Another Idea to make Dragoon actually feel like a Dragoon

I'm not going to into a lore deep dive on past FF games, or anything just going to spit out the facts and idea itself.

Dragoons in the FF series have generally been seen as Dragon Slayers, and one of their primary abilities to do this was to jump really high with a long pointy stick and stab the giant lizards while either in mid-air or after they landed from their high jumps. The problem with the FF14 Dragoon is that he or she is standing on the ground stabbing things head-on the majority of the time.

My solution is two-fold, whichever one works best to alleviate this issue.

A simple swap of the combo's enders. Swap Full Throttle with High Jump, or jump as the combo ender. Meaning after every 2nd attack the 3rd attack would be one of the aforementioned jumps. The same goes for Chaos Thrust, it swaps with Spineshatter Dive And Dragonfire Dive Coerthan Torment. This means those jumps would become weapon skills, their potency would mimic the effects and potency of the skills they are replacing. While the replaced skills either become abilities that use OGCDs and likely have their potencies increased and new effects for them come up with or they are dropped altogether.

I personally like the idea of dropping the replaced skills if not for no other reason than to reduce button bloat or to free up space for new skills that could come later on. To me, this seems like a no-brainer and should have been the core concept since day one when it came to Dragoon specifically, not necessarily Lancer. This means the combo enders would come roughly all around the same time as they did before, full throttle was lv 26 but now jump is lv 30 so you'd have to wait 4 more levels and a job change to finish the combo, and Spineshatter Dive comes at 45 instead of Chaos Thrust 50.

I'll repeat so no one asks, the additional effects of other Chaos Thrust, Full Throttle, and Coerthan Torment would be inherited by their respective jumps, and the replaced skills could either be reworked as abilities that do something else or in my preferred opinion be dropped altogether.

I could only dream that this is in fact what they had in mind for the rework but I figure I'd run it by the community first.

Imo my wish is that they make DRG revolve more around Jumps too.
I think there's a chance that it'll be at the expense of ogcd's and I'd personally be fine with that, I think there are already enough Jobs that revolve around heavy use of ogcd's.
I think it'd be more interesting to build up towards big damage Jumps that hit really really hard.
For DRG to basically be on the slower but heavier hitting end.

That's just my view tho, it's a matter of preference but I definitely think it'd make DRG more unique.
Either way I do think Jumps becoming the focus will be a thing and I am very excited about that.
DRG plays well already as it is so there is obviously a fear there, but I also think it could be really good.

Jump GCDs are not a good idea because we use them often. They are sometimes shuffled around in the opener for comfort in specific encounters in order to avoid being killed/getting a damage down while ensuring that there's no drift.

If jumps became GCDs, then you'd be forced to use them at the time they come back due to how ubiquitous they are in our rotation and because GCDs cannot be delayed as oGCDs can. Drifting an oGCD as DRG is unoptimal, but dying is more so.

GCD gapclosers are good when there's flexibility in their use and are not forced into the rotation. Backtrack to the time at the beginning of EW when NINs had to use several gapclosers in a row during their burst, which was especially limiting for them and prompted complaints on the matter. So would be the case for DRG. Primal Rend and Forked Raiju are good because you can plan around their use to keep uptime (for example to break tethers in P4-2S), are not forced to use at a specific point and because those jobs are not centered around jumps like DRG is.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Imo my wish is that they make DRG revolve more around Jumps too.
I think there's a chance that it'll be at the expense of ogcd's and I'd personally be fine with that, I think there are already enough Jobs that revolve around heavy use of ogcd's.
I think it'd be more interesting to build up towards big damage Jumps that hit really really hard.

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DRG is the only melee DPS that is heavily oGCD centered. Removing this identity of the job would stripe it of its uniqueness. Wanting jumps to hit harder is fine, but jumps are oGCDs and thus they can't have the same potency as a Hyosho or a Double Down. There's the case of Enkindles (even though it's pet potency and so lower than the tooltip shows), but most oGCDs don't even get close to 1000 potency across all jobs.

