Gender locked race?

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Originally Posted by NahuNa

Misandry is not real.

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........Oh.

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Originally Posted by NahuNa

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........

Actually, the hatred of male viera IS misogyny, because it's the hatred of feminine features on a man. The man isn't the problem - the problem is this man resembles women too much. Misandry is not real.

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If ever there was a shining beacon of somebody not arguing in good faith this would likely be it.

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Originally Posted by Esteed

If ever there was a shining beacon of somebody not arguing in good faith this would likely be it.

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Oh, that's because I'm not arguing, I'm telling. The hatred of feminine men is rooted in the hatred of women. Very basic stuff.

Regardless of what you think you know saying things like misandry does not exist does very little to show that you're worth taking serious.

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Originally Posted by Esteed

Regardless of what you think you know saying things like misandry does not exist does very little to show that you're worth taking serious.

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Misandry doesn't exist by virtue of the term involving a position of power. It's ingrained into a lot of those terms. A person of color can be bigoted towards white people in America, but it makes them bigoted, not racist - they don't have a position of racial power over the person they're bigoted towards. That's why Misandry is a concept you're not really going to run into often, if at all.

i‘m just not impressed with their reasoning.. come on se, lore? you can do better than that...
just keep fighting guys, with enough people interested in it, they may change their mind in the future

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Originally Posted by Esteed

Regardless of what you think you know saying things like misandry does not exist does very little to show that you're worth taking serious.

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Please call me when men are forbidden from inheriting property.

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Originally Posted by Fukuro

i‘m just not impressed with their reasoning.. come on se, lore? you can do better than that...
just keep fighting guys, with enough people interested in it, they may change their mind in the future

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yep, always customers have the power. Also they lied to us, they said no more gender lock in 2.0, and not they add 2 gender locked races. They lied to us.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Misandry doesn't exist by virtue of the term involving a position of power. It's ingrained into a lot of those terms. A person of color can be bigoted towards white people in America, but it makes them bigoted, not racist - they don't have a position of racial power over the person they're bigoted towards. That's why Misandry is a concept you're not really going to run into often, if at all.

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This is an entirely American viewpoint, and a misunderstanding of racism.
In America, race issues are black versus white, but those aren't the only races.
Go to europe, and you'll find that a lot of historical race issues are between different enthicities that would all be considered "white".

To claim that "white people cant be racist" IS racism.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

This is an entirely American viewpoint

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It was, I'm sorry I didn't make that clear enough. But within that context, the point more than holds.

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To claim that "white people cant be racist" IS racism.

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Now where did I make that claim? :) If you meant more 'white people can't be racists against" or something then within the European context I'd say they're not even White, as that in and of itself is an American context, so the debate is all over the place already.

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Originally Posted by NahuNa

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........

Actually, the hatred of male viera IS misogyny, because it's the hatred of feminine features on a man. The man isn't the problem - the problem is this man resembles women too much. Misandry is not real.

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No its misandry, because the term is about the sex not the features. If someone hates those kinds of features on a Male that's stereotyping. Not hating them cause they are Male, but because they are not the "ideal" male.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Misandry doesn't exist by virtue of the term involving a position of power. It's ingrained into a lot of those terms. A person of color can be bigoted towards white people in America, but it makes them bigoted, not racist - they don't have a position of racial power over the person they're bigoted towards. That's why Misandry is a concept you're not really going to run into often, if at all.

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I wont say you are "wrong" but that doesn't change the fact that misandry is the proper term to use. It's like saying "reverse-racism" which does not exist, because true "reverse-racism" would be hating your own race, not another one.

Bit I am sure we can all agree we don't want this to turn us against eachother and start a gender/race war, irl at least. Let's just make SE aware that what they did was wrong, especially after they "fixed" it last time.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

This is an entirely American viewpoint, and a misunderstanding of racism.
In America, race issues are black versus white, but those aren't the only races.
Go to europe, and you'll find that a lot of historical race issues are between different enthicities that would all be considered "white".

To claim that "white people cant be racist" IS racism.

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I mean, Europe literally invented "white" and "black" but go off? I really don't understand what you're trying to say here cuz Europe still hates black people pretty uniformly, even if they also bicker amongst each other about which version of "white" is better.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

No its misandry, because the term is about the sex not the features. If someone hates those kinds of features on a Male that's stereotyping. Not hating them cause they are Male, but because they are not the "ideal" male.
I wont say you are "wrong" but that doesn't change the fact that misandry is the proper term to use. It's like saying "reverse-racism" which does not exist, because true "reverse-racism" would be hating your own race, not another one.

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And you misunderstand that it's still misogyny because the hatred is towards the feminine. Those terms never refer to the "sex," they refer to what is being hated (womanhood and femininity) even if it's the features of a man. As for the reverse racism, you lost me.

