Why are we forcing Jack of All Trade jobs into DPS/Tank/Healer?

I feel like the best solution for Jack of all trade jobs like DNC/RDM/BLU ect ect.

Is to just introduce 3 "support" role jobs into 4.0 and start a new formula.


Why can't we make these the new Debuff/Buff jobs that are utility based?


So imagine RDM, in a party that's like TANK(2),DPS(4),Support(2),Healer(2). 4 man dungeons from 60 on, become 5 man dungeons.

Pre-60 content, support jobs can replace a traditional role, we're over geared in old content anyways, getting a jack of all trades job that does a little less in it's role shouldn't play too much of a factor considering they do something else well as a plus.



Support Roles, will contribue to (DPS)
They will Buff the party, much like DPS keep up dots on bosses, they will Dot their teamates with timed buffs. Increasing Raid DPS.

They will Debuff the bosses. (Remove the slow/paralyze restrictions where the monsters get immuned after like 2.) Make bosses hit harder, and faster, so that these things become more of a necessity. Can add new debuffs, make bosses Cast game changing buffs on themselves that must be removed by Dispel like moves. Same for Trash mobs.

This will add diversity to already existing jobs. DRG? now they might want to slow during their rotation so the RDM can skip their slow, and give them a Buff.

Maybe MNK might want to one ilm punch now, so BLU can be free'd up to do a move, the team needs.

Also cause a dynamic where support roles and Tanks need to pay attention to eachother so cool downs and debuffs are placed at proper times.

This could unlock enfeeble moves to be something useful. So we can get more moves from trash mobs that require more attention than just "Watch the floor for glowing stuff" this will make trash more appealing at least to me.

EX: Mob casts armor on itself
You can either dispel it.
Wait til it wears off by attacking another mob
Have the Monk one ilm punch
Have any magic jobs attack it instead of the physical jobs.
Or maybe have physical jobs spike damage it to remove it. like it has to take at least 5k DMG within 1 second for it to break.

Having one buff have multilple avenues of removal like this adds depth in your approach imo. Yes there will eventually be ONE way best for a specific party set up. But you'll have to adapt to that every time you PUG.



I welcome to hear counter arguments, or constructive criticisms to this idea, or even just opinions of why you don't like it. Maybe you like the basic existing formula and don't like it to get more complex than it already is. Maybe you kind of like it, but would change something

Thoughts?

My counter to your arguement is something that you point out. DPS classes already come with counters, so creating a Buff/Debuff option could create serious balancing problems.

However, considering that everyone who raids all plays (generally) by the same rotations, I believe that your arguement for changing up the 3 set party match system to 4 set party match system has quite a bit of merit.

Additionally, it is one of the things that I believe that SE has always done really well in the single player versions of the game. The overall party is balanced, but there is always one buff and one debuff specialist. FFXIII in-game mechanics not being taken into account here.

In the end, I think your on to something, and it is something that would bring alot of depth to the game overall.

I also think that this in turn would allow for the Dev Team to have more freedom to create the mechanics and difficulty that seems to be plaguing the raid community based on what I have heard about AS3 being almost unbeatable or requiring a huge DPS check.

I think the Buff/Debuff addition (which in turn would be able to add up to 4 characters total to the game at 4.0 - possible bonus) would probably make AS3 easier considering the added mechanics to buff and debuff.

As for a minor point of going from 4 to 5 man dungeons, well, I was pissed they weren't 5 man dungeons after watching the opening 2.x movie and then getting my first dungeon. I am still waiting on them to start making them into 5 man dungeons.

Bring the hate or Show the love.

http://www.augustana.edu/users/arwalters/design/RGB.gif
Cyan Healer/tank > Party heals/party damage mitigation from MP skills and TP skills.
Yellow Healer/DPS > Party heals/DPS skills using MP skills and TP skills.
Magenta DPS/Tank > Mob debuffs/Party buffs Skills using TP. Buffs are short duration 5-10 seconds, possibly stackable?


This has been an Idea I've had since forever. There is always 2-4 dps in a party in which a spot could easily fit the role of support. A 4 player party can have a dps spot interchangable with a support spot. A 8 player party can have 2 dps spots interchangable with a support spot. There's so much possibility here that its unreal. This is really just a very rough draft. Ultimately though, this could add so much variety to the game that it will probably not happen simply because of that.

In before Balancing issues, dungeon/raids need redesigned, devs understaffed, can't have nothing nice... etc...

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Originally Posted by Aoxaviar

My counter to your arguement is something that you point out. DPS classes already come with counters, so creating a Buff/Debuff option could create serious balancing problems.

However, considering that everyone who raids all plays (generally) by the same rotations, I believe that your arguement for changing up the 3 set party match system to 4 set party match system has quite a bit of merit.

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Yeah I considered that, That's why I believe all the support jobs should universally share a few of the moves. For example. Removing buffs. If we made it mandatory to remove a buff off of Alexander, MNK would be COMPLETELY necessary for every group. They'd get in for free.


But to make that move useful, if all Support roles have Dispel type move. MNK isn't completely necessary but might still be wanted to free up the support role from having to be the one to dispel everytime.

