How do we feel about tank damage right now?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Arguing to give them damage buffs also doesn't do anything but address feelings. From an objective standpoint, the numbers ultimately mean nothing so long as the tanks are close enough to each other to not render one invalid, and so long as the tanks are in a suitable zone (Hint: They are). Speed Runners are excellent at abusing the game - But they are not what we should try and balance the game around.

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Power levels also entail opportunity costs which in turn entail task assignment and difficulty. Drop one's contribution rate too far and the party-wide opportunity cost of having them cheese mechanics (at uptime loss) becomes a non-issue and player skill on that job/role becomes increasingly nil in terms of contribution to the party. Once over X applicable/general skill level, with someone of lower skill to take one's place, one would be doing a disservice to their party by remaining in the role that contributes less between tiers (i.e. the party would do more, on the whole, by having the more skilled player swap off, say, tank, and the less skilled player take the tank's place).

I agree with most of your points on the whole, but we should seek to do more than just balance a role against/within itself with only gimmicks to oblige that role's use with no more broadly connected sense of economy or skill-reward.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Power levels also entail opportunity costs which in turn entail task assignment and difficulty. Drop one's contribution rate too far and the party-wide opportunity cost of having them cheese mechanics (at uptime loss) becomes a non-issue and player skill on that job/role becomes increasingly nil in terms of contribution to the party. Once over X applicable/general skill level, with someone of lower skill to take one's place, one would be doing a disservice to their party by remaining in the role that contributes less between tiers (i.e. the party would do more, on the whole, by having the more skilled player swap off, say, tank, and the less skilled player take the tank's place).

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We are nowhere near that level, nor are the concerns of individual parties / players and their decisions on what roles to play within our breadth of discussion.

The discussion is "Do tanks need more?"

The answer is no, but as I've said at basically every interval this thread comes back up, a small corrective adjustment up is fine. At the time of creation, that was about 2%. At the current state, this can be 3-5% depending on how much of a boost the Ranged get, if any, in 5.3.

It also won't mean anything in the end, but that's basically been the outcome of every flavor of "Muh Accessories" thread that came about.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

We are nowhere near that level, nor are the concerns of individual parties / players and their decisions on what roles to play within our breadth of discussion.

The discussion is "Do tanks need more?"

The answer is no, but as I've said at basically every interval this thread comes back up, a small corrective adjustment up is fine. At the time of creation, that was about 2%. At the current state, this can be 3-5% depending on how much of a boost the Ranged get, if any, in 5.3.

It also won't mean anything in the end, but that's basically been the outcome of every flavor of "Muh Accessories" thread that came about.

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Again, I agree on the whole. At present, we're not in that situation that demands any significant increases to output, even if it may quite nearly demand more engaging gameplay.

My point was only the goal. Specifically, I don't believe that "the numbers ultimately mean nothing so long as the tanks are close enough to each other to not render one invalid". That's a start, and absolutely necessary, of course, but I don't find balancing a role among only itself as a sufficient goal. There should be a sense of knowing what X role costs you in terms of other roles, and there being an apparent balance between the roles, with one ultimately ending up at or very near to 2/4/2 because of that balance rather than gimmicks alone.

I realize I'm using the term "gimmick" here loosely. I probably also extend that definition further than most, including even vulnerability mechanics to oblige swaps in place of simply needing to rotate CDs, and the like. I essentially consider something a gimmick when it acts as a composition check rather than an output check. If something outright requires a role more so than it requires a given amount of eHP, HPS, or DPS (even if that's normally limited to a tank, healer, or dps, respectively), it leans into "gimmick" territory for me.

When I'm playing a role -- any role -- I like to feel like a toolkit that ultimately forms my responsibilities, not a classification that a bunch of parts are later added to by obligation alone. If I'm a "Tank", it should be because I have so much capacity and gameplay revolving around tanking, rather than just being told I'm a Tank, getting a goodie bag that says "Tank" on it with a handful of mitigation skills to pop at preset times. When design aims merely to balance roles unto themselves, where things are specifically "tank" skills rather than "mitigation", etc., with no sense of shared currency between each role, that latter, shallow feeling inevitably starts to appear and make itself increasingly obvious.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

When I'm playing a role -- any role -- I like to feel like a toolkit that ultimately forms my responsibilities, not a classification that a bunch of parts are later through into by obligation alone. If I'm a "Tank", it should be because I have so much capacity and gameplay revolving around tanking, rather than just being told I'm a Tank, getting a goodie bag that says "Tank" on it with a handful of mitigation skills to pop at preset times. When design aims merely to balance roles unto themselves, where things are specifically "tank" skills rather than "mitigation", etc., with no sense of shared currency between each role, that latter, shallow feeling inevitably starts to appear and make itself increasingly obvious. [/INDENT][/INDENT]

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I actually want to touch on this as I do agree with it. I don't feel like I'm a tank anymore. I feel like I'm a lower end DPS given 4 'don't die' buttons, and adding more damage is only going to make that feeling more apparent to me and after a certain point, other people.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Arguing to give them damage buffs also doesn't do anything but address feelings. From an objective standpoint, the numbers ultimately mean nothing so long as the tanks are close enough to each other to not render one invalid, and so long as the tanks are in a suitable zone (Hint: They are). Speed Runners are excellent at abusing the game - But they are not what we should try and balance the game around.

