Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

I certainly have no idea what you're talking about since the above list has zero connection to what I've been discussing.

If you want the simplest tl;dr

I dislike playing with you and people who adopt your playstyle.

A point I made weeks ago, the reasons for which I've explained extensively.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I certainly have no idea what you're talking about since the above list has zero connection to what I've been discussing.

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I presume the list was in response to your "Why else would your win-rate rocket" question. They're listing the factors (including a premade party - No.7) which they feel contributed to their increase in win-rate.


On a different note, the lack of any kind of progressive discussion in this thread is almost laughable, with the same points being repeated endlessly. Ultimately, it is a 'personal profit and efficiency vs cost to wider community' discussion, but one at the opposite end of scale to leeches.


Leeches solely value their time-reward ratio. They'll tend to go through the very basic motions of the game, but won't put in any effort to push for a win because their only interest is the reward at the end. This comes at a cost to the wider community, as they are now playing alongside a deadweight burden who will contribute little to nothing to the game. The slight comfort, though, is that these players will be present in every team and their existence doesn't directly hinder the other active players in their play (indirectly, yes, as these spots within the team are effectively 'wasted' and could be better filled with someone who actually wants to be there to contribute).

Premade teams solely value their win rate. They'll take advantage of personal friendships and connections and often voice chat to quickly establish full and unopposable control within random games because their only interest is to improve their personal win-rate. This comes at a cost to the wider community, as these random players now have the incredibly difficult job of somehow orchestrating their completely unknown team into seriously competing against a small group of players who have placed heavy reliance upon the assets available to them to form a premade and coordinated team. (I would add: the premades aren't capable of / aren't willing to bring about this level of coordination amongst random teams, hence why they formed their little premade in the first place. So why force this expectation upon a team of unsuspecting randoms, along with the message of 'git good' when they fail?)
There may be a few stubborn and driven individuals who will push to fight purely for the satisfaction of watching the premade lose. But, for the most part, this situation quickly pushes most into despair and defeatism and, ultimately, away from FLs.


For myself, PvP has already died in previous multiplayer games I enjoyed in the past because of the toxic, arrogant, and self-serving environment it has a habit of forming. So for me, the wider community and helping more into PvP is the priority. Unfortunately, however, the 'personal profit and efficiency' is the priority for far too many

I want to point out something, the tight coordination of a premade group can also be their greatest weakness.

If you're a very good player that understands the ebb and flow of FL combat, you alone can shut down a DRK premade if you play MNK. If you identify the exact moment that the DRK makes the order to dive, you can LB them and then knock them out of position, the RPR will already go in and expect a Salted Earth that will not come, so the RPR LB will scatter people even further out, which makes the DRG LB miss out on the center impact damage, it's a cascade of failures by the premade all by taking out the DRK that's meant to bring it all together.

I've tested this against several premades I know on Materia, so I know this method has a high chance of working. Of course, it's not easy to identify the exact moment you need to disable the DRK, which is why I said you can only do it if you're a very good player with good understanding of combat flow. But the rewards if you manage to pull it off is great, your team only needs to Recuperate once and then regroup to clean up all the ranged jobs that came in with the RPR expecting free kills.

Of course, you likely won't be killing the premade because the DRK will probably call their friends to get out as soon as they realise they've been knocked out of position, but you denied them a bunch of kills and you end up taking points from them by killing those players who don't know when to back out.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

I presume the list was in response to your "Why else would your win-rate rocket" question.

On a different note, the lack of any kind of progressive discussion in this thread is almost laughable, with the same points being repeated endlessly.

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Thank you for pointing that out. I thought including the quote would be enough.

I think discussion on any forum is a tall ask. People on the internet will try anything but talking to someone genuinely. You can't even get someone to explain their position in one post when asked. ;-;

Pretty much agree with you about the leeches. I would add that there is a major effort-time ratio involved.

As for premades, At least some only want to play with friends and others only want to see others lose. It's not some major point. winning is very important to many of them, including myself.

