Frontlines and Wolf`s Den - A flawed desing doomed to fail.

Yes.

Since there is a good bunch of people correcting. I have to say sorry for my bad grammar, english is not my native language so, sorry for that desing that should be design. xD

Another topic about PvP and the upcoming Frontlines.

As it stands now, PvP is done by a small portion of the playerbase because really good reasons that are not simple "i dont like PvP" but are desing desicions made by the Dev Team that just disencourage people to participate from it. Here im talking about the mindbreaking grind of PvP ranks and Wolf Mark, which is the main reason for most players to not even try PvP cause, simply, no one has 500 hours of free (that if you are doing it "legal", fixed matches still take +100 hours) time to dedicate to a PvP activity, it simply puts you behind in all other content if you want to get a rank high enough to use the ilvl100 PvP set and to get the Wolf Marks needed for it.

And now, Frontlines come with another kind of bad thought desing that is made, one will think, for lore reasons but in fact, it just hinders the new system, because having so many restrictions in the process of changing GC makes it hard for people to organize and participate of the event as a group of players, instead, literally forces players to do Solo queue into a 24 vs 24 vs 24 battle arena... What is the sense of this desing choice? As stands now, the only justification for this, a very dishonest one by the way, would be: "We don`t want for ilvl100 pvp players (which already endured a hellish grind) to take advantage of their gear playing together so we made it like this for them to be forced to queue alone"

Well, that is because in the first place, Dev Team made the PvP gear and ranks to be such a long grind that simply disencouraged most of the people (this outside the point if you like PvP or not) and now you are going to punish those who endured it?!

PvP is not played because grind is excesive for a PvP activity, which only makes the grind longer for players who are not into fixed matches and btw, makes fixed matches totally an alternative, in fact, almost a necessity if you want that PvP Rank and Wolf Marks.

Frontlines will not be played because players have to face too many restrictions and even lose their PvP rank in somesituations if you want to play, you know, an MMORPG, with another people. Im crazy ok? i think playing with other people and having fun with them is crucial in an MMORPG, but the hell i will know.

After the long criticism, a few direction changes will solve this 2 problems that as stands right now, are just desing issues which are killing PvP and will, in 7 days, kill Fronlines which, right as Wolf`s Den, will be born dead.

PvP Changes.

Reduce the Rank and Wolf Mark grind. By a lot. The ilvl100, warwolf and direwolf gear sets should be something to obtain during 2 weeks at max, not 3 months of grinding. This will encourage people to participate because they will have access to the PvP gear quickly, so they will feel rewarded and will balance the PvP since people will be actually geared for it, even more, it will make fixed matched dissapear... Because, honestly, we want to have fun, fixed matches were just born because of the grind is insane and there is not enough people playing the thing just because of that.

GC Changes.

Make the PvP rank universal no matter what GC you run for. Yes, i know about the archivements being independent for each GC, but make it so, for example, the highest GC rank is the one which counts for equiping gear, so, you can keep using your ilvl100 or Direwolf sets in Frontlines even if you change of GC to play with your friends and at the same time, you still have to play PvP to rise the ranks on other GC to get the archivements and titles.

Besides this, make GC changes more easy going, 30 days cooldown is ridiculous, even the 15 days just because the Frontlines coming is bad and just damages the whole point of playing together, make it 7 days, just like if it was a weekly trial, so groups of players can change their alliance each week depending on how they feel and are not punished by it.

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Remember, we players, want to have fun. If you force into us long grinds, force us to lose our progress (PvP Rank) or not be able to play with our archivements (PvP gear) in order to play with our friends (the whole point of an MMORPG) then we are not having fun. Is in fact, a bit of an insult to people who has been paying for your game and expecting big things from you Dev Team.

Fronlines can be saved, Wolf`s Den can be resurrected. But Dev Team needs to reconsider their desing choices here. One thing is for sure. Players are not having fun in PvP and players will not have fun playing Fronlines.


Some answers.

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Originally Posted by KenzieLynch

I'm hyped for Frontlines, and i'm primarily a solo player so I am glad you can que solo for it without being disadvantaged :-)

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He is putting a good point. Solo players will have not a single disadvantage with how the system is going to be implemented. Thats a good point in favor of SE actual position and desing choice. Now, from this kind of good post one can discuss seriously, with well thought ideas being properly presented. Not just pure white knighting because SE is the only good and does good to me.

