I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

I’m so confused, is colt47 arguing that shields and mitigation should be the realm of the tanks and DPS and that all 4 healers should be a form of regen healer that focuses more on WOW’s old style of whack a mole healing

If I’m wrong I’m still confused, if I’m right I don’t think I’ve ever disagreed with a healer suggestion more on this thread

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Originally Posted by Mortex

I argue it’s more the opposite. Casual content is not designed for massive consistent dmg spikes the party takes so reducing the dmg and even having a good amount of regen tools makes shield healer in my eyes in casual content way stronger. And if a fight is a mitigation fiesta with ok downtime sgn + sch just becomes way too good (looking at top)

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There's an argument for pure healers being the weaker of the two as well. Going back to my first post it is a situation where one of the two is going to be better then the other depending on the scenario and what they do with healing potency. If the healing potency goes up and pure healers have a stronger potency already, the extra potency is wasted on them and it just buffs the shield healer. Or if the potency is enough in casual content for shield healers and the potency is too high for casual content on pure healers, then shield healers would be better.

What I kind of want is dps and tanks to have temporary HP abilities in order to buy time for healers to heal them, rather than being able to self heal as they do now, or at least have a limit that makes more sense for the content. It opens up more space to adjust fights without having to use strict body checks and "mit or die" moments.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m so confused, is colt47 arguing that shields and mitigation should be the realm of the tanks and DPS and that all 4 healers should be a form of regen healer that focuses more on WOW’s old style of whack a mole healing

If I’m wrong I’m still confused, if I’m right I don’t think I’ve ever disagreed with a healer suggestion more on this thread

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Not at all that. What I'm kind of arguing towards is that in order for healers to have the freedom to have more interesting damage rotations the healing has to be something that is predictable and not as intense, where there is wiggle room for someone to finish a combo but still get off a heal. To do that requires healing and damage at the high end to be lower and to have less gimmicky moments (Like having a boss just do multiple chains of high damaging attacks that require several AOE recovery spells in a row, thus forcing the need for something like lily bell, which never gets used in 99% of the content).

IDontPetLalas isn't quite getting what I'm saying because they are going "I want to change healer and have it have this, with everything else I'm experiencing now in the game world being the same".

I'm saying that in order to change healer to have a DPS rotation, it goes beyond just a job skill issue it is an entire system issue. It's why I don't think we're going to see this kind of thing in dawn trail.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Not at all that. What I'm kind of arguing towards is that in order for healers to have the freedom to have more interesting damage rotations the healing has to be something that is predictable and not as intense, where there is wiggle room for someone to finish a combo but still get off a heal. To do that requires healing and damage at the high end to be lower and to have less gimmicky moments (Like having a boss just do multiple chains of high damaging attacks that require several AOE recovery spells in a row, thus forcing the need for something like lily bell, which never gets used in 99% of the content).

IDontPetLalas isn't quite getting what I'm saying because they are going "I want to change healer and have it have this, with everything else I'm experiencing now in the game world being the same".

I'm saying that in order to change healer to have a DPS rotation, it goes beyond just a job skill issue it is an entire system issue. It's why I don't think we're going to see this kind of thing in dawn trail.

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I just think that rigid rotations to the point that the current high end design wouldn’t work isn’t the type of the rotation healers should be going for

Imagine a healer with DNC’s core rotation, if you need to stop doing DPS for a second to heal your procs just sit there and wait for you to go back to doing DPS, same as if it was modelled off something like BRD or RDM

I don’t really think healers need the level of rigidity that forces a design change to encounters to accomodate healers that won’t heal in a particular section because they are on a rigid part of a potential rotation

However I do 100% agree that square needs to stop inventing skills (like lilybell and panhaima) then makinh up mechanics to justify said skills

