PLD mechanics and group tanking

I leveled war and pld tgt til 38 pretty much via dungeons only cuz it was easy to do queue and fun to fight in a group. I couldn't help but to notice that the PLD mechanics seems to be so much more suitable for group/trash tanking.

First, the pre-emptive defensive skills mitigate a lot of difficult-to-foresee damage from groups of mobs.
VERSUS WAR: WAR defensive skills are reactive, and just arn't as effective against a large group of mobs with inconsistent attack patterns.

Secondly, PLD has a fool-proof, sure-hit 360 degree enmity tool that we could literally spam (albeit to a certain extent), and most importantly, it does not interrupt our combos, and does not wake up sleeping mobs.
VERSUS WAR: grabbing aoe enmity as a WAR is easy if 1) mobs are not slept; 2) well positioned, which is hard even at lower level dungeons such as Lady Amandine when she spawned the adds, when as a PLD I could just run past them and Flash while as a WAR, Overpower required me to station myself properly. But most importantly, Overpower breaks our combo and impedes Wrath gain.

Thirdly, Shield Swipe. If you have used it extensively, you would know how much it prcos when you are fighting a group of mobs - practically all the time. Rotating through all the engaged and awake mobs means complete mitigation of damage or so in a very short period of time.
VERSUS WAR: I guess we do have Haymaker ^^;

Fourthly, the ease of PLD combos allows us to easily rotate through multiple mobs amidst the chaos to grab hate with ease.
VERSUS WAR: WAR, assuming its focus on self-heal and tactful use of wraths, relies heavily on Combos. Using Overpower breaks our combos and make wrath-gain impossible. Also, when the situation does not allow Overpower, and hence requires us to rotate through the mobs, the mechanics is just more difficult compared to PLD as we need to have Maim buff up all the time; using Berserk as often as we could for effective healing, which disables us momentarily etc

Finally, the ease of switching between Shield and Sword Oath indicates that PLD is meant to be alternating between them when the situation calls for it, moreover, it has been proven (at least in my impression) that PLD dmg is not sub-par when we are out of Shield Oath.
VERS WAR: turning off Defiance is also easy... but being reliant on Wraths, the cost of having Defiance off is in fact that full stack of Wrath and the immediate readiness to turn into full tanking mode as opposed to switching from Sword to Shield Oath.

When it comes to single-target tanking, we all know that WAR requires a more tactics (at least at this moment, when we, and possibly the dev, are still trying to figure things out). Nonetheless, the philosophy behind WAR is based on self-heal and precision in executing proper rotations in the right circumstances, thereby achieving partial self-sustainability, which could relieve a lot of stress on the healer (or otherwise if the WAR screws up). Letting a WAR tank a single monster seems to be a much more idea idea as far as mechanics are concerned from how I am playing these 2 classes so far. But then again, I'm only 38 and am merely basing my judgment on my impressions and personal play style.

Thoughts?

Any tips on what your rotation is for hm primals and boc, and if it's diff on low dungeons like AV and CC? Any macro's you use in party? Picking up pld as my 3rd job for relic and I would be willing to listen to your advice.

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Originally Posted by WHS

Any tips on what your rotation is for hm primals and boc, and if it's diff on low dungeons like AV and CC? Any macro's you use in party? Picking up pld as my 3rd job for relic and I would be willing to listen to your advice.

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His PLD and WAR are 38, so he doesn't really have that type of experience in terms of tanking that content.

Also, though Steel Cyclone is wasteful, once you get access to that and infuriate it makes trash packs that are spread out a lot more easy to manage. Otherwise, you can always just pull with Tomahawk, move back a few steps, and hit Overpower. The WAR hate combo is as simple as the PLD one, so we too can shift through mobs and go through the motions. When you're looking at a huge amount of trash, the best thing to do is pop Vengeance and Blood Bath for some constant mitigation and building aggro on everything.

PLD can manage ADDs, WAR just has an easier way of dealing with a lot of them and quickly. That said, PLD and WAR are basically on equal footing until 50, and then still on equal footing in most instances until Titan and Coil.

Edit: Also, we get Flash as a cross class from GLD (we just don't get the additional blind), so if you're worried about a WHM/SCH/BLM sleeping mobs and you waking them up, you can just use Flash instead.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

I couldn't help but to notice that the PLD mechanics seems to be so much more suitable for group/trash tanking.