And over this point, i could only argue. Solo players are a minority, even if we don`t know the exact numbers, we know most players play raid content, party content and group content in general. So, while being more than fair for a solo player, lets say, for a FC of 50 members which are spread across all 3 diferent GCs and now have to change and some of them maybe lose progress, hours of game, just to play with their friends inside their FC this new content... That is terrible.

To put an example for PvE players that doesnt know much of PvP: Is something like this. Everytime a player in SBCoB wants to help their FC mates in the BCoB he loses all his tracked progress through the SBCoB, cant return to the SBCoB for 30 days and will not be able to use his High Allagan gear set in the BCoB. Sounds fun? fair? practical? logic? player friendly?

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Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

Did everyone forget morale won't work in Frontlines? So PvP gear isn't needed. x.X

Yeah, the Wolves' Den is bad tho, but I think it'll just be forgotten. No job restrictions on Frontlines should make the queues so fast when you don't have to wait for tanks or healers, plus the rewards of soldiery, mythology and alexandrites might make people actually do it. Sure it's also sad you can't fight with friends affiliated with another GC than you but I can live with it. I'll fight against them, instead. :) It's still fun, yes?

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Oh we know. But still isn`t fair to see your PvP rank (which is a grind as long as your gear to get) reseted because you are forced to change GC. Besides, the post has 2 main purposes:

1.- Adress how restrictive and damaging is the Frontlines accesibility for PvP players and organized parties.
2.- Adress how long and booring is the Wolf`s Den grind and how it killed PvP, forcing players to do fixed matches and disencouraging players to participate from it.

The link between both issues is the PvP Rank.

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Originally Posted by RegnumMagik

So you people are telling me, people who just so happen picked the same GC as their friends are able to play together. And for people who picked the different GC are being isolated to solo queue is a great idea?

And before you tell me I can change to any GC, I don't want to lose my PVP ranks. The grind is already ridiculously long, and I don't want to lose my progress. Should I be punished because I play the game legitly? Oh yes let's do that.

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Both things are mayor issues coming along this desing decission.

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Originally Posted by IveraIvalice

Again there are valid points in your argument that I agree with such as exp and wolf marks take too long to get and the grind turns people off. However I don't believe GCs should be changeable as easily as you want it to be. To me it's a FF game first and an mmo second, and I think that decisions you make should carry some weight. If they are lowering it from 30 days then cool but 7 days seems too little to me.

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You know, having a long lockout will not be a problem if for example. Instead of just having 1 PvP rank active (for example right now, Twin Adder) i just have the 3 GC PvP ranks ALWAYS activated. For example.

Maelstrom: PvP Rank lv.4
Twin Adder: PvP Rank lv.40
Immortal Flames: PvP Rank lv.10

Lets say those are my PvP ranks and im, because for Frontlines all my friends accorded to play for the Maelstrom, in the Maelstrom. Ok, i will deal with the 30 or 15 days lockout, but let me use my PvP gear of lv 40 rank. I already reached it, i already got the marks, i already endured 300 hours of gameplay. Ok, i give it, 15 days lockout, why not. But not being able to use my PvP gear during those 15 days till i rise my PvP rank for the Maelstrom to 40 is... Ridiculous to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Alexander_Dragonfang, the content is already planned and ready for shipment, they will not make any changes now and developers hardly ever take feedback before the players experience content, this thread is pointless.

Note that I do agree with your point, fully, but devs won't agree until content is here and 100% sure about that.

Devs value metrics a lot higher than player opinion, they operate under "players don't know what they want" (and they are right about that), that's why when you don't like a content you shouldn't stop at just voicing your opinion, you should avoid doing it as well, their metrics will tell them when/if there's something wrong.

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Thank you for your support! And i completely agree. Making developers understand and change their form to see is almost an impossible thing to do, but i keep my faith in that "almost" one day, will favor the players. And yes, sincerely i would love to be wrong, but since Frontlines will probably die after all PvE players get their mount, and by not having PvP players participating of said content, developers will notice their mistake and change some things arround. After all they made 1.0 into 2.0. They can mend their mistakes completely, is just a bit discouraging to see the lack of foresight they have. Punishing PvP players for playing PvP content... One wonders, what they are expecting to happen?


