend to be very lacking in this regard. It seems they don't like to switch targets very often to lay a Savage Blade or Rage of Halone on one of the "off targets" which is definitely key to them holding AoE threat when they have well geared DPS in the group.

The other side of this has already been thoroughly, but a lot of DPS are over zealous as well. Pushing all your buttons as soon as you can doesn't make you awesome.

P.S. Coming from my tanking background a tank that doesn't at least mark their main target, I don't need a 2 and 3 over the targets you aren't attacking as I can figure out THE BIG 1 MEANS ATTACK THIS ONE, is failing in their duties. A tank's role is not just to hold threat but to clearly define the progress of fights as best they can as well, among other things.

P.P.S. Why are none of my class levels correct on the forums when they are in the Lodestone? This is something that has bugged me for a while now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChickensEvil

I very rarely run with BRD and SMN as the other DPS, so ideally the mobs should be slept when possible since it makes the run so much faster. If If get a BRD or SMN, then I would prolly just AOE spam them down myself.

---

Summoner DoTs (bane'd DoTs, that is) and shadowflare don't break sleep.

Which means sleep is actually amazing for summoners, as they can do near full (you lose out on thunder) AoE dps while the targets are asleep, and won't worry about ripping aggro.

When one target is down, the tank can provoke the sleeping target and won't need to worry.

Bards cannot sustain AoE, and their flaming arrow also does not break sleep.

DRG here and I like to tank a trash mob every once in a while; its fun. And no, I do not require healing to do so. Has it ever resulted in the party dying? No. Has it ever resulted in the tank getting upset? Sometimes. Was there a real valid reason for the tank to be upset? No. But then again, I don't try to tank things I can't handle.

But yeah, I've seen some pretty horrible DPS pulling large groups of trash and trying to tank. I can understand the frustration with idiots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Summoner DoTs (bane'd DoTs, that is) and shadowflare don't break sleep.

Bards cannot sustain AoE, and their flaming arrow also does not break sleep.

---

Well, that solves that one, I thought only DoTs that were already on the target counted, but I guess bane'ing a DoT would be basically the same thing. Meh, the few times I have run with summoners has been in 8 man content (where nothing gets slept anyway) and the SMN I have run with always make me sad.

Hey to all your SMN out there, two important things about playing your class... if you are in a group it is on you FIRST to rez people who die, stop making the healers 1: stop healing to rez someone, and 2: burn through all their mana to rez someone. Second, stop puting your pet on auto... seriously, the AI is stupid and will not manage your abilities correctly, to maximize your DPS you need to be telling your pet what to do.

Sorry for the side track, those two things just really kill me, Pandabearcat you should have a little chat with your fellow SMN about this haha! Most people don't like being told by someone who doesn't play their class how to play their class, so maybe it will sound better coming from you :)

Anyway, the only SMN I ever run with ends up going SCH in most 4 man content because even though he is down 30 points on his main stat he heals better than most other SCH I ever run with. When he is on his SMN he is amazing though!

Feels like I just read MMO gaming 101.

Most pug tanks I've grouped with don't mark their targets and get all snooty when asked to do so. They run in and start attacking so naturally I attack the same one, then they switch to another target and I switch again, then they switch back to the original.

Mark your targets! It makes targetting the right mob so much easier. =b

*clap clap clap*
Great points op.
Yes it might sound like mmo 101 to some but fact is, these issues persist.
As a BLM myself I know that I sometimes pull aggro. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally. But what I have noticed though is that tanks really hate this. I know tanks get yelled at a lot and I understand it feels bad when someone take hate.
But know this, in ffxiv hate management is not a one man job. If you pull hate when the tank is doing his best then maybe you are the one doing it wrong. This is group play people not a dps race on a parser list.
Even if the tank is bad, pulling aggro will just make it harder for him and you will fail more.

