Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

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Originally Posted by Iglol

Speaking as one of the actual best K/D/A WARs, you sure you're one of those?

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To answer your question, I'm grateful you included the original quote, because it allows everyone to see that I never claimed to be "one of the best." What I said was I "typically have the best K/D/A of any WAR on the field." You want "typically" quantified? Greater than 50%. That isn't saying much, honestly, but I think it does indicate a degree of competence. Which was pertinent in my OP because, once again, I was told I should "git gud" when that is precisely what I am trying to do.

It's very hard for me to know how I stack up. I sometimes see WAR with stats I've never achieved. They may be exceptional players. They may be in a premade.

I will happily admit, however, that you are more skilled than me. Happy? Have a bikkit.

But let's try to keep this on topic? Specifically, if and why FL sucks rather than whether I suck?

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Originally Posted by aini

mrowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww *purrs*

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Petition to implement a neutering program.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

To answer your question, I'm grateful you included the original quote, because it allows everyone to see that I never claimed to be "one of the best." What I said was I "typically have the best K/D/A of any WAR on the field." You want "typically" quantified? Greater than 50%. That isn't saying much, honestly, but I think it does indicate a degree of competence. Which was pertinent in my OP because, once again, I was told I should "git gud" when that is precisely what I am trying to do.

It's very hard for me to know how I stack up. I sometimes see WAR with stats I've never achieved. They may be exceptional players. They may be in a premade.

I will happily admit, however, that you are more skilled than me. Happy? Have a bikkit.

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Then you should know that you can actually stop many of those stacks running a single DRK on WAR, however I don't see you directly counter-playing them and just complaining instead. I'm really not sure what the point of this is since a lot of what you've said boils down to you not getting to play the way you want to, and what looks like a desire to punish others who play differently out of spite. Just as you get to play how you want, so do others and if they choose to play in a manner that increases both their own and their team's chances of winning, then more power to them. Either way at the end of the day, the rest of your team and especially your opponents all get a say, and what your opponents want to do can and will affect how you can play because thats just how pvp in any game works.

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Originally Posted by Iglol

Then you should know that you can actually stop many of those stacks running a single DRK on WAR, however I don't see you directly counter-playing them and just complaining instead. I'm really not sure what the point of this is since a lot of what you've said boils down to you not getting to play the way you want to, and what looks like a desire to punish others who play differently out of spite. Just as you get to play how you want, so do others and if they choose to play in a manner that increases both their own and their team's chances of winning, then more power to them. Either way at the end of the day, the rest of your team and especially your opponents all get a say, and what your opponents want to do can and will affect how you can play because thats just how pvp in any game works.

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How am I punishing others who want to play differently? You don't see me directly counter-playing them? When do you see me at all?

Currently I do not get to play how I want when I'm stuck on the same team as a premade, but I make do. I understand that is the nature of group content. I try my best to help my team win. I got landed with Senpai the other day and dutifully turned in a 9/0/36, following the same boring deathball.

And I agree completely that people should get to play how they want within the current rule set. My point is 70% premade win-rates are not healthy for the mode, thus I think changes to the rule set are in order. I think premades may actually function reasonably if we had the tier separation I've suggested, but they seem strangely reluctant to support the proposal.

FWIW I know I am disliked by many in the Discord Mafia, and that is fine, but I also enjoy many fruitful discussions via DM with players, many of whom regularly command. There are such players who want to understand my position and explain theirs to me, and I have learned a lot from such exchanges. Just this week I had a wide-ranging chat on everything from our opinions on Olivia's guide, the older one written by Togane, strategic exploits on Seal Rock, and non-standard/situational WAR burst rotations.

I keep getting this accusation that I am complaining because I don't know how to counter a DRK+ stack. I know I go on a lot and am critical of the current state of the game, but please castigate me for what I actually say, not what you'd like to believe I say/think/feel/want.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

How am I punishing others who want to play differently? You don't see me directly counter-playing them? When do you see me at all?