So if we want jumps to hit harder, we'd have to use them less, but then we'd be in a situation in which not having the jumps crit is an issue. STD's potency could be upped to 700 and DFD should hit harder than it does, sure, and I personally think HJ should hit harder as well, but not all jobs need to have a super big attack.

My personal wish for DRG is more interactions between GCDs and oGCDs, but one thing clear to me is that the machine gun burst with a lot oGCDs is a very satisfying part of the job that is not shared by many others (closest contenders are DRK and GNB respectively) and so it should be kept as an integral part of the job alongside the jumps and the dragon powers.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Jump GCDs are not a good idea because we use them often. They are sometimes shuffled around in the opener for comfort in specific encounters in order to avoid being killed/getting a damage down while ensuring that there's no drift.

If jumps became GCDs, then you'd be forced to use them at the time they come back due to how ubiquitous they are in our rotation and because GCDs cannot be delayed as oGCDs can. Drifting an oGCD as DRG is unoptimal, but dying is more so.

GCD gapclosers are good when there's flexibility in their use and are not forced into the rotation. Backtrack to the time at the beginning of EW when NINs had to use several gapclosers in a row during their burst, which was especially limiting for them and prompted complaints on the matter. So would be the case for DRG. Primal Rend and Forked Raiju are good because you can plan around their use to keep uptime (for example to break tethers in P4-2S), are not forced to use at a specific point and because those jobs are not centered around jumps like DRG is.



DRG is the only melee DPS that is heavily oGCD centered. Removing this identity of the job would stripe it of its uniqueness. Wanting jumps to hit harder is fine, but jumps are oGCDs and thus they can't have the same potency as a Hyosho or a Double Down. There's the case of Enkindles (even though it's pet potency and so lower than the tooltip shows), but most oGCDs don't even get close to 1000 potency across all jobs.

So if we want jumps to hit harder, we'd have to use them less, but then we'd be in a situation in which not having the jumps crit is an issue. STD's potency could be upped to 700 and DFD should hit harder than it does, sure, and I personally think HJ should hit harder as well, but not all jobs need to have a super big attack.

My personal wish for DRG is more interactions between GCDs and oGCDs, but one thing clear to me is that the machine gun burst with a lot oGCDs is a very satisfying part of the job that is not shared by many others (closest contenders are DRK and GNB respectively) and so it should be kept as an integral part of the job alongside the jumps and the dragon powers.

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DRG is the most ogcd centric in where the source of their damage comes from but I definitely wouldn't say '' only '', all of them utilize ogcd's to a very large degree ( MNK to a point where you get so many resources for them that it can get rly hard to throw them out fast enough without clipping ).
What makes DRG more unique in this regard is the role they play in the burst window but I still think MNK is quite comparable there just not quite as relient.

It's not necessarily true that we'd have to use Jumps less often this is a numerical issue that the devs can balance around.
I am simply expressing my preference not saying that this is how it strictly *SHOULD* play which I think people do way too often.

You're right that Jumps are ogcd's tho and I think they should remain such.
I was moreso thinking of their other ogcd's, I think the Jumps should be the niche.
It feels a bit more like '' line attacks '' are more of DRG's niche ( Nastrond, Geirskogul, Wyrmwind Thrust ).

I dunno how much I want to get into the discussion of removing skills because it's a touchy subject, but I think damage from these line attacks could go into Jumps instead and give Jumps a more active presence in the rotation.
Wyrmwind Thrust could be a Jump attack instead of another line attack.

When you say '' interactions between GCDs and oGCDs '' are you referring to stuff like Continuation for GNB or something else?
I love Continuation as a concept for GNB but it's kinda frustrating at times when bosses are moving/ being moved around.

