What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I don't think it is entirely wrong.
The WoL is still a bit of a blank slate. We go along with everything the Scions do but rarely is our motivation for it explored. It might look like we're fighting for what's right and morally good because that's usually the outcome of our actions, but why do we do it?

I actually quite liked the Zenos fight at the end for that reason. It felt like he was asking me, the player, the adventurer, why I was doing what I was doing, not the hero that everyone forces us to be.

The game might call me the saviour of the world, the warrior of light, but only because that is literally what the game's story forces you to be, the is no other option.

But I as my own character am actually a lot closer to Zenos than the game makes us out to be, I am in it for the challenge, the thrill, the hunt.

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Agreed. I actually rather liked how that played out. He was right about us, when he identified/referred to our '"adventurer" roots and recognised that we were heroes through circumstance and a need/desire to do the right thing, rather than choice. For me, the only answer to his question that wasn't dishonest was "That, I can't deny" when he tells us he knows what we are.

At the edge of the universe, all other threats extinguished and with a clear mind, she can finally be a little selfish and admit, with a smirk, that she does love the challenge of a good fight - and when he does fight us he truly doesn't hold anything back. He pours everything he is into that fight, and so do we.

Yeah, of course Zenos was right about the WoL. That was his entire character design from the start. The seeker of challenges who wept because there were none or none left.

He's the settings most powerful NPC (sundered anyway). We are its most powerful PC. He's fated to lose, we're fated to win. And he wants that fight with us anyway, because he finds thrill in a struggle, as so few things bring him a struggle.

He is every raider who does the MSQ as a means to an end to reach the Savage and Ultimate content. Every challenge runner. Every solo artist.

And if he's truly dead, he's almost a commentary on the game's trajectory. It went from having some of the most brutal content without clear, cookie cutter telegraphs in every fight that sought and prided itself for its difficulty, and was embraced for it... to the opposite of that, to the rejection of that.

And if they bring him back, I wonder what they'll use him to say next. That the game will regain some spice? That the gameplay is what's most important in a game?

That the WoL's motive for helping the Scions doesn't really matter, even if it's on the darker side of humanity's instincts?

We are predators, after all. Humans hunt.

Zenos and the DRK quests are the most compelling stuff in this game, and they fly in the face of the BS we got during the ending parts of 6.0. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the MSQ. But holy crap did it feel like someone on the writing team had a hate-boner for our best frenemy when you look at a lot of the dialog options. Asides from the "I can't deny that" line, none of the dialogue options conveyed how I felt about him. The best you can be is neutral towards Zenos. Meanwhile the even greater threats get nothing but sympathy and forgiveness and a comfy little spot in the key art at the end of the credits? Bugger that nonsense. I can't stand ancient Elon and feel bad for his pet bird.
Honestly the only thing that redeemed Endwalkers story for me was the fact that the optional side quests in Elpis and Pandemonium felt like they were calling out the main scenario writers on their BS.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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Thanks for the link. Just filled it out myself!

Imo they need to start killing off scions again, it made the story better. Now they keep plot armour saving them constantly, it makes the story lose it's teeth, there's never any real threat because they will be saved by some random crap each and every time. Think about when Papalymo sacrificed himself, or Minfilia, these death drove the story and upped the stakes as you knew members of the team could actually die.

To Op's original post though, it's not a plot hole that Venat didn't try and get the ancients to use dynamis, it's explained before the big reveal that the ancients are incapable of dynamis manipulation because they are made up almost 100% of aether.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That would imply that the WOL is the same as Zenos which the game goes to great pains to show he is not (something that garlemald actually does well) that the old saying “we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions” is flawed. The WOL IS better than Zenos and has actually reasons to try to fight for what’s right, even if they still leave an ocean of blood in their wake

The entire game is trying to say that the “we are the same” answer you can give to Zenos is wrong

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Could you not look at it as the only times when it wouldn't be a social faux pas to pal around with zenos are when the wol and he are alone at the edge of reality and alone in a romantic rooftop rendezvous? I'm sure the scions wouldn't be as eager to provide things to fight after a social misstep like that.

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Originally Posted by WeebPolice

Hmm, citizen? Was the poorly improvised reason from YoshiP during the live letter not to anyone's liking?




Sun and moon light your way.

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Man that live letter was painful to watch. The director of a game struggling to answer lore questions about their own game doesn't leave a good impression.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Yeah, of course Zenos was right about the WoL. That was his entire character design from the start. The seeker of challenges who wept because there were none or none left.

He's the settings most powerful NPC (sundered anyway). We are its most powerful PC. He's fated to lose, we're fated to win. And he wants that fight with us anyway, because he finds thrill in a struggle, as so few things bring him a struggle.

He is every raider who does the MSQ as a means to an end to reach the Savage and Ultimate content. Every challenge runner. Every solo artist.

And if he's truly dead, he's almost a commentary on the game's trajectory. It went from having some of the most brutal content without clear, cookie cutter telegraphs in every fight that sought and prided itself for its difficulty, and was embraced for it... to the opposite of that, to the rejection of that.

And if they bring him back, I wonder what they'll use him to say next. That the game will regain some spice? That the gameplay is what's most important in a game?

That the WoL's motive for helping the Scions doesn't really matter, even if it's on the darker side of humanity's instincts?

We are predators, after all. Humans hunt.

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I think that's giving the writers way too much credit. You can draw those parallels about hardcore raiders and XIV's game design with Zenos, but I doubt they made them intentional. They just thought giving the WoL a forced rival would be "cool". No way the people who brought us depression bird and a smile better suits a hero thought any deeper than that.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

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I can believe that none of the unsundered Ascians would have come up with the plan, but out of all the sundered Ascians they had, including Daniel himself, would have thought to mention the old "Grab and teleport" trick? Or at least try it until then? Although we don't really see many sundered ascians on the main story.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I think that's giving the writers way too much credit. You can draw those parallels about hardcore raiders and XIV's game design with Zenos, but I doubt they made them intentional. They just thought giving the WoL a forced rival would be "cool". No way the people who brought us depression bird and a smile better suits a hero thought any deeper than that.

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Well it was different writers back in Stormblood for the MSQ, wasn't it? He's not an Ishikawa original, is he?

But yeah, I probably do give them too much credit. I'm just one of those folks that thinks Zenos gets a bum rep.

I enjoy that this thread is still going strong. Wonder if we'll get a dawntrail version too.