Just gonna repost what I said in a different thread, because I wanna put in my support in the bigger threads as well obviously:

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I'm disappointed, sad, confused.

As a player who was actually hyped for 1.0 to launch, and then disappointed when my machine couldn't really play it. Then hyped about ARR launch and only took breaks due to hospitalisation. Hyped for both HW and even SB and again for ShB, though getting less and less...
And also as a mom rasing 2 children in a non-genderconforming-way because I do not believe stereotyping genders or what they should be looking like or can or can not do is something constructive.
Choices like these are just painfull, it does not show trust in playerbase, trust in people deciding for themselfs and all just because they don't really feel it.
We have Roe woman and Miqo males and it's good that we do, the locking made people unhappy and just because something does not appeal to you personally does not mean it can't appeal to another.
Same as I don't agree with genderlocking some gear or the way a lot of gear looks different on males vs females........

I hardly post and there's a reason to because I just try to not get too worked up about stuff. But this...
Sad lala is sad.

Oh and yes it's just a game, I agree, but can we also agree we spend money on this game, time inside this game, we 'live' in this fantasy world just like we live outside of it.

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how did this gender locked race thread turned in to race debate?! lol

As for the topic at hand.

Most likely, they've been looking at different suggestions over the years, and the two biggest fanservice race suggestions were Viera and Ronso.
They wanted to do both, but only had plans for one more race.
They can't just keep adding races, the biggest resource drain with new races is remodelling all of the existing equipment, and all of the future equipment requiring an additional variant, it's an exponentially increasing workload.

Could there have been less backlash if they just went with Viera and never even mentioned anything remotely like Ronso? Probably.
That doesn't mean this decision was made out of spite against male Viera fans.

Not mine, its from twitter!

amazing hrothgar female artwork
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2UYbeFV...pg&name=medium

link to the tweet:
https://twitter.com/moogiedaisuki/st...830694912?s=21

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

As for the topic at hand.

Most likely, they've been looking at different suggestions over the years, and the two biggest fanservice race suggestions were Viera and Ronso.
They wanted to do both, but only had plans for one more race.
They can't just keep adding races, the biggest resource drain with new races is remodelling all of the existing equipment, and all of the future equipment requiring an additional variant, it's an exponentially increasing workload.

Could there have been less backlash if they just went with Viera and never even mentioned anything remotely like Ronso? Probably.
That doesn't mean this decision was made out of spite against male Viera fans.

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I think the thing that's just the most baffling is that there's literal, calculable proof that male Viera would still be an incredibly more popular choice. They also know that people hate gender-locks. And as far as the established lore, the players had made their peace with the idea of playable characters being more humanoid and the Furries being beast tribes.

I do believe they truly thought this was the best choice... but it feels very much like the dog trying to get the bone from his reflection in the water. They wanted the two things instead of picking one and pushing it to its full potential, and so you ended up with lots and LOTS of disappointed people (and let's not ignore how it's rehashing the obnoxious trope of Pwetty Girl and Buff Male Beast).

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

As for the topic at hand.

Most likely, they've been looking at different suggestions over the years, and the two biggest fanservice race suggestions were Viera and Ronso.
They wanted to do both, but only had plans for one more race.
They can't just keep adding races, the biggest resource drain with new races is remodelling all of the existing equipment, and all of the future equipment requiring an additional variant, it's an exponentially increasing workload.

Could there have been less backlash if they just went with Viera and never even mentioned anything remotely like Ronso? Probably.
That doesn't mean this decision was made out of spite against male Viera fans.

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If they didn’t have a problem with male Vieras a Ronso-like race would have never been considered to begin with. Hrothgar right now exists only because they have a problem with male Viera being “too cute”. There is an interview quote, which I don’t have right now but that has been posted many times in these threads (if anyone would be so kind to post it again), specifically stating that if they were to add Viera they would look to make a different male-only race.

Oh look another race being played by 5% of the community.
Are you gonna call that success as well Yoshi?
Let me guess, that was a expected result?

Edit: dont get me wrong. Im happy for people that like those Roega-- Hrothgar, but I can tell we will see them as rare as Roe and especially Roe's will go extinct now.
Genderlocking and using lore as cheap excus,good joke. We got so many crossovers and will get many more, those can make an appearance like YorHa but "male Viera just dont exist to us"?

I am so glad Hrothgar is now playable as a beast-like playable character. I am looking forward to fantasia a character with Hrothgar race. Thank you, Yoshi-P for surprising me! :D

Where did you even get the idea male viera would have been cute? They would have been nothing more than elezen #2 like the females.
The reason they didn't want to add them was dumb though, for lore reason but then they add a race that's even more lore breaking, actual beastmen, I'd rather get the the fat smug miqo'tes than them.