Edit: But yeah personally I like the concept of a slower Job with less frequent ogcd's and with rly big hitting Jump attacks, that's my preference tho I am not super attached to it or anything and I still like how DRG plays currently.
I do however think that on a thematic level the Jumps aren't pushed enough.
They don't quite feel like the main event to me which is a tad strange all things considered.

In hindsight '' revolve around '' maybe have been a poor choice of words tho.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

DRG is the most ogcd centric in where the source of their damage comes from but I definitely wouldn't say '' only '', all of them utilize ogcd's to a very large degree ( MNK to a point where you get so many resources for them that it can get rly hard to throw them out fast enough without clipping ).
What makes DRG more unique in this regard is the role they play in the burst window but I still think MNK is quite comparable there just not quite as relient.

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Most, if not all, jobs have oGCDs that enable their burst since their cooldown is what controls how often they can use such abilities.

However, I cannot agree that MNK, for instance, is similar to DRG in their playstyle regarding their oGCDs. MNK is a job whose damage comes mainly from GCDs. It does have in common with DRG the fact of having three buffing abilities, but the similarities end there. Perfect Balance enables Beast Chakras, which are GCDs. The Forbidden Chakra, while an oGCD that is used often, is enabled mainly my MNKs GCDs and is just simply a gauge that is spent as soon as it's filled due to the fact that the max amount stored is also the amount required to use the ability (which is why they need to have chakra overflow).

DRG on the other hand is the only oGCD melee in the sense that oGCDs both enable and deal damage. oGCDs in the DRG kit do not enable the GCDs (the exception being Life Surge, which is why it's an interesting ability despite its flaws), but other oGCDs.

HJ/GSK/MD are the resource generators of our main damage mechanic, LotD, and then we have more oGCDs to manage in our arsenal, namely the jumps, Life Surge and WWT. Having to juggle all those oGCDs, as well as our buffs, is unique to DRG within the melee jobs. The others don't have to (double) weave as much as DRG does.

The jobs that feel closest to DRG are DRK and GNB respectively, but they have more GCD management.

All melee DPS are GCD-centered with the exception of DRG, since most of their damage is caused by GCDs. All jobs of course have oGCDs that enable damage because otherwise it'd be difficult to balance.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

It feels a bit more like '' line attacks '' are more of DRG's niche ( Nastrond, Geirskogul, Wyrmwind Thrust ).

I dunno how much I want to get into the discussion of removing skills because it's a touchy subject, but I think damage from these line attacks could go into Jumps instead and give Jumps a more active presence in the rotation.
Wyrmwind Thrust could be a Jump attack instead of another line attack.

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Line attacks are one of the core parts of DRG identity alongside jumps and dragon powers. The latter are mostly reflected in these line attacks, so I personally see no issue with them, and find WWT a great addition both thematically (combination of Midgardsormr's and Nidhogg's power) and mechanically (interaction between GCD and oGCD).

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

When you say '' interactions between GCDs and oGCDs '' are you referring to stuff like Continuation for GNB or something else?
I love Continuation as a concept for GNB but it's kinda frustrating at times when bosses are moving/ being moved around.

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I mean broadly. The kit needs a bit more interaction between and within each category. LotD for example could have some kind of interaction with the GCDs. DFD could enable a GCD or oGCD attack in a similar way Ikishoten and Bunshin do, etc.

There's still interaction since the goal is to fit all of our oGCD resources into the buff windows, but it wouldn't hurt for everything to be a tiny bit more cohesive.

I like pooling charges of Spineshatter Dive for buffs, for instance, but I feel like it could perhaps have a better role or an extra twist to it, although I'd be more than fine with it staying this way.

I don't think that we fundamentally disagree really on the gcd vs ogcd thing it's mostly a definition thing.
But I do see your point especially with Geirskogul and Mirage Dive tying into enabling the burst window, I definitely do agree that's unique to DRG.
Like I said tho I think '' revolved around '' was a poor choice of words because the implication there can be seen differently.
What I meant more was that they all have ogcd's as a present commonly recurring thing in their rotation, but yeah you're right that it plays into DRG in a more unique way.
And I don't think that aspect of DRG should be taken away at least.

