Please don't join endgame content with a job you dont know how to play

I have nothing against being new to a job, or content. We've all been there, we've all been new at some point - but please, before you join any endgame content, have a basic grasp of your job so as to not grief other players.

For me, I honestly hate getting paired up with another AST player who has no idea how the job functions and is constantly negating my card draws with theirs, or switching to the same sect as to negate our aspected aoes. Since they have no idea how the job works, it leads to just a lot of wasted MP and card draws.

Frustration level off the roof.

Which end game content are you referring to.

To be fair, it sounds like the issue was related to 2x AST, which is hard to learn in basic dungeons where there is only 1 healer. Did you bring any of this up with them during the run?

Also, afaik, AST Sect that gives regen is generally considered better than shields - no? In this case, don't the regens stack like Medica II/Regen?

Gotta agree. There's nothing more annoying than having a farm party, only to have someone join as a job they don't know and not say anything, and when they wipe you get a "Sorry first time on this job for this."

IT's a bit frustrating. Though for DF I don't mind it too much as DF content is a great place to interact with a lot of different playstyles.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Which end game content are you referring to.

To be fair, it sounds like the issue was related to 2x AST, which is hard to learn in basic dungeons where there is only 1 healer. Did you bring any of this up with them during the run?

Also, afaik, AST Sect that gives regen is generally considered better than shields - no? In this case, don't the regens stack like Medica II/Regen?

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Noct, and Diurnal sects each have their own perks. Noct is good for preventative damage if you're familiar with the fight, and know when incoming damage is going to occur. Basically, Noct is good for keeping your teammates from dying to spike damage.

It's not hard to read your ability descriptions though, where it clearly states that the effect cannot be stacked. All it takes is for the player to simply read through the skills to have a general know-how of how the job operates. But to simply throw on a weapon because it got defaulted into your armory because no one wanted it and then trying it out without any idea of how it works is just going to cause a lot of grief among others who you may join with.

(edit: And to clarify, no. The regen aspected Helios does not stack with another Ast's)

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

Noct, and Diurnal sects each have their own perks. Noct is good for preventative damage if you're familiar with the fight, and know when incoming damage is going to occur. Basically, Noct is good for keeping your teammates from dying to spike damage.

It's not hard to read your ability descriptions though, where it clearly states that the effect cannot be stacked. All it takes is for the player to simply read through the skills to have a general know-how of how the job operates. But to simply throw on a weapon because it got defaulted into your armory because no one wanted it and then trying it out without any idea of how it works is just going to cause a lot of grief among others who you may join with.

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Honestly, the base concept of this post is kind of a catch-22. Yeah, you can read your skills and such, you really should be familiar with what they do and all but there really is only so much you can learn outside of end-game content about how to play your job. For the most part, specifically in reference to your main complaint here, you're running mainly 4-man content in which case you will never get to experience 2 of the same tank or healer class together in the same content.

Yes, there's Bismark and Ravana that are 8-mans, and we have Void Ark now, but none of that content is really to the level where it's going to force the kind of 'perfect coordinated play' that is required in the hard end game content. Even Alex NM isn't going to really force you into positions of playing your role to its utmost. I agree, you should have an understanding of how your job works before taking it to that level, but there's no real good way to learn how to play a role in a specific composition for end game.... unless you go and play in that composition in end game.

Also, since you say that you hate getting 'paired up' with another class means you're doing DF stuff... which, first off, is DF so you shouldn't be surprised that you run into some bad players... but also the real end game content where you reeeaaally need to know your job is only available for pre-made groups at the moment.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

I have nothing against being new to a job, or content. We've all been there, we've all been new at some point - but please, before you join any endgame content, have a basic grasp of your job so as to not grief other players.

For me, I honestly hate getting paired up with another AST player who has no idea how the job functions and is constantly negating my card draws with theirs, or switching to the same sect as to negate our aspected aoes. Since they have no idea how the job works, it leads to just a lot of wasted MP and card draws.

Frustration level off the roof.

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Wait until you are on SCH, go into and 8 man, see an AST, see them switch TOO nocturnal sect just before the fight, and then have them overwrite everything you do...............bye bye deployed adlo as the Noct.AST has decided to use A.Helios.....

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Honestly, the base concept of this post is kind of a catch-22. Yeah, you can read your skills and such, you really should be familiar with what they do and all but there really is only so much you can learn outside of end-game content about how to play your job. For the most part, specifically in reference to your main complaint here, you're running mainly 4-man content in which case you will never get to experience 2 of the same tank or healer class together in the same content.

Yes, there's Bismark and Ravana that are 8-mans, and we have Void Ark now, but none of that content is really to the level where it's going to force the kind of 'perfect coordinated play' that is required in the hard end game content. Even Alex NM isn't going to really force you into positions of playing your role to its utmost. I agree, you should have an understanding of how your job works before taking it to that level, but there's no real good way to learn how to play a role in a specific composition for end game.... unless you go and play in that composition in end game.