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I LOLed
/10char

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Originally Posted by Tronic

I LOLed
/10char

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Wouldn't be that far off.

Paladin has Flash and Circle of Scorn. Flash doesn't deal damage so it doesn't wake up mobs, CoS has a DoT effect, which also doesn't wake up mobs. Furthermore, they don't spend any TP.

Warrior has Overpower, which deals damage and therefore wakes mobs up, and if you really wanna use it, Steel Cyclone, which is wasteful to use most of the time.

The thing that sets Warrior apart from Paladin though is Wrath stacks, Inner Beast, Berserk, and Bloodbath allowing Warrior to handle themselves versus a pack of trash mobs much better than a Paladin does, who pretty much has no self-sustaining abilities, unless you really really really want to use Cure. But I can see why people would think Paladin has the better skillset vs Trash mobs, even though it's actually Warrior that does.

i've been repeatedly running cutter's cry on pld. will do so on war after i hit 41, although i'm kinda worried about the amount of damage i will be take if the healer can't/is unwilling to kite the ant soldiers, marshal and guards. i shall try and see how it goes xD

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Originally Posted by Shuon

i've been repeatedly running cutter's cry on pld. will do so on war after i hit 41, although i'm kinda worried about the amount of damage i will be take if the healer can't/is unwilling to kite the ant soldiers, marshal and guards. i shall try and see how it goes xD

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I don't see why the healer should have to kite: pick them up.

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Originally Posted by Tronic

I don't see why the healer should have to kite: pick them up.

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i LOLed
/10char

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Originally Posted by Shuon

i LOLed
/10char

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...why laugh? It's more than doable to tank all the ants at once, and that is with both tanks.

Because at this moment, picking them up and tanking would probably make life tougher for everyone especially the healer as opposed to tanking them all at all once (which is really like an exploit imo). I have tanked them straight up many times nonetheless, but to 'pick them up' is the 2nd best alternative at this moment, and that was an ill advise.

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Originally Posted by BadRNG

...why laugh? It's more than doable to tank all the ants at once, and that is with both tanks.

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I find it much more smoother to kite it as a healer.

That's both from a healer and tank perspective.

Trash tanking is about speed and holding aggro. Pretty sure it's accepted that Warriors are the absolute kinds of multi-target threat gen. Besides tanking like 4 T4 non-spider mobs, survival shouldn't be an issue.

Paladin AoE tanking is tedious as hell against good DPS, cycle through targets doing Fast>Savage>Rage is annoying.

I'm both a 50 PLD and 50 WAR. And WAR is 50x easier to hold multi-target threat with. Flash spam doesn't cut it if a geared party member wants to blow a single target up.

EDIT: Who sleeps mobs anymore? XD

EDIT2:

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Originally Posted by Shuon

Because at this moment, picking them up and tanking would probably make life tougher for everyone especially the healer as opposed to tanking them all at all once (which is really like an exploit imo). I have tanked them straight up many times nonetheless, but to 'pick them up' is the 2nd best alternative at this moment, and that was an ill advise.

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Whhhhhhaaaaaat? Also seriously, if a healer can't heal you through that there is some serious issues. Kiting and healing in this game is harder than just spamming Cure II at you 24/7.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

Whhhhhhaaaaaat? Also seriously, if a healer can't heal you through that there is some serious issues. Kiting and healing in this game is harder than just spamming Cure II at you 24/7.

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I've done both methods as a tank and a healer. I've won with both methods. I still prefer the kiting method.

Divine Seal > Regen > Win. That's literally all you have to do. -Maybe- toss on another Regen if your DPS is subpar.

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Originally Posted by Tanaya

I've done both methods as a tank and a healer. I've won with both methods. I still prefer the kiting method.

Divine Seal > Regen > Win. That's literally all you have to do. -Maybe- toss on another Regen if your DPS is subpar.

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Most pre-50 dungeons fights are designed to teach you something. A mechanics check of some sort. Taking what is the tanks responsibility away from them is a disservice. Though to be entirely honest, I'm preaching because I don't give a shit when it comes down to it. But it does seem to be aimed at learning how to deal with adds. And having healers kite in serious content is a literal non-starter.