Personally, I don't care if the tank marks targets or not. I have a /assist macro, so I'm always attacking what the tank is. It's nice when they mark a whole group so I know what they intend to fight 2nd and 3rd etc, but its not required. I don't know what the difficulty is. /assist <2>...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marveth

*clap clap clap*
Great points op.
Yes it might sound like mmo 101 to some but fact is, these issues persist.
As a BLM myself I know that I sometimes pull aggro. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally. But what I have noticed though is that tanks really hate this. I know tanks get yelled at a lot and I understand it feels bad when someone take hate.
But know this, in ffxiv hate management is not a one man job. If you pull hate when the tank is doing his best then maybe you are the one doing it wrong. This is group play people not a dps race on a parser list.
Even if the tank is bad, pulling aggro will just make it harder for him and you will fail more.

---

This is why a votekick function is needed. If the tank is bad, I should be able to kick him the hell out of my group. Likewise as a tank, if the DPS are being retarded, I should be able to eliminate the retardation. This whole touchy feely care bear BS of "Lets try and get along and teach eachother" is a damned joke. People are about as capable as they will ever be at the start of any given instance. There is only one mechanic in this game in PuG'able content where knowing what to do will help, and that is the various things that can happen when Demon Wall does Repel.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...rinth-Worm.jpg
come inside meet the misses!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gunba

It's pretty stupid to complain about this kind of behaviour because it's a behaviour limited to only DPS.

It essentially boils down to 'people make mistakes'. If tanks could somehow attack 'the wrong target', most of them probably would.

I don't see any reason to assume that DPS are playing worse than any tank or healer because they attack the wrong mob.

---

Oh it's not, tanks can attack the wrong targets too. Tanks can also switch far too frequently. Part of switching targets is establishing enough hate on your primary target that you can switch and take care of business.

Simply, if you're attacking something different than a tank's marked target (casting dots doesn't count), you're hurting the group more than helping.

If the tank isn't marking a target, he's Doing It Wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tenkiei

- If an enemy is being on the healer, I will attack/burst it, because from my experience it's far easier for a healer to heal me, than it is for them to heal themselves while tanking, yes I am aware it's more healing than the mob being on the tank, but 99% of the time the tank is too clueless to notice and pull it back anyway.

---

Most definitely.

Also because there's a chance, while they're being hit, for the spell to be interrupted. If you play a class with a stun, you can also mitigate you're incoming damage.[/quote]

Yes, absolutely. If for no other reason than it's more vital that the healer live than the dps, no offense. It's still the tank's "fault", but you do what you can. In other games, where dps could taunt/provoke, I certainly would taunt off the healer if the tank wasn't doing his job.

Quote:

---

That said, my main pet peeve with a LOT of tanks, is they have a habit, of opening on 1 target (not marking anything mind you), then randomly switching sometime after they've hit it 1-2 times, this more or less means I get to tank the trash mob for the remainder of it's life. I agree dps attacking the wrong target when things are marked is annoying, but as a dps I have to say I find a good tank maybe... 1 in 10 runs, so for the most part I've given up, and assume the tanks won't be able to hold threat on me and I should just be prepared self-tank things.

---

I will say it's tough when you have a single target beast like Bard and summoner in the same group. You want to establish hate for the Bard but you know the summoner is up to naughty things. (I'm joking, the summoner is playing his job how it is most useful).

Quote:

---

From my experience there is too much of an emphasis placed on "watching threat" on trash mobs, when I have my cooldowns up, trash mobs really don't have the life for the tank to get solid threat, yes I COULD in theory delay attacking for 10+ seconds, but what's the point of that when by then the mob would be at around half hp?

---

Agreed.

Quote:

---

On the other hand, I hope threat is adjusted at some-point though because it can be very difficult for overgeared healers, to heal undergeared tanks without pulling, If the tank is undergeared they're likely taking excessive damage, if the healer is overgeared they generate a lot of threat, a single cure II might crit for 3000+ (and unless you KNOW your next attack is going to be a crit you may overheal some). This is the one major flaw I see in the threat system currently because.. I've noticed most tanks who lose threat consistently to healers are also unable to pull off the healers (who are now heal bombing themselves to not die).

---

Well, in most cases, the healer can do a few things. They can sleep targets, they can try to heal reactively rather than proactively, and they can even (I'm not really fond of this) equip a lesser set of gear. Healing threat does need changed though. The only healer I couldn't hold hate off of was one determined to have it. I mean ALL he did was chain-cast cure 2's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Summoner DoTs (bane'd DoTs, that is) and shadowflare don't break sleep.