Healer DPS kits just need flexibility so they're not "locked in" to just damage or just healing and can swap when it's needed most. Even 1-2-3 combos can avoid being interrupted by heals if that ever got implemented into a healers kit, the problem with 1-2-3 is purely around gameplay depth rather than rigidity. Rigidity would be more like old PLD where you have that consistent 60s loop that must be kept at all times and every GCD deviation further moves you out of the burst window. Having simple gauges or procs that consistently break fillers is enough for healers to work with and (hopefully) won't lead to highly rigid rotations.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Not at all that. What I'm kind of arguing towards is that in order for healers to have the freedom to have more interesting damage rotations the healing has to be something that is predictable and not as intense, where there is wiggle room for someone to finish a combo but still get off a heal. To do that requires healing and damage at the high end to be lower and to have less gimmicky moments (Like having a boss just do multiple chains of high damaging attacks that require several AOE recovery spells in a row, thus forcing the need for something like lily bell, which never gets used in 99% of the content).

IDontPetLalas isn't quite getting what I'm saying because they are going "I want to change healer and have it have this, with everything else I'm experiencing now in the game world being the same".

I'm saying that in order to change healer to have a DPS rotation, it goes beyond just a job skill issue it is an entire system issue. It's why I don't think we're going to see this kind of thing in dawn trail.

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On the contrary, you either misquoted me (i.e. what I last posted) or just don't understand what I posted.

In addition, you're asking for healing to have "damage rotations" when we don't necessarily have to have "rotations", and we have discussed in some depth. Which in turn means that at at multiple levels of content, even at the more difficult levels of content, it would not necessitate decreasing the amount of healing required.

Which is why these changes should be seen in DT, and in fact are years overdue.

Edit: just saw TheDustyOne's post - agreed.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Not at all that. What I'm kind of arguing towards is that in order for healers to have the freedom to have more interesting damage rotations the healing has to be something that is predictable and not as intense, where there is wiggle room for someone to finish a combo but still get off a heal.

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Someone please tell me why it always comes down to combos. Why? No one is asking for 1-2-3 combos. Make it make sense.

And in any case, is it even physically possible to make damage even more predictable? You literally know the exact moment in every fight when each mechanic will occur, what mechanics can be avoided, which ones cannot, and even how many boss auto-attacks occur between each mechanic. How can that possibly get more predictable than literal spreadsheet encounter design that maps out each and every instance of damage like a Disney World Tour Guide pointing out every theme park attraction.

Colt does have a point that the tanks and DPS having mitigation tools does compound the problem with the people who want the healer requirements raised even a little. The moment I pop Bloodwhetting as a WAR, I am not dying for those 6 seconds except for one shots and Doom-like mechs. DPS this late in the expansion with 15 more ilvls on their relic weapons are really killing 4 man enemies so quick to the point where that Bloodwhetting accounts for maybe a quarter to half the healing needed. Even if we changed the healers to be like what I said with WoW healers having a weaker base healing kit with strong 2 - 10 minute cooldowns, the WAR popping Bloodwhetting and the PLD using the Requiescat spell combo still translates to the heals not really being needed for maybe 10 - 15 seconds every 30 seconds on average. This is assuming the tank staggers in the standard cooldowns like Rampart in between the Bloodwhetting.

As for the argument with rigid rotations, tanks have tech applied to their combos to prevent the combo from resetting while using actions deemed to have higher priority. We also have charge systems tacked on with cooldown timers and these can be used to reduce the rigid parts of rotations. Although we have to be careful not to give too many charges lest the enemies get fried and sizzled with everyone using a lot of 3+ nukes at the beginning. This is likely why the WHM lily system was experimented on as a combat warm-up system starting at zero.

No one is asking for 1-2-3 combos.

No one is asking for 1-2-3 combos.

No one is asking for 1-2-3 combos.

No one is asking for 1-2-3 combos.

No one is asking for 1-2-3 combos.

No one is asking for 1-2-3 combos.

No one is asking for 1-2-3 combos.

No one is asking for 1-2-3 combos.

If you meant me, I wasn't trying to say we should only have a filler combo system. Last I mentioned it in other discussions, the combo would have been more of a cooldown added in to what is there. The GNB Gnashing Fang button if you will. Of course, it would need more than just that to be a fun rotation.