Bring Back Kaiten

I played through the 6.1 MSQ Dungeon as Samurai and it felt weird and wrong, the removal of Kaiten was a misguided decision because it cuts too deep into the aspect of Kenki Management and the Understanding of how to utilize Kenki in given Situations, stating "Button Bloat" must be coming from someone who may never played Samurai or just started to play the maybe recently without really getting a feel of the job beyond lvl52, because Kaiten is an active Button that not only feels good to press but also rewards Good Kenki Management. I recently (before 6.1) played Blackmage and regarding Button Bloat Blackmage feels button bloated, Ley-Lines could be a Buff or rather Trait aswell as Augmentation, same with Life Surge for Dragoon kind of.. Kaiten though? It's too integral and essential to the Aspects of Highlvl Samurai Gameplay and Understanding. Regarding the changes of 6.1 I like that Tenka Goten is now a circle AoE and the garanteed Crit on Midare ect are nice but feel nonexistent because of the removal of Kaiten makes the Use of Iaijutsu incredibly weak. I imagined that Kaiten just should make the next Attack Direct Hit though aslong as Kaiten returns I'm fine with potency boosts aswell.

Please.

/plead

In My Opinion the Samurai is supposed to be a 'selfish' Damage Dealer, just doing damage and offering no Raid Utility, turning the amount of Damage into Utility. Though I have the feeling that I have to explain my Understanding of the Samurai's Design because many Samurai Player Demand further changes that have nothing to do with the current Problem of the Samurai.

1.: I disagree with the Removal of Hissatsu: Kaiten
The First Skill that Introduced Samurai Players to the Concept of Kenki Management is removed. In 6.1 you get Shinten at lvl52 instead of Kaiten, Shinten is just an Attack that you press, no interaction with Iaijutsu or other attacks, which means less Kenki Skills, Less Kenki Management, Less Thinking and Planning, Less Rewarding and Fun. And Well-trained Muscle Memory being destroyed for making things easier

2.: Button Bloat on Samurai and Explaination of Situations
There is no Button Bloat Samurai, as Samurai (and all other Jobs) have 2 Situations to take care of: Single Target and Area of Effect (AoE)

For Single Target Samurai has:
Hakaze (Combo Starter), Yukikaze (Snow Crest), Jinpu (Damage Buff), Shifu (Speed Buff), Gekko (Moon Crest), Kasha (Petal Crest), Shinten (25Kenki,1s),Senei (25Kenki,2min), Shoha (3 Meditation Stack Finisher), Higanbana (1 Crest Iaijutsu,DoT), Midare Setsugekka (3 Crest Iaijutsu,Big Damage Burst Buster), Enpi (Ranged)

For AoE Samurai has:
Fuga (Combo Starter, later Fuko), Mangetsu (Moon Crest), Oka (Petal Crest),Kyuten (25Kenki,1s), Guren (25Kenki,2min), Mumyo Shoha (3 Meditation Stack Finisher), Ogi Namikiri (New Skill,Ikishoten required to activate,2min) Tenka Goken (2 Crest Iaijutsu)

it looks like much but everything has it's place, other skills like Iaijutsu, Ikishoten, Tsubamegaeshi and Kaiten and Hagakure are additional skills and serve to enable preperation for the situations above. Though I have to stress that as Samurai you have 2 different rotations for given Situations. I expect a Single Target Ogi to be added in 7.0 and with Kaiten hopefully returning Samurai still would had no Button Bloat.

3.: Kaiten made Iaijutsu interact with Kenki
Think about it, why was the first Kenki Skill a Buff and not an Attack? so your lvl30 Ability interacts with your new lvl52 resource! After lvl52 you had to spare 20 Kenki for an even more Powerful Iaijutsu, thus validating Kenki's existence. With the Removal of Kaiten in 6.1 we also could get rid off Kenki alltogether and revert to an Gaugeless Cool Down System, but I do not want that because Kenki got validated by Kaiten and both are a Part of the Samurai Identity

Not gonna lie been using Shinten where I would Kaiten and it fills the void/muscle memory fairly well, not entirely sure why folks feel Kaiten was such a big loss in that sense, but definitely think the auto crit and the massive tank in potency was the wrong way to go about... Also if it was all a matter of button bloat putting Ikishoten and the Namikiri feels like a far better idea....

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

...the removal of Kaiten was a misguided decision because it cuts too deep into the aspect of Kenki Management...

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I would argue that it didn't "cut too deep" so much as it completely removed the need to manage kenki at all.

The one thing that's left that we'd need kenki for as a matter of timing is Senei, which has the same cooldown as Ikishoten, so in the one situation that you actually need kenki, you're guaranteed to have it, so go ahead and spam Shinten mindlessly - no need to manage kenki at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

In My Opinion the Samurai is supposed to be a 'selfish' Damage Dealer, just doing damage and offering no Raid Utility, turning the amount of Damage into Utility. Though I have the feeling that I have to explain my Understanding of the Samurai's Design because many Samurai Player Demand further changes that have nothing to do with the current Problem of the Samurai.