Identities change tho, I don't think they're something that always need to be set in stone.
I do think that the fundamental core of a Jobs identity tho should remain the same, and for DRG I'd say that's Jumps while for NIN for example it's Ninjutsu's and for SAM it's Iaijutsu.
However we may disagree on whether we think line attacks are really what it should be or all that important to DRG.
When I think of DRG the first thing that comes to mind for me is Jump attacks, and I think it's the same for most people.
Personally at least I think Jump attacks with the same theme would be way cooler ( like the combo of Midgardsormr and Nidhogg ).

I see what you mean now with the interaction and I do like that idea.

Edit: I never really thought of the line attacks as being what reflects the dragon power side of things, I can see why you're saying that and I'd probably agree with that too.
However my opinion and preference still remain the same that I'd rather see it shift to be reflected in Jumps.
I don't dislike the addition of Wyrmwind Thrust either tho but I wish that it was thematically different ( a Jump or some kinda of acrobatic thing maybe ).

I suppose that it could be said in a way that to me it feels more like DRG is like a magical '' Dragon Knight '' rather than a Knight that uses jumps and acrobatics to slay dragons.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Identities change tho, I don't think they're something that always need to be set in stone.
I do think that the fundamental core of a Jobs identity tho should remain the same, and for DRG I'd say that's Jumps while for NIN for example it's Ninjutsu's and for SAM it's Iaijutsu.
However we may disagree on whether we think line attacks are really what it should be or all that important to DRG.

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To me, line attacks make all the sense because of the weapon DRG uses and mechanically they're the most versatile type of AoE. Sure it can be annoying to aim them with very big groups of mobs and gotta get used to it, especially if their hitboxes vary (this can be simply fixed by making the line AoE a bit wider on the sides), but they can be used for both AoE as well as for cleave. There's plenty of encounters with two enemies at the same time where you can just blast both with your line attacks: the 2nd boss of Nier 3, the different 2-target phases in TEA, UCoB, and more recently DSR, the adds in E1S and E7S, etc...

DRG is a job that has a different rotation for single target, 2 targets and 3 or more targets. Line attacks play into this and there's nothing more satisfying than cleaving all our GSK/NAS/WWT. Probably no other job thrives more in 2-target encounters (we deal even more if said targets can be stacked together for STD and DFD cleave), so this is why I find it unique and core to its gameplay.

The ff4 after years has the HOLY DRAGOON, because reaper gets to be the dark and moody half of dragoon, maybe dragoon can go holy?

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Originally Posted by Aco505

To me, line attacks make all the sense because of the weapon DRG uses and mechanically they're the most versatile type of AoE. Sure it can be annoying to aim them with very big groups of mobs and gotta get used to it, especially if their hitboxes vary (this can be simply fixed by making the line AoE a bit wider on the sides), but they can be used for both AoE as well as for cleave. There's plenty of encounters with two enemies at the same time where you can just blast both with your line attacks: the 2nd boss of Nier 3, the different 2-target phases in TEA, UCoB, and more recently DSR, the adds in E1S and E7S, etc...

DRG is a job that has a different rotation for single target, 2 targets and 3 or more targets. Line attacks play into this and there's nothing more satisfying than cleaving all our GSK/NAS/WWT. Probably no other job thrives more in 2-target encounters (we deal even more if said targets can be stacked together for STD and DFD cleave), so this is why I find it unique and core to its gameplay.

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Yeah my position on it remains unchanged but I see where you're coming from.
In the end of the day it's a matter of preference but I get why you wouldn't want it changed if you're maining DRG especially.
There's changes that have happened to MNK too that I fundamentally disagreed with so I get it can be upsetting if it happens.