The DPS and other healers (Not White Mage) brought those buffs. This expansion took most of those buffs and folded them back into the classes that brought them. In short - Coming at this from an angle of "Damage Contribution" shows that most of you don't understand what contribution means. Whoever brings that Damage is the one who contributed. You can go back to any logs pre-shadowbringers and work this out to figure out where each class landed on "Contribution".

Hint: The Tanks, Black Mage, and White Mage dip the most. The astro, ninja, Dragoon, and a few others increase the most. "Damage contribution" is not the angle you should be coming from.

Tanks are disproportionately affected by this as the weakened buffs will go to other DPS. The DPS whom they were close to (Bard, Red Mage, Ninja) got their buffs folded back into them. It really doesn't take much to understand how this affects rainbow standings.

Gear priority is a player issue. If you disagree with how your group handles loot, talk to them. The moment your group can kill Shiva, the distribution does not matter.

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This is a terrible argument. Just because all X type of role are within close proximity in damage to one another does not make them 'balanced'. Its the same argument you would have to make for Physical ranged DPS this tier being substantially lower than all other DPS to the point teams are starting to run double caster over a physical ranged DPS. It makes the role entirely flawed and underperforming, that is where tanks sit. You can keep the current balance of tanks within DPS of each other, but that doesn't mean that tanks should not be more important to the overall group wide damage performance so that the argument can be made for gear progression to be equal between healers and tanks. Right now, its a waist/unoptimal to allow a tank to get gear until DPS and Healers have gotten theri gear. Tanks dont' gain enough damage from new gear, and more HP doesn't matter with how the game is currently balanced around tankbusters/incoming damage. So why would any group that cares a little about optimal play even consider allowing tanks to gear up at this point? Just clear the final fight and everyone get a mount. You are done then. Just have the tanks at crafted gear why don't we?

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Just clear the final fight and everyone get a mount. You are done then. Just have the tanks at crafted gear why don't we?

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8 weeks of clearing puts everyone in their gear. Why does the order matter?

Further - The scholar and Astrologian pull ahead by virtue of their raid buffs - AKA not damage they are personally dealing. Which means the only healer you would want to gear before the tanks from a 'damage' perspective is white mage.

Gear priority is a player issue. if you don't like how your group does it, take it up with them.

The Physical Ranged DPS compete with the other DPS roles.

The tanks compete with no one. They do not compete with healers, they do not compete with the DPS. They compete only with each other. Meme compositions and speedrunning are their own area, and should remain separate.

It doesn't really matter what retrospective claim the devs, or you for that matter, come up with to explain away a bad decision. They could have assigned extra dps to all jobs containing the letter 'm'. Hey look, that fits too. If you don't offer people a reason to want to tank, they won't tank.

And right back at you: why don't you wait eight weeks for gear, then, if it doesn't matter so much? Let's aim for a scenario where tanks get gear over dps then, if you're indifferent to it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It doesn't really matter what retrospective claim the devs, or you for that matter, come up with to explain away a bad decision. They could have assigned extra dps to all jobs containing the letter 'm'. Hey look, that fits too. If you don't offer people a reason to want to tank, they won't tank.

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As long as you have a trinity system people will never want to tank or heal. That is a fact and has been like that in all games that feature the trinity system. Unless you go full hybrid where every class is a damage dealer, tanks and healers will never be popular.
In trinity games tanks and healers have always relied more in personal preference rather than incentives. People that want to play tanks and healers will play tanks and healers. The only way you can make people who don't like these kind of class play tanks and healers is to make them overpowered/broken and attract the kind of people who always play the best class.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

And right back at you: why don't you wait eight weeks for gear, then, if it doesn't matter so much? Let's aim for a scenario where tanks get gear over dps then, if you're indifferent to it.

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Gearing priority is completely irrelevant to tank damage. As long as your primary requirement in order to clear bosses is damage gear will always go to damage dealers first. Unless they change the tanks to do more damage than damage dealers or make a fight require an X amount of VIT or tenacity from the tank in order to clear, tanks will never get priority over damage dealers in gear. The problem with gear is the fact that is drops a coffer rather than a specific piece. As long as it drops a coffer, tanks and healers will get their gear last in the current raiding climate.

The main reason why dps jobs are popular is because there is a low amount of team responsibility. You can jump in and play it like a single player game.

The quality that attracts a specific personality type to tanks or healers is that very same sense of team responsibility. It's the idea that you can make an impact on your teammates to help them succeed. And be thanked for it.

At the moment, the only way that you can help your teammates succeed is by providing a raid dps buff. Anything else (mitigation, enmity, keeping your team alive) is an expectation. Failure to do so will irritate your team, but doing so successfully will never earn you a word of thanks.

If you don't give tanks and healers a way to feel needed and rewarded, the very personality types that would seek out those roles ordinarily will lose interest in playing them. Everyone is focused on where the sub money is, but these are the people you actually need to be winning over. Because when your queues dry up, your new players dry up.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Everyone is focused on where the sub money is, but these are the people you actually need to be winning over. Because when your queues dry up, your new players dry up.

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Unless you spend all your time and effort implementing a Trust system instead of fixing Tanks and Healers...

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Oh wait!