Players should not be punished for chosing to play with friends nor to play certain content. Thats whats happening right now and thats what the whole issue is.

I think this is a bit one-sided. The difference between regular pvp and frontline is the fact that it's not just about killing the other team. There are obstacles like monsters and a point system to keep it from being a KILL THAT GUY type of event. I personally hate wolves den because I'm a healer and I have no fun being targeted or slept the whole time simply because my job is a burden on the other team. That to me isn't fun.

However, the idea of fighting monsters and defending a flag with not just me to be a target but maybe other healers that can back me up and stuff like that sounds appealing. I can finally enjoy going against others without worrying about being dead the whole time.

Secondly, it hasn't even come out yet. It's just bringing it down before you even give it a chance to go and it's a bit disheartening. I think instead of entering something so negatively you should wait and see. It's whatever though, I'll be sure to have fun doing it for you :)

P.S. The armor in my opinion is not even that important. While morale is nice, I've joined teams where we've beaten geared pvp people with regular gear. It's how you play the game. This game isn't heavily dependent on gear anyways. Usually skill plays a far bigger part.

Let's judge Frontlines when we know next to nothing about it!

I were longing for a PvP like this, that require tactics and is not a bloody arena only.

If a group have topped 'old' PvP and want make the 'new' PvP together, they just have to agree to same FC all together. You can change FC so I do not see anything bad. Looks like you wanted all the good things without pay anything in exchange.

Until today on my new FC mates, asking me what FC is 'better', I simply reply to choose what they like the most. After the patch, I will just add that our FC will go battle at the given GC side we choose as FC. Me too will have to switch FC, but don't make a big deal from it.

Is the word you're looking for..."design"? I think in general, Final Fantasy has never been PvP and that's why a lot of people don't care for it. I'd rather see PvE content pushed over PvP.

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Originally Posted by Princess_Rosilee

I think this is a bit one-sided. The difference between regular pvp and frontline is the fact that it's not just about killing the other team. There are obstacles like monsters and a point system to keep it from being a KILL THAT GUY type of event. I personally hate wolves den because I'm a healer and I have no fun being targeted or slept the whole time simply because my job is a burden on the other team. That to me isn't fun.

However, the idea of fighting monsters and defending a flag with not just me to be atarget but maybe other healers that can back me up and stuff like that sounds appealing. I can finally enjoy going against others without worrying about being dead the whole time.

Secondly, it hasn't even come out yet. It's just bringing it down before you even give it a chance to go and it's a bit disheartening. I think instead of entering something so negatively you should wait and see. It's whatever though, I'll be sure to have fun doing it for you :)

P.S. The armor in my opinion is not even that important. While morale is nice, I've joined teams where we've beaten geared pvp people with regular gear. It's how you play the game. This game isn't heavily dependent on gear anyways. Usually skill plays a far bigger part.

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But PvP Rank is still important for players, and those who have endured the PvP grind are now forced to not use those archivements in order to play with their friends. We are not talking about how Frontlines is diferent from Wolf`s Den. We are talking about the accesibility to Frontlines and the lack of polish of the whole PvP system (including both Wolf`s Den and Frontlines) and how changing from each GC is way too punishing for players who are high in the PvP Ranks.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Let's judge Frontlines when we know next to nothing about it!

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We know that chaging from GC will be needed to play with friends and we know that moving from GC resets your PvP rank and makes it impossible to use your PvP gear -Even if they stated that morale will not come into play- But in order to play Frontlines i have to forget about my PvP rank forever?

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

I were longing for a PvP like this, that require tactics and is not a bloody arena only.

If a group have topped 'old' PvP and want make the 'new' PvP together, they just have to agree to same FC all together. You can change FC so I do not see anything bad. Looks like you wanted all the good things without pay anything in exchange.

Until today on my new FC mates, asking me what FC is 'better', I simply reply to choose what they like the most. After the patch, I will just add that our FC will go battle at the given GC side we choose as FC. Me too will have to switch FC, but don't make a big deal from it.