I'll do what it takes get it done quickest. Usually having them all grouped up and AoEing them is quickest and having my usually sub-par DF healer spam cure on me works best and if they can't handle it I'll kite for them. But you appear to be the competent one in your groups, so I commend your initiative!

I understand your point, and from a concept of learning, I'll agree. But on the other hand, it could be taken as thinking outside the box, which is just as important as getting down the mechanics.

Either way I just find dealing with the adds a lot messier than it needs to be, usually because the DPS is lacking. The Princess is weak as hell by herself, so taking the adds out of the equation almost entirely makes the fight a breeze. Maybe the straight tank method is more efficient, but I've yet to see it.

@RapBreon: I believe you misunderstood me. I meant having the healer kiting should not have been made possible because having the tank learn to deal with adds would have been more educational, and the ability for a healer to kite - therefore completely circumventing this mechanic - seems like an exploit to me.

But this is an optional lvl38 dungeon... no one really cares about it and only do it for fun.... haha >.>;;

...and no, straight up tanking is never as efficient as kiting.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

@RapBreon: I believe you misunderstood me. I meant having the healer kiting should not have been made possible because having the tank learn to deal with adds would have been more educational, and the ability for a healer to kite - therefore completely circumventing this mechanic - seems like an exploit to me.

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Oh that makes...more sense. Kiting adds is fine, making your healer do it, is something you generally don't want.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

But this is an optional lvl38 dungeon... no one really cares about it and only do it for fun.... haha >.>;;

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Using CC as your baseline for your theory crafting means you're not max level and don't quite have experience with the relevant content yet. Which means you don't have all the tools, baseline equipment or experience needed to form a *complete* understanding of the role. You have no tangible end-game experience, merely theory crafting (the situational, circumstanial, non-numerical kind). This is fine. But really CC isn't a great place to take your experience and transplant them onto the end-game where it's a lot different. If your comparison was restricted solely to CC then it would be more valid.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

...and no, straight up tanking is never as efficient as kiting.

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Circumstantial, but in your scenario the *healer* kiting that is way less efficient. Also the mobs die slower unless you have pure ranged DPS. If the mobs need to be killed then and there (which may not be the case in CC, but it isn't lots of other places) tanking them will always be more efficient. So I'd advise against words like 'never'. Mobs don't feel attrition.

Could you kite all the mobs in T4? Sure. Would a tank die? Probably not. Would they hold aggro? Probably not. Would you kill the mobs before the next wave or at a reasonable pace? Probably not. This is usually the trend with adds in 'challenging' content, they need to die ASAP. Though kiting is viable in T4 for very specific spots in T4, it's not more efficient 'always'.

you ar reading too much into this 'healer kiting' scenario.

the healer is kiting because iys always the healer getting hate. it's ok for thr healer to kite in this fight i.e. specifically myrmidon princess because the princess has very low hp, doesnt hit hard, and with 2dps and the pld/war tocus firing on it without shield oath and defiance the princess literally dies in less than a min. it is a very exceptional case, and in tgis exceptional case straight tanking is just that much more inconvenient. but anyway it doesnt really matter....

I've had the healer kite it, and really I agree this is the only scenario where it works and would be recommended. I've done it both ways, and running around trying to pull all the ads was a lot harder than the healer kiting them. Running in a circle spamming regen while we focused down the boss quickly to end it was much easier than me running around spamming flash till I had nothing left in attempt to get and hold all those dam ads.

Actually, when the adds spawn, as long as nobody does anything, you can toss out a quick Shield Lob and pull Hate from every single add that spawned. Drop a few quick flashes and you're good to go. In my experience though, DUR-ps like to go buck wild as soon as the Tank does something. I usually have to tell them not to do anything until after the 3rd flash.

Generally this is why I'm using caveats with my statements; like 'circumstantial' or 'generally'. I said it may be reasonable in CC, but the mechanics in early dungeons are designed to teach you something (usually), having a healer kite is merely delaying what seems to be the core problem; tanks not knowing how to pick up adds.

I've done CC a paltry number of times I admit, but I have never had trouble picking up the adds. Usually whoever gets aggro should bring the adds to the tank, but I understand in DF that's not the case, so go to whoever has them and press flash/overpower a few times, tah da adds. It just seems like inexperienced players TBH. Ultimately what I say amounts to nothing, I suggest doing what works for you and deal with those issues one step at a time.