Punished by the game for being a Dragoon. (Magic defense and 2.4)

Hello,

Unlike to recent discussions about dragoon being unbalanced and stuffs in the way they dps or buffs as a direct comparison to ninja (which isn't the subject of my thread, please leave the debate for another thread :p)

My static and I decided to show you a little preview of the real problem about drg, what is a dragoon's life in FCOB right now and how they re punished by the game itself, not because of bad gameplay or bad luck... But just because their magic defense is way too low :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSQuL9gC470 ***Blood for Blood wasn't used before nerve cloud in this video!*** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbDqGo4mmQs
Special detail about the above video : Nerve Cloud which appear everytime after the adds phase end (as a signature attack) always critical in the higher damages tier for everyone, there is no RNG involved with this attack.
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Our Dragoon mate is an amazing player and he always do a proper job during raids, but get constantly punished by the game itself for playing a job he like... This is unfair and sad.

This is the whole point of this thread : having a dragoon in your team for fcob will make fights harder to deal with, it will slow down your raid progression, your dragoon will need special-extra cares and sometimes it won't even be enough, this is unfair for dragoons. :

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Originally Posted by Alomeigne

I totally agree with what has been said here. My group tried all of once to mitigate the Nerve Cloud without a tank lb and I got hit for 6760 damage...with adlo, stoneskin, fairy etc up. If a class has to babied through a mechanic, it should at least have some payoff...but as of right now, especially in T11, there is no payoff at all for playing dragoon :(. (Well, except for how fun I find it, but fun does not push down raid progression :/.)

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Originally Posted by Kyros

It is VERY noticeable in FCoB. The thing is that it seems SE balances Physical attacks around healers, so an unavoidable mechanic needs to be at least survivable by mages who have the least Physical defense. However, the team balances Magic attacks around other DPS's, so they only need be survivable by MNK/NIN/BRD, leaving DRG in the cold.

It's got to the point where we have to take extra precautions to let our DRG live. We crafted him some i90 VIT-melded accesories (Comlpetly uneeded by the other DPS classes, and further impairs his DPS), we have the BLM use Apocatastasis on him for any big hit, and he is perma-stoneskin'd for T10 in case he gets Prey (Since Adlo alone won't save him). We don't take this precautions with anyone else, unless they are weakened.

To me, it makes no sense that a class with positionals, closest to the danger and wearing a heavier suit of armor than everyone else takes more damage. Specially considering DRG shared a lot of TANK items at lower levels. If anything, their magic def should at least equal MNK/NIN/BRD.

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Thanks for your feedbacks Alomeigne and Kyros /bow.

Critical balance issue for dragoons while respecting the traditional trinity "2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps" and the future healer job released in 3.0 :

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Originally Posted by Ryel

No single job should require an "optimal" party setup to survive on their own merit, whether the party contains 2 SCH, 2 WHM, or a solitary healer should have ZERO effect on the Dragoon's native survivability especially considering this is NOT the case for any other job.

Add to this the fact that there are only 2 Healing jobs available in the game currently, it's not even that uncommon to see groups running 2 SCH or 2 WHM if for no other reason than the lack of an available alternative.

Dragoon should not be penalized for a party attempting to be flexible in it's composition.

As the example given, if the next healer released doesn't have a form of Magic Damage mitigation is Dragoon only going to be viable in parties that specifically have a White Mage as a healer? That condition alone would be enough to bar them from almost all endgame content in favor of another DPS (remember no other DPS has this problem currently) if a party cannot meet that criteria.

Lets not act like this isn't an issue.

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Also...

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In that video its actually your whms fault that the drg died.

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Originally Posted by Vinyl

They don't actually seem to have a white mage. I just see two scholars. Dragoon in our static never gets one shotted there with proper stoneskin buff.

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You re not getting the point, it's not about a fault matter, it's about the fact that if our dragoon was playing monk or any other dps, he would have lived. It's again the same problem on T12, if our dragoon isn't shielded for a whitefire : he can get one shot, especially as double sch, other people won't need a shield and survives.

Also²...
Since some people seems to doubt if "blood for blood" was used or not before Nerve cloud :

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Originally Posted by Ryans

They can claim the Dragoon didn't have blood for blood, but unless they are actually certain he didn't then none of this matters. I don't know about you, but I don't think highly enough of humanity as to tell the truth when it doesn't suit their desires. I would just like more definitive proof of whether or not the Dragoon did have blood for blood or not.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Like other people have said was blood for blood up? I never seen anyone get hit for that much then again we stoneskin everyone. There isn't enough before the video to see if he used it or not.