Slow/Dispel/Paralyze would be moves/spells all support jobs share universally. But they'll have other tools that are unique to them. These unique tools can be used MORE if DRG/MNK/BLM ect ect help out with debuffs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

http://www.augustana.edu/users/arwalters/design/RGB.gif
Cyan Healer/tank > Party heals/party damage mitigation from MP skills and TP skills.
Yellow Healer/DPS > Party heals/DPS skills using MP skills and TP skills.
Magenta DPS/Tank > Mob debuffs/Party buffs Skills using TP. Buffs are short duration 5-10 seconds, possibly stackable?


This has been an Idea I've had since forever. There is always 2-4 dps in a party in which a spot could easily fit the role of support. A 4 player party can have a dps spot interchangable with a support spot. A 8 player party can have 2 dps spots interchangable with a support spot. There's so much possibility here that its unreal. This is really just a very rough draft. Ultimately though, this could add so much variety to the game that it will probably not happen simply because of that.

In before Balancing issues, dungeon/raids need redesigned, devs understaffed, can't have nothing nice... etc...

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That graph beautifully shows how a support role could fill 2 roles in the old content. Depending on their unique skills they acquire obviously

I would be for changing up this trinity to a 4 group role, but according to this plan a support would be considered a DPS when doing older content? I only ask cus I either mis-read or didn't see mention of it when say helping a person through older content as I don't see it being a Tank/heal/dps/support for Satasha.

Supports would definitely have to be 2nd tier classes aquired at lvl 30. There's no reason for a support before that. My honest opinion though would be to make supports a cross class job aquired at lvl 60, SE would even like that cause it gives people a reason to get to 60 if they are still unsure about the game or what class they want to play.

I don't see any reason why the job shouldn't be able to play the 1-30 old content though? Old content is already mind numbingly easy anyway...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

I would be for changing up this trinity to a 4 group role, but according to this plan a support would be considered a DPS when doing older content? I only ask cus I either mis-read or didn't see mention of it when say helping a person through older content as I don't see it being a Tank/heal/dps/support for Satasha.

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I'm not entirely sure "myself" yet, It could go 2 routes imo.

Buff old content so it could be 5 man in old content.

Or Allow a Support role, that fits into that graph above.

RDM would fit into yellow. So they could fill either the DPS role, or Healer role. They would just have to change their mindset to fill the role, and use the proper moves. So if RDM can slow/paralyze right? It having bad heals shouldn't hurt as much. So it can fill it's role,

as DPS
It can slow/paralyze, cast spells while hitting with a sword. The enfeebles free up the Healer to DPS more. So DPS is not loss too greatly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Supports would definitely have to be 2nd tier classes aquired at lvl 30. There's no reason for a support before that. My honest opinion though would be to make supports a cross class job aquired at lvl 60, SE would even like that cause it gives people a reason to get to 60 if they are still unsure about the game or what class they want to play.

I don't see any reason why the job shouldn't be able to play the 1-30 old content though? Old content is already mind numbingly easy anyway...

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I guess simply because MCH and DRK get to start at 30?

So long as we're on the topic of making a support role as a 5th slot :# could we get SE to revamp MCH/BRD so BRD is actually song-based support and MCH is an actual DPS >#< as it stands BRD is a Ranger with 3 super lacklustre songs and MCH is kind of a clone :# shoot BRD into that support slot and MCH into an actual DPS slot. I love BRD, I really do, but this isn't Bard. It's like someone calling themselves a tank simply because they have 1 skill (crossclassed) when in all actually they're not :/ I want a true song-based BRD plis >#<

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Indiction

So long as we're on the topic of making a support role as a 5th slot :#
<

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I remember someone talking about skill trait trees, Maybe in the future we can get ways that you can customize your BRD to be more support like, while someone else can customize theirs to stay more traditional.

So many future possibilities, I'd even be fine with them just becoming support roles once it comes out. and I'm a 60 Brd. just be careful of the BRD's out there who like current playstyle of basically a DPS with a couple utility songs.

I personally just want this game to do a "small" evolve next expansion. and not stay in the same formula forever. I also think Materia has such a huge potential role for horizontal progression while maintaining the vertical progression for others, but that's for another thread.

I prefer how it is now, how support is ingrained into every tank,healer,dps naturally with things like Virus/Disembowel/The Balance/Fey Wind/etc.


Its hard to balance a support job, also it's hard to quantify their effectivness. Given an 8 man party, would 4 DPS do about the same as 3DPS and 1Support would? How would this be parsable and how would we know if the Support is being lazy since it doesn't have an obvious way to gauge effectivness DPS can be parsed, Tanks just need to hold hate and not die, healers need to keep people alive. Support = ?

Would support be given their own heals and dps skills so they can be useful at low levels? It gets exceedingly complicated and one of the reasons they omitted dedicated support classes in XIV is because they only worked in XI due to how slow the combat was. Many people complained that support jobs were boring in XI too, aka bring RDM to do nothing but chainspell stun one move and nothing else really. Or, bring a BRD to NiTro+Soul Voice songs for DPS jobs then afk for the rest of the fight. COR was interesting in that it was the DPS version of an AST in that it had 'Cards' except they were rolls (could have 2 up at a time though and they were always AoE), but they were a ranged DPS class (though not as raw strength DPS as Ranger was, since the added buffs to the party supplemented their own DPS).