Please don't join endgame content with a job you dont know how to play

[KyahAlmasy]

I have nothing against being new to a job, or content. We've all been there, we've all been new at some point - but please, before you join any endgame content, have a basic grasp of your job so as to not grief other players.

For me, I honestly hate getting paired up with another AST player who has no idea how the job functions and is constantly negating my card draws with theirs, or switching to the same sect as to negate our aspected aoes. Since they have no idea how the job works, it leads to just a lot of wasted MP and card draws.

Frustration level off the roof.

[Kaurie]

Which end game content are you referring to.

To be fair, it sounds like the issue was related to 2x AST, which is hard to learn in basic dungeons where there is only 1 healer. Did you bring any of this up with them during the run?

Also, afaik, AST Sect that gives regen is generally considered better than shields - no? In this case, don't the regens stack like Medica II/Regen?

[KyahAlmasy]

Which end game content are you referring to.

To be fair, it sounds like the issue was related to 2x AST, which is hard to learn in basic dungeons where there is only 1 healer. Did you bring any of this up with them during the run?

Also, afaik, AST Sect that gives regen is generally considered better than shields - no? In this case, don't the regens stack like Medica II/Regen?

Noct, and Diurnal sects each have their own perks. Noct is good for preventative damage if you're familiar with the fight, and know when incoming damage is going to occur. Basically, Noct is good for keeping your teammates from dying to spike damage.

It's not hard to read your ability descriptions though, where it clearly states that the effect cannot be stacked. All it takes is for the player to simply read through the skills to have a general know-how of how the job operates. But to simply throw on a weapon because it got defaulted into your armory because no one wanted it and then trying it out without any idea of how it works is just going to cause a lot of grief among others who you may join with.

(edit: And to clarify, no. The regen aspected Helios does not stack with another Ast's)

[Malzian]

Noct, and Diurnal sects each have their own perks. Noct is good for preventative damage if you're familiar with the fight, and know when incoming damage is going to occur. Basically, Noct is good for keeping your teammates from dying to spike damage.

It's not hard to read your ability descriptions though, where it clearly states that the effect cannot be stacked. All it takes is for the player to simply read through the skills to have a general know-how of how the job operates. But to simply throw on a weapon because it got defaulted into your armory because no one wanted it and then trying it out without any idea of how it works is just going to cause a lot of grief among others who you may join with.

Honestly, the base concept of this post is kind of a catch-22. Yeah, you can read your skills and such, you really should be familiar with what they do and all but there really is only so much you can learn outside of end-game content about how to play your job. For the most part, specifically in reference to your main complaint here, you're running mainly 4-man content in which case you will never get to experience 2 of the same tank or healer class together in the same content.

Yes, there's Bismark and Ravana that are 8-mans, and we have Void Ark now, but none of that content is really to the level where it's going to force the kind of 'perfect coordinated play' that is required in the hard end game content. Even Alex NM isn't going to really force you into positions of playing your role to its utmost. I agree, you should have an understanding of how your job works before taking it to that level, but there's no real good way to learn how to play a role in a specific composition for end game.... unless you go and play in that composition in end game.

Also, since you say that you hate getting 'paired up' with another class means you're doing DF stuff... which, first off, is DF so you shouldn't be surprised that you run into some bad players... but also the real end game content where you reeeaaally need to know your job is only available for pre-made groups at the moment.

[KyahAlmasy]

Honestly, the base concept of this post is kind of a catch-22. Yeah, you can read your skills and such, you really should be familiar with what they do and all but there really is only so much you can learn outside of end-game content about how to play your job. For the most part, specifically in reference to your main complaint here, you're running mainly 4-man content in which case you will never get to experience 2 of the same tank or healer class together in the same content.

Yes, there's Bismark and Ravana that are 8-mans, and we have Void Ark now, but none of that content is really to the level where it's going to force the kind of 'perfect coordinated play' that is required in the hard end game content. Even Alex NM isn't going to really force you into positions of playing your role to its utmost. I agree, you should have an understanding of how your job works before taking it to that level, but there's no real good way to learn how to play a role in a specific composition for end game.... unless you go and play in that composition in end game.

Also, since you say that you hate getting 'paired up' with another class means you're doing DF stuff... which, first off, is DF so you shouldn't be surprised that you run into some bad players... but also the real end game content where you reeeaaally need to know your job is only available for pre-made groups at the moment.

Even if you've never done any content as AST (Which is hard to believe, considering that you to level the job.) simply reading the skills should provide you with sufficient knowledge of the job to play correctly. It tells you the effect cannot be stacked, and even goes as far as to tell the player that Noct shields will not stack with Adloq shields. The rest comes with practice, I agree - but if you don't even know the basics of the skills than therein lies the problem.