1.: I disagree with the Removal of Hissatsu: Kaiten
The First Skill that Introduced Samurai Players to the Concept of Kenki Management is removed. In 6.1 you get Shinten at lvl52 instead of Kaiten, Shinten is just an Attack that you press, no interaction with Iaijutsu or other attacks, which means less Kenki Skills, Less Kenki Management, Less Thinking and Planning, Less Rewarding and Fun. And Well-trained Muscle Memory being destroyed for making things easier

2.: Button Bloat on Samurai and Explaination of Situations
There is no Button Bloat Samurai, as Samurai (and all other Jobs) have 2 Situations to take care of: Single Target and Area of Effect (AoE)

For Single Target Samurai has:
Hakaze (Combo Starter), Yukikaze (Snow Crest), Jinpu (Damage Buff), Shifu (Speed Buff), Gekko (Moon Crest), Kasha (Petal Crest), Shinten (25Kenki,1s),Senei (25Kenki,2min), Shoha (3 Meditation Stack Finisher), Higanbana (1 Crest Iaijutsu,DoT), Midare Setsugekka (3 Crest Iaijutsu,Big Damage Burst Buster), Enpi (Ranged)

For AoE Samurai has:
Fuga (Combo Starter, later Fuko), Mangetsu (Moon Crest), Oka (Petal Crest),Kyuten (25Kenki,1s), Guren (25Kenki,2min), Mumyo Shoha (3 Meditation Stack Finisher), Ogi Namikiri (New Skill,Ikishoten required to activate,2min) Tenka Goken (2 Crest Iaijutsu)

it looks like much but everything has it's place, other skills like Iaijutsu, Ikishoten, Tsubamegaeshi and Kaiten and Hagakure are additional skills and serve to enable preperation for the situations above. Though I have to stress that as Samurai you have 2 different rotations for given Situations. I expect a Single Target Ogi to be added in 7.0 and with Kaiten hopefully returning Samurai still would had no Button Bloat.

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I think it's important for me to point out (speaking as someone with a physical disability that impacts my hands) that button bloat is a more complex issue than it might seem. That's why I think if SE really wants to tackle that issue, they should consider condensing certain combos to a single button. However this request is not intended to result in entire rotations being condensed to one button. Additionally, (and I cannot possibly stress this enough) such a solution should only ever be implemented as an optional feature. It's not going to work for everyone and should not be implemented unilaterally. But nobody would have room to complain about jobs being "too hard" then. And SE would never again have any legitimate basis to make unwanted changes like this.

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Originally Posted by Theodric_Thorne

I think it's important for me to point out (speaking as someone with a physical disability that impacts my hands) that button bloat is a more complex issue than it might seem. That's why I think if SE really wants to tackle that issue, they should consider condensing certain combos to a single button. However this request is not intended to result in entire rotations being condensed to one button. Additionally, (and I cannot possibly stress this enough) such a solution should only ever be implemented as an optional feature. It's not going to work for everyone and should not be implemented unilaterally. But nobody would have room to complain about jobs being "too hard" then. And SE would never again have any legitimate basis to make unwanted changes like this.

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I think a big problem is that a lot of us don't buy the button bloat reasoning - that isn't to say that we don't acknowledge that it might be something they need to address, but rather that if button bloat was truly what they were trying to address, removing Kaiten isn't a rational first choice.

They passed up on other obvious options that would have reduced button bloat without affecting the job's core gameplay, so we can safely assume that they removed Kaiten specifically to affect the job's core gameplay - not to reduce button bloat.

So, if they didn't remove Kaiten to address button bloat, then we can infer that they did it to "streamline" the job and/or make it less bursty, and since they also redistributed potency to make it less bursty, it seems exceptionally likely that they removed Kaiten explicitly for that reason and are just using button bloat as a scapegoat.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

I think a big problem is that a lot of us don't buy the button bloat reasoning - that isn't to say that we don't acknowledge that it might be something they need to address, but rather that if button bloat was truly what they were trying to address, removing Kaiten isn't a rational first choice.

They passed up on other obvious options that would have reduced button bloat without affecting the job's core gameplay, so we can safely assume that they removed Kaiten specifically to affect the job's core gameplay - not to reduce button bloat.

So, if they didn't remove Kaiten to address button bloat, then we can infer that they did it to "streamline" the job and/or make it less bursty, and since they also redistributed potency to make it less bursty, it seems exceptionally likely that they removed Kaiten explicitly for that reason and are just using button bloat as a scapegoat.

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Well, supposedly, the more accurate translations infer action bloat as in button frequency, rather than number of buttons. Which, even if that is the case like they say, the problem remains unsolved because without kaiten we just fill that space with another shinten, thus still meeting the same APM they were trying to reduce.

Playing without Kaiten the past few days feels like I'm doing something without a thumb or finger and I'm having phantom pains trying to play without it thanks to forcefully trying to undo muscle memory

My Main Question remains:
What Skill combines the Iaijutsu Mechanic with the Kenki Resource?
which was what Kaiten did also, you invested 20 Kenki for 50% more damage, true it worked with all Weaponskills (not exclusively for Iaijutsu) but still validated Kenki as a Resource to increase Damage output for the existing Kit. Now Kenki is tagged on and disconnected from Iaijutsu and Meditation doesn't count since it is completely Kenki Independent.

That is my Main Issue that I see with the Kaiten Removal, the Synergy of Iaijutsu and Kenki is destroyed. What would change if Senei and Guren wouldn't have the 25 Kenki requirement, but still had the shared 2 minute could down, I'd argue nothing would change and then we have Kenki for Shinten(and Kyuten for AoE) and I think then we could get some alternative Shinten/Kyuten Ready Proc Trigger System and voila: Kenki has become useless!

I do not want that to happen and That is why I think that Kaiten made Kenki matter in first place, what else would be the reason for Kaiten to be the first Kenki Ability than to introduce Kenki as a New Resource to Increase Damage? later Kenki Abilities were added to Expand and Deepen Kenki Management, but without Kaiten that doesn't matter as much anymore.