Which means sleep is actually amazing for summoners, as they can do near full (you lose out on thunder) AoE dps while the targets are asleep, and won't worry about ripping aggro.

When one target is down, the tank can provoke the sleeping target and won't need to worry.

Bards cannot sustain AoE, and their flaming arrow also does not break sleep.

---

To be clear to anyone who might not understand, the reason you would provoke after switching to the target is because the dots do build hate while sleeping, the mobs just stay in place, basically suffocating in their sleep. When they wake, they find their target.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamez82

Feels like I just read MMO gaming 101.

---

Some people (not implying you're one) need to attend the class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avedis1134

Personally, I don't care if the tank marks targets or not. I have a /assist macro, so I'm always attacking what the tank is. It's nice when they mark a whole group so I know what they intend to fight 2nd and 3rd etc, but its not required. I don't know what the difficulty is. /assist <2>...

---

Yes, you can use assist to target the tank's target but that target isn't necessarily the one that should be focused on. Like I mentioned above, some tanks frequently switch back and forth between targets. If one is marked as "1" then I know that's the mob that should die first and if the tank switches to another one temporarily I know that he'll eventually go back to "1". I can just focus on that target instead of constantly hitting assist to see which one he's attacking all the time. It may be easy for a MNK to swtich targets but SMNs take time to cast spells (about 7 secs for the main dots).

For those tanks that do mark their targets, kudos to you.

Just my experience in the tanking role, I do mark my targets but I also switch targets a lot. I do this to get as much hate on all targets as I possibly can but I do expect the DPS to concentrate on the marks in order. With that said, I also try to gauge the DPS in my party to see how much hate they actually generate and I change my play style accordingly. If I see I have DPS pulling the hate way too fast, then I won't switch targets a lot but rather concentrate on the one target so I don't lose hate.

With that said, it is still very difficult if the DPS split up and attack different mobs and pull hate rather quickly. There just isn't enough AoE enmity skills to pull the hate off both. So then it becomes which DPS should I try to pull the hate off of first? Most DPS understand after a few fights and try to focus on the same mob after.

My personal pet peeve when I am tanking is when DPS go off ahead and pull the targets themselves... This is not FFXI lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marael

You realize that the overwhelmingly vast majority of tanks in this game don't have the first clue as to how to mark targets

---

Everyone can mark targets. Sure, it may not be as organized since you would have to know what target the tank is going for, but this can be done easily with a simple macro.

Quote:

---

/mk circle <tt>
/p Tank's target is marked with circle, please focus your damage there
/assist <t>

---

or for healers

Quote:

---

/mk circle <tt>
/p Tank's target is marked with circle, please focus your damage there
/ac "cure" <t>

---

Just click with the tank selected after the initial round of flash/overpower. Super simple. Can even add one of your abilities at the end of the macro to attack the target right away. Nobody has an excuse, just make sure that only one person is marking things.

the only thing i will add as a long time dps from days of yor.....
1) marking targets are great, but if the mob dies and it takes you 3 min to mark second target (this happens alot oddly...) dont scream at the dps that stands back a foot or 2 trying to figure out second target, or immediatly yell at him for cranking on the wrong one cause u refuse to or cant mark second target.....
2) mark primary target, throw a spear at it, then switch immediatly and /kick your dps for attacking target 1 like we has been from start of dungeon run.
3) ask if the dps understands the threat table to begin with. been playing since cb, asked numerous times about the numbers in the party list and yet no one ever thought to say "o, thats your threat you should keep that low." just found out a week ago that the numbers and colors were your threat levels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vagrant-0

Everyone can mark targets. Sure, it may not be as organized since you would have to know what target the tank is going for, but this can be done easily with a simple macro.

---

Preferably, only the tank should be marking targets. It's just part of the role. Mark targets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyronex

Like I mentioned above, some tanks frequently switch back and forth between targets. If one is marked as "1" then I know that's the mob that should die first and if the tank switches to another one temporarily I know that he'll eventually go back to "1".

---

This. I occasionally run into dps that switch targets as I move on to the next (when <1> is almost dead, I mark a new target with <1>), and I politely explain to them to stick with the almost dead target, I'm just marking ahead of time for them so that they know what to attack next.