I'm also going to reiterate that while some do use voice, a majority do not. On aether, there are several cwls that people gather up parties with and just use chat. The static party of 4 hyper coordinating in voice is the execption not the rule.

I wanted to expand on (capable/willing to bring about cooperation). Being incapable of is as much as the team's fault as any commander. I.e. I can tell people what jobs are good, when to attack/leave, what objectives to cap; it means nothing if the team doesn't follow.

Being unwilling to coordinate with randoms has its own set of problems. Many leaches react negatively, threatening reports. You take on a lot of responsibility by trying to lead your team, and it's complicated when you first start. I currently use around 32 macros for calls on top of targeting, waymarks, and job actions. It is dreadfully easier to get 3 others who don't need calls and use mob mentality to support you. Less power usually, but you avoid getting flamed. (I'm not saying you need all those macros to be effective, but if I don't express my exact intentions clearly and quickly people won't follow.)

As to why you would "force" this style of play onto others... PVP is a competition. Competition breeds innovation as well as a desire to win. It should be natural to adopt better strategies that increase your chances of winning. NA/EU are simply behind.

Everyone on JP knows how to spread out for dark pulls, guard drg dives, burst on dark salted earth's. They understand pinching and baiting maneuvers and if there is a caller will do their best to listen. Any average premade is no better than the average solo player. Even the top groups rock about a 40%.

The issue we have right now (and why I think FL sucks calling back to this thread's namesake) is the speed at which people are improving is far to slow. The "will to win" isn't enough incentive for the average player to improve. They have a choice between acting like a premade and acting like leeches, and for most, that answer is obvious.

Until Square Enix completely revamps frontline in a way that can get people to play without the need of tomes or the massive xp bonus the rate people will improve will be neglible I suspect for years.

Fact is I enjoy pvping but I have to accept that I'm part of a small minority that does enjoy it, perhaps it's different on JP centers but the vast majority on crystal at least seem to be of the "get in get out" mentality that while I hate, there nothing I can do about

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

I presume the list was in response to your "Why else would your win-rate rocket" question. They're listing the factors (including a premade party - No.7) which they feel contributed to their increase in win-rate.


On a different note, the lack of any kind of progressive discussion in this thread is almost laughable, with the same points being repeated endlessly. Ultimately, it is a 'personal profit and efficiency vs cost to wider community' discussion, but one at the opposite end of scale to leeches.

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I agree this has degenerated into pointless repetition and apologize for my part in that. It's the reason I didn't address "The List" in which only point 7 is relevant, since it would only compound the problem. I also agree completely with your other observations.

You're the one who asked :/

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

The issue we have right now (and why I think FL sucks calling back to this thread's namesake) is the speed at which people are improving is far to slow. The "will to win" isn't enough incentive for the average player to improve. They have a choice between acting like a premade and acting like leeches, and for most, that answer is obvious.

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Maybe the responses I've made on multiple occasions to this point is what I have failed to communicate clearly, and should have been my closing tl;dr on the topic.

Through your training programs at your FL Commander FC and Discord, you will improve the skill level of a handful of people who wish to emulate your style and enjoy your win-rate. I can see from your point of view why that's appealing, albeit short-sighted; from mine it is disastrous.

I'm not too sure who made you arbiter of the correct speed at which FL skill should be improving, but I'd suggest it's not improving at all. And the more you push your agenda, the worse that situation is likely to become. I and others have presented reasons to you why your playstyle decreases the average skill level. For the last time: the elimination of player agency that your playstyle creates increases despondency in the less skilled and drives away the more skilled out of tedium. You eliminate the "will to win" in those who once had it, because will without a way is a neutered desire.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

You're the one who asked :/

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It was a rhetorical question.

Can you agree that if more players were better, premades would be less of a problem?