Also, since you say that you hate getting 'paired up' with another class means you're doing DF stuff... which, first off, is DF so you shouldn't be surprised that you run into some bad players... but also the real end game content where you reeeaaally need to know your job is only available for pre-made groups at the moment.

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Even if you've never done any content as AST (Which is hard to believe, considering that you to level the job.) simply reading the skills should provide you with sufficient knowledge of the job to play correctly. It tells you the effect cannot be stacked, and even goes as far as to tell the player that Noct shields will not stack with Adloq shields. The rest comes with practice, I agree - but if you don't even know the basics of the skills than therein lies the problem.

You don't have to have joined a Savage Alex run to learn what is literally spoon fed to us in the description of each skill as it's learned. It's literally right there. While content like Bis, and Ravana, Void Arc are not at the same level as Alex, you can very well wipe a group if a dps check isn't reached, or you're forcing the other healer to spend all their MP picking up your slack, especially in new content.

I don't mind being paired up with an AST player, and I get paired up with them pretty frequently in Party Finder. Two ASTs can sync with each other pretty well. It's when another AST player has NO idea how the job operates that things become frustrating to deal with, especially when you're losing out on a lot of MP and draws because they have no idea what they're doing. In almost any instance when two AST players find themselves in the same group, they immediately switch to differing sects, even beginners, heck beginners know to switch to Diurnal when they even get partnered up with a SCH. This doesn't require you to have taken on Alex Savage to know, it's honestly the very basic to playing AST.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Wait until you are on SCH, go into and 8 man, see an AST, see them switch TOO nocturnal sect just before the fight, and then have them overwrite everything you do...............bye bye deployed adlo as the Noct.AST has decided to use A.Helios.....

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Yeah, well I was doing a Ravana with a PF group, and there was another AST who was already on Diurnal, and I was on Noct. They would wait until I draw my AOE Balance card, and then immediately overlap it with an AOE Spear card. Not once, not twice, but 4 times. Then on the next attempt they switched to noct without me noticing and I'm watching my AOEs get overwritten again and again. I just can't imagine how you could play a job and not have any idea how it works. :c

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

You don't have to have joined a Savage Alex run to learn what is literally spoon fed to us in the description of each skill as it's learned. It's literally right there.

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I've done content as everything, since I do have everything leveled and while I am good on a number of the jobs I do feel like some of them I play less efficiently than others. Now, that being said... and I will note this as an actual teacher... there is a rather huge gulf between the theory of how your skills work (i.e.: reading them and taking note of what they tell you) and application of how they work (knowing when to use them, how they interact with other skills, when to skip this skill, etc.)

Theory is easy. Theory is useful. In theory I know how a guitar is supposed to be played, I understand the musical scales and their relationships to each other. Can I play the guitar? Passably, because I've spent hours on hours on hours practicing it, but just reading a book on playing the guitar does not mean I'm going to be able to do it.

Don't confuse theory with application. Having one does not imply you will have the other, and the only place to learn the application of the theory is in the execution of the content itself.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

I've done content as everything, since I do have everything leveled and while I am good on a number of the jobs I do feel like some of them I play less efficiently than others. Now, that being said... and I will note this as an actual teacher... there is a rather huge gulf between the theory of how your skills work (i.e.: reading them and taking note of what they tell you) and application of how they work (knowing when to use them, how they interact with other skills, when to skip this skill, etc.)

Theory is easy. Theory is useful. In theory I know how a guitar is supposed to be played, I understand the musical scales and their relationships to each other. Can I play the guitar? Passably, because I've spent hours on hours on hours practicing it, but just reading a book on playing the guitar does not mean I'm going to be able to do it.

Don't confuse theory with application. Having one does not imply you will have the other, and the only place to learn the application of the theory is in the content itself.

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Your analogy isn't appropriate for this situation.

If you read a book on how a Guitar is supposed to be played, then even if you've never played one in the past, you know the basics like how to hold the guitar, you know that you're supposed to use a pick, etc etc. You don't read a book on a guitar, and try to hold it like a cello, and play the strings with a violin bow. You will never become familiar with playing a guitar if you didn't read the book well enough to know how it's held, or how the strings work - to play efficiently it would be the equivalent of an AST knowing that pairing Celestial Opposition with Luminferous Aether grants you more MP. Or that Lightspeed grants you instant stoneskins. Not something you'd learn from reading the skills like you would read from a guitar guide, like hey DONT USE A BOW on a guitar like you would on a violin, or don't try to stack your shields with another SCH or another Noct Ast.

If you just got finished reading a book on playing a guitar, you don't immediately jump into playing professionally in a band. Your example seems very contrived in order to suit your agenda in the conversation, which leads me to believe that you're only arguing with me here for argument's sake.