There's no need to make the time to mark <2,3,4>, especially sometimes because pulls change. If someone agros something more dangerous, I'm switching. You can continue to kill <1> if you like but my next target may not have been what I would have initially marked <2>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steeled

Preferably, only the tank should be marking targets. It's just part of the role. Mark targets.

---

I mark as a tank but when I perform the other roles, I see sometimes DPS marking or when I'm THM I will mark my sleep target. My only suggestion for people is that if the tank is marking then let him mark. If he isn't marking then I don't see anything wrong with marking yourself. In one group I had, I was marking my sleep targets but sometimes it clashed with the tanks plan, so later in the dungeon he began marking the sleep targets so I just let him do that and followed the marks.

Sorry^^, macros for sleeps and such are fine. I meant attack-order.

There comes a time where by-the-numbers tanking is unnecessary. When you've done Amdapor 40 times, you can take the training wheels off and start AoEing everything and distributing DoTs with little regard for "crowd control" or "letting someone tank." It's a luxury that comes with getting better gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Almalexia

There comes a time where by-the-numbers tanking is unnecessary. When you've done Amdapor 40 times, you can take the training wheels off and start AoEing everything and distributing DoTs with little regard for "crowd control" or "letting someone tank." It's a luxury that comes with getting better gear.

---

This is always true as long as you do content significantly easier than your gear/level. But it requires the tank to be in equal gear or you will constantly pull hate. However on the flip side if you know you can survive pulling hate and that its not reducing dps for the party (as in pulling mob away from melee dps) then by all means, do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Almalexia

There comes a time where by-the-numbers tanking is unnecessary. When you've done Amdapor 40 times, you can take the training wheels off and start AoEing everything and distributing DoTs with little regard for "crowd control" or "letting someone tank." It's a luxury that comes with getting better gear.

---

When I said "If you can pull single-target hate off me, that's fine, I welcome it", but I covered that pretty well in the OP but you know what..

Nowhere, in Amdapor Keep, is it beneficial for you to attack the wrong target. Nowhere, never happens. If the tank is attacking the priority target of the pull, or there really isn't one, then you can do everyone a favor by following marks.

So far, as long as the tank is attacking the right target first, there's no instance that I've seen where you attacking something else is benefit to anyone, aside from adds in boss fights.

There is no wrong target if you attack everything at once.

You can't do full dps to everything at once, and a lot of jobs spamming aoes, and nothing but aoes on things like 2 mobs could do better single targeting.

I'm not complaining about off-target dots killing something. I'm not complaining at all. I'm saying that if any part of your rotation is single target, there's no justifiable reason for that target to be something other than <1 >.

This has nothing to do with training wheels. It's proper play.

Training wheels is things like summoners gimping their offtarget dps, or the healer never doing anything but curing, or the bard giving it a 5 count before he starts.

this thread is spot on ALL dps have to do really is deal damage at least deal it in the right order

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steeled

It's funny how your post contradicts your signature.

I'm not really complaining. I'm trying to inform DPS that care about why what they're doing is wrong. The title was friendly/comical and the post offered an explanation, and even an example.

DPS do complain about tanks, they complain every time they, or anyone, does something wrong including tanks not being able to hold supreme threat on the whole instance and healers who can't heal at least as well as LB2 100% of the time.

I'm just trying to get it through to people that the best way to kill all this stuff is to work together. You are not helping anyone by being a solo superhero.

To everyone else, thanks for the comments and feedback. I know that 75% of the people who agree with this line of thought already are smart enough to do it, but maybe there is that guy who wants to learn and this is his first mmo.

---

The players you're aiming to inform don't read the forums.

At this point, when I do AK. It is usually 2 dps and a healer full DL/relic and we pug a tank. Unless it is a boss fight or a case where not properly following the assist train will wipe us (cant think of any point of that in AK) I attack whatever I feel like, to the point where the other dps and me have contests on who can kill their target first. If i pull aggro our healer heals me, I dont even want the tank to try and take aggro back cause he wont succeed. Now this is also assuming that me doing this will not end up in deaths or wipes for our group. I am sure someone will read the first sentence and call me bad, when the reality is my group that I run with is overgeared for AK and just doesnt care. If it was content that mattered, I would play very differently.