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Originally Posted by NahuNa

I mean, Europe literally invented "white" and "black" but go off? I really don't understand what you're trying to say here cuz Europe still hates black people pretty uniformly, even if they also bicker amongst each other about which version of "white" is better.



And you misunderstand that it's still misogyny because the hatred is towards the feminine. Those terms never refer to the "sex," they refer to what is being hated (womanhood and femininity) even if it's the features of a man. As for the reverse racism, you lost me.

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Andr and gyny the two modifiers of the terms misandry and misogyny literally mean man and woman in ancient Greek. That's why I'm saying it's misandry, cause its specifically against male viera, not feminine males, otherwise Male miqo'te would get flack as well. The two terms are about someone's sex, not their gender. Women and femininity and men and masculinity aren't mutually exclusive.

As for the reverse-racism, I'll give an example that hits closer to home, lol. A reverse-harem. In anime if we refer to a show as a harem, we think a male protagonist with many female suitors, and if someone says reverse-harem, we think female protagonist with many male suitors. But both are technically just harems. A reverse-harem would be a male protagonist with male suitors or a female protagonist with female suitors. To reverse something, is to point it in the opposite direction. And if you are male the usual direction it towards female, but if you reverse that, it goes back towards your own sex, ie male. That's why reverse-(somethings) don't truly exist, at least not how we think of them anyway.

Think of those gay VNs that have been popping up lately. Those are reverse-harems.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

Oh look another race being played by 5% of the community.
Are you gonna call that success as well Yoshi?

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That's fair enough, but are you really convinced more than 5% of the community would be Male Viera after a couple of weeks?

I am sure with fan demand they will add them later on. But the people who out right harrass the devs and screech to anyone on these forums are never going to be happy no matter what happens. I welcome any new content to the game. https://imgur.com/a/DGfWUFP

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Originally Posted by Colino

That's fair enough, but are you really convinced more than 5% of the community would be Male Viera after a couple of weeks?

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Based on how violently people petitioned for male bunny ears and tails to be put in the gold saucer and how many 'bunny men' I have in parties....we had a good chance lol.

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Originally Posted by Colino

That's fair enough, but are you really convinced more than 5% of the community would be Male Viera after a couple of weeks?

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If male viera were something not really wanted, and only would be played for 5% of the community, the forum wouldn't be so full of rage for "No male viera" like now. Just look at how popular are the male Miqo'te right now. I'm sure would be the same with male viera.

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Originally Posted by BroodingFicus

Based on how violently people petitioned for male bunny ears and tails to be put in the gold saucer and how many 'bunny men' I have in parties....we had a good chance lol.

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dude are you not jumping from forum to forum telling players to unsub because YOU and a handful of others didn't get the gender for a race you wanted? If you want to unsub over a cosmetic ascetic to a game then go ahead.

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Originally Posted by Colino

That's fair enough, but are you really convinced more than 5% of the community would be Male Viera after a couple of weeks?

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Trust me, the male Miqote race would of shifted to those. You would see way more male Viera than male Miqote. The audience is there, more than for male Hrothgar.

So much race and gender talk in here. XD

Anyway, the solution to the problem is...

Develop and implement MALE Viera and FEMALE Hrothgar options.

It's going to take awhile for devs to complete this task... but we, the fans, will continue to push for it! lol

May our suggestions of unlocking gender... begin! ^_^

To those stating that only like 5% will play them and the male bunny suit debate. It's not so much us doing it, as us having the choice to do it. I havent bought any of the bunny suit, yet, but my huslala bought it and likes dancing in it a lot.

I would've preferred this to have been a base of the Highlanders instead of the Roe, but it's fine I guess. They look a bit derpy to me. I won't be playing them. On the plus side, we will have a new "least played race" under roe.

I really do hope they will reconsider this and add in male viera, and female hrothgar. I was quite let down by the reveal.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

I was already pretty much certain that this would be the outcome all the way back during Paris fanfest when they were so clearly avoidant about mentioning male Viera, but I wanted to wait until it was officially confirmed to make my statement about it.

Obviously, this is a massive and frustrating disappointment. I had no personal stake in male Viera, I wasn't interested in playing one. However, I'm not so blind that I cannot recognize when something is an obviously good decision. When you run a business, selling a product, the feedback you receive from customers about that product is a valuable asset. When customers overwhelmingly give you direct, earnest, specific and voluminous feedback about specific changes they want to see, you should be thanking the gods for your luck. An obvious choice, a clear path on which to direct your work, that you know for certain will please your customers, drawing praise and attention to your product and business.

Square Enix did not do that.

In a game that secured its entire existence and success on the concept of correcting past mistakes and humbly listening to your customers, it feels like nothing less than a total betrayal for them to fly in the face of such overwhelming feedback. The customers and community, in this instance, were patently ignored. There's no other way to slice it, the fans were totally ignored. Square knew what the fans wanted, but ignored them. For what reason? Nothing but the whims and caprice of the producer and director? This decision appeases (effectively) no one, and does nothing but attract criticism and bad press to your game. Yet they went ahead and did it anyway.