Currently I do not get to play how I want when I'm stuck on the same team as a premade, but I make do. I understand that is the nature of group content. I try my best to help my team win. I got landed with Senpai the other day and dutifully turned in a 9/0/36, following the same boring deathball.

And I agree completely that people should get to play how they want within the current rule set. My point is 70% premade win-rates are not healthy for the mode, thus I think changes to the rule set are in order. I think premades may actually function reasonably if we had the tier separation I've suggested, but they seem strangely reluctant to support the proposal.

FWIW I know I am disliked by many in the Discord Mafia, and that is fine, but I also enjoy many fruitful discussions via DM with players, many of whom regularly command. There are such players who want to understand my position and explain theirs to me, and I have learned a lot from such exchanges. Just this week I had a wide-ranging chat on everything from our opinions on Olivia's guide, the older one written by Togane, strategic exploits on Seal Rock, and non-standard/situational WAR burst rotations.

I keep getting this accusation that I am complaining because I don't know how to counter a DRK+ stack. I know I go on a lot and am critical of the current state of the game, but please castigate me for what I actually say, not what you'd like to believe I say/think/feel/want.

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I say you want to punish it because of stances you've taken when you've supported things such as removing grouping, giving groups 25% rewards, you name it. "70% win rate premades" are counterable with 1-2 people and the issue really is a skill one more than anything. The biggest issue with the mode is that there are always a large number of players doing next to nothing, the bare minimum for a daily bonus or for collecting pvp currencies and progress. They are the ones that make 4 man stacks viable because they provide a constant stream of easy targets to farm and don't really help their team accomplish much of anything in the grand scheme of things, that is the crux of the issue right there.

People say you don't know how to counter DRK stacks because thats exactly what you say the issue is, and people who know how to fight it don't think of it as the biggest issue of the mode. And what even is this Discord Mafia you're going on about? Who the heck is acting like an organized crime network?

Surprised they don't understand your position. You don't like playing with premades on your team. It's mentioned every other post :/

Still... premade win rates are a result of the other 68 people not caring about winning. As I've said before, this isn't a problem on JP because the average player understands basic concepts like: don't get sucked in by a Dark, press guard, attack with the team. The average player on NA dies to the same suction and burst 10 times a match and can't fathom a possible soultuon... not that they care to when they're watching Netflix on their other screen.

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Originally Posted by Iglol

I say you want to punish it because of stances you've taken when you've supported things such as removing grouping, giving groups 25% rewards, you name it. "70% win rate premades" are counterable with 1-2 people and the issue really is a skill one more than anything. The biggest issue with the mode is that there are always a large number of players doing next to nothing, the bare minimum for a daily bonus or for collecting pvp currencies and progress. They are the ones that make 4 man stacks viable because they provide a constant stream of easy targets to farm and don't really help their team accomplish much of anything in the grand scheme of things, that is the crux of the issue right there.

People say you don't know how to counter DRK stacks because thats exactly what you say the issue is, and people who know how to fight it don't think of it as the biggest issue of the mode. And what even is this Discord Mafia you're going on about? Who the heck is acting like an organized crime network?

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I keep emphasizing playing with not against DRK stacks is what is so tedious. And since in practice you never actually see these 1-2 FL savants countering them (that's you and who else, btw?), we get dull, lopsided matches.

That said, I agree the massively-inflated premade win-rates are largely a skill issue. A typical NA match dominated by rouletters is a feeding ground for such a stack. Hence the idea of placing the more-skilled players in the same matches.