You don't have to have joined a Savage Alex run to learn what is literally spoon fed to us in the description of each skill as it's learned. It's literally right there. While content like Bis, and Ravana, Void Arc are not at the same level as Alex, you can very well wipe a group if a dps check isn't reached, or you're forcing the other healer to spend all their MP picking up your slack, especially in new content.

I don't mind being paired up with an AST player, and I get paired up with them pretty frequently in Party Finder. Two ASTs can sync with each other pretty well. It's when another AST player has NO idea how the job operates that things become frustrating to deal with, especially when you're losing out on a lot of MP and draws because they have no idea what they're doing. In almost any instance when two AST players find themselves in the same group, they immediately switch to differing sects, even beginners, heck beginners know to switch to Diurnal when they even get partnered up with a SCH. This doesn't require you to have taken on Alex Savage to know, it's honestly the very basic to playing AST.

[Malzian]

You don't have to have joined a Savage Alex run to learn what is literally spoon fed to us in the description of each skill as it's learned. It's literally right there.

I've done content as everything, since I do have everything leveled and while I am good on a number of the jobs I do feel like some of them I play less efficiently than others. Now, that being said... and I will note this as an actual teacher... there is a rather huge gulf between the theory of how your skills work (i.e.: reading them and taking note of what they tell you) and application of how they work (knowing when to use them, how they interact with other skills, when to skip this skill, etc.)

Theory is easy. Theory is useful. In theory I know how a guitar is supposed to be played, I understand the musical scales and their relationships to each other. Can I play the guitar? Passably, because I've spent hours on hours on hours practicing it, but just reading a book on playing the guitar does not mean I'm going to be able to do it.

Don't confuse theory with application. Having one does not imply you will have the other, and the only place to learn the application of the theory is in the execution of the content itself.

[Riki_Namu]

But to simply throw on a weapon because it got defaulted into your armory because no one wanted it and then trying it out without any idea of how it works is just going to cause a lot of grief among others who you may join with.

What game are you playing? They still have to level the job to 60 and have the ilvl req to join end game content. They cant just throw the ast weapon on and be an ast at 60. Contradicted yourself a bit there. Perhaps when they read effect cannot be stacked they thought it meant with their own skills. Because WHM can stack regens.... Perhaps instead of raging you should explain to them that they should be in NOCT while you cover the other.

[KyahAlmasy]

What game are you playing? They still have to level the job to 60 and have the ilvl req to join end game content. They cant just throw the ast weapon on and be an ast at 60. Contradicted yourself a bit there. Perhaps when they read effect cannot be stacked they thought it meant with their own skills. Because WHM can stack regens.... Perhaps instead of raging you should explain to them that they should be in NOCT while you cover the other.

Because FATE grinding requires a player to know their job right? You know how many players are out there who FATE grinded from 50-60 and literally have no idea how the job operates? And never even completed the job quests for all the skills? Just because you got to 60 doesn't mean you know how the job works. So no, I didn't contradict anything.

And who said I was raging on anyone? If you read my comments in this thread, I did stop the group to calmly explain to them how AST works, and explained how the skills worked. But I don't feel that it was right for them to join endgame content without any idea of how their job works, it's disrespectful to the other players who are there to clear the content. I have a level 60 Dragoon in tome gear, but I have no idea how it works, or how the chains are done -- am I going to joina Thordan ex so I can learn? No, I would not. And I certainly wouldn't be surprised if I pissed a lot of people off or got kicked really fast for being clueless the entire run. Perhaps you should be less presumptious and actually get an idea of what this thread is about before hopping on your white horse to defend a cause that was never the problem in the first place.

[FoxyAreku]

Which end game content are you referring to.

To be fair, it sounds like the issue was related to 2x AST, which is hard to learn in basic dungeons where there is only 1 healer. Did you bring any of this up with them during the run?

Also, afaik, AST Sect that gives regen is generally considered better than shields - no? In this case, don't the regens stack like Medica II/Regen?

Double regen is terrible and leads to nothing but overhealing. Any AST that picks diurnal sect when with a white mage or another diurnal ast is bad and should feel bad (though in the case of the latter, both are at fault as either of them could change).

[Kaurie]

Double regen is terrible and leads to nothing but overhealing. Any AST that picks diurnal sect when with a white mage or another diurnal ast is bad and should feel bad (though in the case of the latter, both are at fault as either of them could change).

Double regen certainly has its uses.

I haven't leveled AST yet, due to having 60 WHM/SCH, so I have got my heals down. I just had the understanding that their shields were not very strong, and that the regen was the way to go. Perhaps this was changed/buffed/nerfed over time and I didn't realize.