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We made another video to prove that "blood for blood" wasn't used. (when our dragoon got raised, he used it right away to continue dps, which prove what we told you :p) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbDqGo4mmQs
I'm not here to fight with someone arguments because there is no need to :p the fact is clear enough : if our dragoon was a mnk or a ninja or anything else he wouldn't get one shot like that.
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Note : Please, if you agree that dragoon need a boost of their magic defense, thumb-up this thread :) It would be sad to see more people quitting dragoon's job just to get rid of an unfair and unbalanced problem.

The Lost City of Ampdapor. "Idiot! Halfwit!"

Honestly though, the magic/physical defense ratio seems like a unneeded archaic design at this point of the game. Example from WoW, most people had enough defense (or HP) that they'd take relatively the same amount of damage from unavoidable AoEs, either that or it was static damage reduced only by resistance. It was actually on the tank's (as well as warriors) that'd have a miserable magic defense, but they had enough hp to take magic hits.

Independently if it's a casual or a hardcore raid, a player shouldn't be pushed away from a class he likes because he is constantly punished by mechanics of which he has no control over. it might be the best players ever, dodge every single aoe and keep a high dps... but since there's no way for them to increase their magic resistance they will be in a perpetual disadvantage in comparison to others.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The Lost City of Ampdapor. "Idiot! Halfwit!"

Honestly though, the magic/physical defense ratio seems like a unneeded archaic design at this point of the game. Example from WoW, most people had enough defense (or HP) that they'd take relatively the same amount of damage from unavoidable AoEs, either that or it was static damage reduced only by resistance. It was actually on the tank's (as well as warriors) that'd have a miserable magic defense, but they had enough hp to take magic hits.

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Nothing against having stats like magic defence and evasion, it's part of what make classes diverse and interesting. Normalization of attributes would only turn the game bland. The problem with Dragoons is that they have lass magic resistance than a crafter!

I honestly never understood why Dragoon has lower magic defense... I mean... It's a Job that is supposed to specialize in fighting magical fire breathing lizards, right? If anything I'd expect them to have the highest magic defense...

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Originally Posted by Edenholt

Nothing against having stats like magic defence and evasion, it's part of what make classes diverse and interesting. Normalization of attributes would only turn the game bland. The problem with Dragoons is that they have lass magic resistance than a crafter!

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And crafting gear uses the same defense budgeting as caster gear. You're essentially saying a caster has more magic defense than a DRG.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

And crafting gear uses the same defense budgeting as caster gear. You're essentially saying a caster has more magic defense than a DRG.

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A Caster/Crafter in NQ i55 has better Magic Defense than a Dragoon in i130.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

A Caster/Crafter in NQ i55 has better Magic Defense than a Dragoon in i130.

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And a DRG in NQ i55 has more physical defense than a caster in i130.

But really, I'm just nitpicking here; but simply saying "DRG such a low magic defense, a caster has more than him wearing low level gear!" doesn't depict why it's a bad element of the game and needs to be changed, because the opposite is also true (a caster has such a low physical defense, a DRG has more than him wearing low level gear)

I've always seen DRG as a bit of an odd duck myself. The justification for why they don't get a lot of things is that "they can take physical hits better"
But really what good is that for a non-tank class? Sure there are plenty of physical AOEs out there, but i've noticed the lion's share of them tend to be point blank.
I'm normally not one for homogenizing stat layouts, but as far as defenses go, if they're getting slaughtered by things other DPS classes can shrug off (made even worse by the fact that the i110 MNK and NIN gear technically gives nice meaty boosts to physical mitigation by giving both STR and DEX, thus making the discrepancy even larger at that particular tier) there's something wrong.
And as someone point out...they're warriors specifically trained to fight DRAGONS. Big scaly monsters with MAGIC BREATH. Yet they take magical hits worse than CHEFS. It's like sending firefighters to fight fires in fur suits!

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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Think of it this way: why is there threads about DRG poor magic DEF, while there is none on Caster's physical DEF? As far as I know casters never worry about physical attacks unless they are doing solo content. Bosses/adds are tanked by the tanks and they can simply cast away. No raid wide physical AOE attacks that can hurt them. But there is an abundance of Magic AoE in end game that hurts the DRG a lot.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

But really, I'm just nitpicking here; but simply saying "DRG such a low magic defense, a caster has more than him wearing low level gear!" doesn't depict why it's a bad element of the game and needs to be changed, because the opposite is also true (a caster has such a low physical defense, a DRG has more than him wearing low level gear)

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the trouble is more of 80% of the attack from end game are magical attack, leading to a unfair disadvantage for the dragoon. most of the physical attack are the auto attack from the boss, generally you will get magical damage for the AoE and stuff like this. this difference of magical defense have no sense, since if the dragoon are killer of dragon. this last one will use magical type damage like breath. why them defense will be weak against them enemy main weapon?