My suggestions evolve as I receive more information. I pay attention to what others say and assess it. That's how productive discussions work. In response I get this steady stream of first-time posters telling what my real problem is, and what I need to understand, and how I should try and improve (like that never occurred to me), along with a bunch of weirdos making cat noises.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Surprised they don't understand your position. You don't like playing with premades on your team. It's mentioned every other post :/

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Lol! Ahem, fair. I'd shutty but people keep telling me it's cos I suck.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Still... premade win rates are a result of the other 68 people not caring about winning. As I've said before, this isn't a problem on JP because the average player understands basic concepts like: don't get sucked in by a Dark, press guard, attack with the team. The average player on NA dies to the same suction and burst 10 times a match and can't fathom a possible soultuon... not that they care to when they're watching Netflix on their other screen.

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Yeah, shockingly I mostly agree with you on this one. But as you recently noted, the situation has actually regressed. And with everyone leveling for the next several months, it's not going to get any better IMO. Unless some form of tiering is introduced.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I keep emphasizing playing with not against DRK stacks is what is so tedious. And since in practice you never actually see these 1-2 FL savants countering them (that's you and who else, btw?), we get dull, lopsided matches.

That said, I agree the massively-inflated premade win-rates are largely a skill issue. A typical NA match dominated by rouletters is a feeding ground for such a stack. Hence the idea of placing the more-skilled players in the same matches.

My suggestions evolve as I receive more information. I pay attention to what others say and assess it. That's how productive discussions work. In response I get this steady stream of first-time posters telling what my real problem is, and what I need to understand, and how I should try and improve (like that never occurred to me), along with a bunch of weirdos making cat noises.

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So if your issue is playing with premades, what of the fact that a team bursting and moving together is good for them in the current system, so a team having someone to help lead and signal works to their advantage? Are you also against a solo commander leading the team then? Its effectively about the same thing if people in the alliance coordinate with them. What of a premade not doing calls and just marking a DRK and going with it, or a random grouping of good players who do the same on their own and function close to a stack? Whats actually wrong with people doing some ad-hoc coordination? Also its not some FL savant thing to be able to do an interception counterpull, its just a skill increasingly lost and neglected with the current regular players and new commanders.

So your solution is to create a tiering system in a casual game mode? The high tier matches will never fill for dailies, and the low tier queues will be packed with people never wanting to learn. A tiering system would exacerbate the very core issue plaguing both PVE and PVP by lowering the bar and setting no expectations for most people. Hell, are you going to introduce tiering into Rival Wings as well? The same lopsided matches occur there if you get a strong group and/or commander on one team. Why not address the root of the issue instead and promote better play as a whole?

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Originally Posted by Iglol

So if your issue is playing with premades, what of the fact that a team bursting and moving together is good for them in the current system, so a team having someone to help lead and signal works to their advantage? Are you also against a solo commander leading the team then? Its effectively about the same thing if people in the alliance coordinate with them. What of a premade not doing calls and just marking a DRK and going with it, or a random grouping of good players who do the same on their own and function close to a stack? Whats actually wrong with people doing some ad-hoc coordination? Also its not some FL savant thing to be able to do an interception counterpull, its just a skill increasingly lost and neglected with the current regular players and new commanders.

So your solution is to create a tiering system in a casual game mode? The high tier matches will never fill for dailies, and the low tier queues will be packed with people never wanting to learn. A tiering system would exacerbate the very core issue plaguing both PVE and PVP by lowering the bar and setting no expectations for most people. Hell, are you going to introduce tiering into Rival Wings as well? The same lopsided matches occur there if you get a strong group and/or commander on one team. Why not address the root of the issue instead and promote better play as a whole?

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Make a training video so that this neglected skill can be resurrected. You'll be raising the skill level of interested players and doing a great public service.

You tweak the tier boundaries to ensure all fill. (RW is off-topic. Focus, Namazu, c'mon man.)

My suggestion to "address the root of the issue" is to greatly reduce XP and other rewards. It proved as popular as a rattlesnake in a lucky dip. Do you have a better solution? Answering "Olivia's guide" will cause a loud buzzer to go off and a flashing red X. You correctly note the bulk of the people do not want to learn. Such people do not read guides.