It is so frustrating that my only route for feedback is this insignificant, impotent little post that will simply be buried and ignored under thousands of posts just like it. What I really want to do is grab Yoshida by the shoulders and shake vigorously while yelling "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?" Can you actually give satisfying reasoning for your business decision, or was it purely a flight of fancy? To not only deny the choice that your users are asking for, but to go with something that has never been introduced, mentioned, or even hinted at, in a style (big beefy dudes) that both historical polls and in-game data suggest is not at all popular or desired?

Based on previous interviews on the topic of Viera, this whole thing reeks of something Yoshida did on his own, against the advice of his co-workers, which only makes it all the more baffling. After building the game this far, carried by the good will of the users and an honest intention to correct the mistakes of the past and deliver something that people want to play, it's nothing short of shocking and depressing to see this team repeat the mistakes of 1.0.

If Yoshida and the dev team have any respect left for their players, they must offer the following: A formal apology for introducing genderlocked races against the will and wishes of the community, and a promise that the missing genders will be introduced and implemented into the game before 6.0. Obviously they will not do this, so I can only hope instead that a large number of people cancel their subscriptions and their Shadowbringers preorders. I hope that Yoshida is made to see the rewards that pride and arrogance earn him.

To addend: This is bigger than just some genderlocked races. It's a decision that shows without a doubt that this dev team does not care, and will not listen. It shatters the good will and confidence of the users they had built up over so many years. Even if it's not something that bothers you personally, your faith in the game should be shaken. Yesterday it was limited jobs, today it's genderlocked races. Tomorrow, who knows? Certainly nothing good.

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I agree 100%! It was clear that people were asking for Viera, both female and male. I get the feeling that choosing to not have male Viera was really Matsuno and Yoshida's choice. Because of their own personal hangups about how males should be designed, we didn't get male Viera.

If there is one plus that can be taken from this - despite the disappointment - it is that those who wanted a more beastly race, got it.

But, that does not mean what they have done is right. Personally I think at some point they should address the outcry. If the Lore is the problem, they have the power to sort it by bringing about a change that would force the custom to change, would force the Viera to leave the woods. I hope this is their intention, because lets face it, the Rak Tika is burning in the trailer. If that doesn't displace them, and force the males to leave, nothing will.

But it in itself is also an issue. If they are being attacked, where are the males who are supposed to be the protectors? My hope is that we see at least some sign of their existence and that perhaps following the events of ShB MSQ - within the patch cycle they add the other genders.

But above all, given the level of disappointment that has been shown i think they should address this and give some indication on whether we can expect to see the other genders added or not in the future.

End of the day, this game is about playing a role and stepping into the shoes and appearance of an avatar of our choosing. Limiting that basic function unnecessarily is a mistake on their part, but a bigger mistake will be pretending the backlash isn't real. They risk losing credibility and the confidence of a community that not so long ago was ready to walk away from the game.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

Sure looks that way, and it fits the lore they've set up.

https://i.imgur.com/A9CQXfu.png

Really unfortunate choice on SE's part. We're supposed to be past this.

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With the First around the corner they can kind of tweak the lore though. I mean, lala's are a beast tribe and you're trying to restore darkness instead of light. They should switch it up in the first so that females are rare instead of males.

Having 2 new gender-locked races is fine.
Having 2 new non-gender-locked races would've been better.

Since the Au'ra debacle I don't trust SQEX to implement a true male/female equivalency between genders anyway.
So yeah, instead of miqo'te with bunny hears or elezens not with scales but with fur, we get Hrothgar. Seems to me like the better alternative.

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Originally Posted by Edzntroeg

So yeah, instead of miqo'te with bunny hears or elezens not with scales but with fur, we get Hrothgar. Seems to me like the better alternative.

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hrothgar are just roegadyns with low quality animal heads and tails

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Originally Posted by Tenil

hrothgar are just roegadyns with low quality animal heads and tails

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Different basic idle stance, facial expressions, and walking/running animation too (and I didn't get the feeling they were sliding while running at least).

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Originally Posted by Edzntroeg

Different basic idle stance, facial expressions, and walking/running animation too (and I didn't get the feeling they were sliding while running at least).

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So same applies to male Viera? Comparing existing races to new ones will always outplay each other.
What matters right now is not Hrothgar or female Viera, but genderlocks being considered and lore being used as excuse.
Its obvious the dev team (even if not all of them but the majority) disliked the concept of male Viera.
Female Hrothgar is just an issue they caused by themselves now. Those both missing parts leave a bitter taste.

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Originally Posted by Tenil

hrothgar are just roegadyns with low quality animal heads and tails

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Male viera are just elezen with rabbit ears.