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The idea of forced content like this is the problem.

You all missing the point here, we i am not judging the new Frontlines on how they are (we dont know yet) but we know what the requirements to participate are and thare is the problem, and the PvP grind is also another problem, and both create such a synergy in which, a rank 40 pvp player will be forced to change GC and lose +500 hours of grind in order to play with friends or to solo queue for a group event which is supposed to be fun and enjoyable for you and your friends.

The restrictions of GC and the grind of PvP are the problems here. If they are not adressed, Frontlines will face the same fate Wolf`s Den did.

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Originally Posted by KahnyaRedx

Is the word you're looking for..."design"? I think in general, Final Fantasy has never been PvP and that's why a lot of people don't care for it. I'd rather see PvE content pushed over PvP.

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Content being "not part of the trademark" is not an excuse for a badly desinged system. Final Fantasy games are never been good at exploration, that doesnt justify the slap in the face that Sightseeing is and the overall Exploration experience this game has which is one of the weakest points in PvE content. This is an MMORPG first, and a Final Fantasy later. If they are going to put PvP systems, they have to do it right or not doing it at all. Lazy work over weekends is not enough. And seriously, the problem with PvP is just about changing some numbers...

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

I were longing for a PvP like this, that require tactics and is not a bloody arena only.

If a group have topped 'old' PvP and want make the 'new' PvP together, they just have to agree to same FC all together. You can change FC so I do not see anything bad. Looks like you wanted all the good things without pay anything in exchange.

Until today on my new FC mates, asking me what FC is 'better', I simply reply to choose what they like the most. After the patch, I will just add that our FC will go battle at the given GC side we choose as FC. Me too will have to switch FC, but don't make a big deal from it.

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I hope you meant Grand Company (GC) and not FC. I was sure I read it was restricted to GC not FC.

You're not 'forced' to do anything. Frontlines is a completely separate entity from wolves' den. You can still pvp there and keep your ranking as desired. I don't see a bother with the gc thing. It's a good way to meet new people and refreshing. It also keeps fcs from basically getting their most hardcore players and destroying others by forming one team and not giving anyone else a chance.

It's square enix's attempt at 'balance'.

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Originally Posted by Princess_Rosilee

You're not 'forced' to do anything. Frontlines is a completely separate entity from wolves' den. You can still pvp there and keep your ranking as desired. I don't see a bother with the gc thing. It's a good way to meet new people and refreshing. It also keeps fcs from basically getting their most hardcore players and destroying others by forming one team and not giving anyone else a chance.

It's square enix's attempt at 'balance'.

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Yes you are forced. If you want to play with friends you have to change to your friends GCs or viceversa. Not to mention you can do this only once 30 days which is excesive, but also, it resets your PvP rank. If you dont do that, well, solo queue for a group event which is supposed to be played with your friends and your FC mates.

You just dont understand what the concept of forced content is. Of course you are not forced to do anything, that includes playing the game and paying the subs. But what if you do...? And you want to do it with your friends...? Yes, what if you want to play a MMORPG with your friends?!!?! Is acceptable a desing choice that demands you to lose hours of content and progress or be stuck for a month in group of players just to play with your friends? If you say yes, the discussion ends here because simply white knighting.

How hard is:

Reduce time needed to change GC to 7 days.
Being able to use high rank PvP gear independent of your GC PvP rank. (By having 3 diferent PvP ranks at the same time and taking in count the highest one to use gear)
Reduce the ammount of grind needed for PvP Experience and Wolfs Marks.

First of all, do some research. They have already stated they will be reducing the cooldown for leaving and rejoining a gc. Secondly, you can still play with your friends. Even if in different GCs you can still que. They won't be in your party but playing against them is just as fun. The new front lines offers completely new gear and the old gear was only pretty good for morale which is absolutely useless in frontliness so I don't see why wearing it matters either way. You can still use it in wolves den but starting over seems the best way to balance it
I don't consider logic to be white knighting sir. And you're drowning yourself in a glass of water. You're making it sound as if your only option is change gcs or gtfo. You can stay in your gc, have your friends que and still play with them. Or you can change and wait. Just like we have to wait to get coil gear every week, just how we have to grind to 50. You're "give it to me" now mentality is rather amusing.