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Originally Posted by Windfire

Those saying "I want to raise the skill lvl of others" and yet being against separate queues for solo & premade tells you all you need to know-they aren't for anything but being able to steamroll randos, many of whom are "jUsT HeRe fOR ThE EXP luls". One of my biggest wishes for pvp is for them to remove the exp, every single mmo I've played that added exp to pvp ruined it because it brings in what I call lazy leeches, those who will either do just enough to avoid an afk removal or will intentionally run into the enemy over and over for "easy leveling exp".

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Whether it's casual or competitive there won't be enough premade groups to even get that queue popping regularly. Everyone will be forced to play solo (which is what a lot of people want in the first place).

It was slightly better back when we had the option to play on our chosen grand company. People actually tried as long as they didn't run into a premade. You may want to consider bringing back that option? or giving us the option to do frontline customs undersized. (Note: There is a question mark on the bringing back the GCs, because that ultimately causes queue time increase to the most popular GC. With frontlines not having the option for a smaller crowd size to play that option may be dead on arrival.)

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Can you agree that if more players were better, premades would be less of a problem?

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Yes, absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Yes, absolutely.

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Can you agree that currently, average people's skill level is not enough to combat premades?

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

Whether it's casual or competitive there won't be enough premade groups to even get that queue popping regularly. Everyone will be forced to play solo (which is what a lot of people want in the first place).

It was slightly better back when we had the option to play on our chosen grand company. People actually tried as long as they didn't run into a premade. You may want to consider bringing back that option? or giving us the option to do frontline customs undersized. (Note: There is a question mark on the bringing back the GCs, because that ultimately causes queue time increase to the most popular GC. With frontlines not having the option for a smaller crowd size to play that option may be dead on arrival.)

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Right, the problem isn't new.

I'm interested in whether people think 24v24v24 is the ideal size for FL given current skillsets. I suspect it's okay on the new Shatter since the amount of ground that needs to be covered during the small ice phase likely works better with a lot of people. But for the other two maps my guess is 16v16v16 would be more enjoyable. Fewer players might even maintain current queue times while reducing rewards, which as others have noted has some hope of separating the wheat from the chaff.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Can you agree that currently, average people's skill level is not enough to combat premades?

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We seem to be slipping into repetition again, but yes, agreed. Although it begs the question of why they should have to.

So, is it not reasonable to say: the faster the average player improves, the faster premades are less of a problem?

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

So, is it not reasonable to say: the faster the average player improves, the faster premades are less of a problem?

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Yes. Maybe we could move forward to the point where you clap your hands together doing the tail swish thing and announce "Gotcha!"

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Yes. Maybe we could move forward to the point where you clap your hands together doing the tail swish thing and announce "Gotcha!"

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You at least accept that my issue "people are not improving fast enough" is a valid issue.

I would like to continue asking a few more questions. This is not some sort of "gatcha" trap. This is to find where are reasons diverge in a stright forward an direct manner.

Is it wrong to offer advice to players?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Right, the problem isn't new.

I'm interested in whether people think 24v24v24 is the ideal size for FL given current skillsets. I suspect it's okay on the new Shatter since the amount of ground that needs to be covered during the small ice phase likely works better with a lot of people. But for the other two maps my guess is 16v16v16 would be more enjoyable. Fewer players might even maintain current queue times while reducing rewards, which as others have noted has some hope of separating the wheat from the chaff.

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I can certainly agree with that. I'm pretty certain that games would go on a bit longer if the size was reduced. As for rewards, well...that depends on how much value the community is putting on the rewards. That part is going to have to be discussed.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

So, is it not reasonable to say: the faster the average player improves, the faster premades are less of a problem?

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My apologies for butting in. I know you mean well. If I hadn't quit maybe I would be seeking you out for games.
Anyways, people need to be given a reason for improving. If experience points and battle pass rewards is all that is driving most to play pvp then most people aren't going to care about how they play. I mean, pvp has been remade to where it's even easier to play, and that option of just playing for rewards without having to put in as much work is still the optimal work to play. Combine this with the casuals being hyper focused on objectives, and I can pretty much argue that playing pvp for experience points takes way less effort than playing dungeons, trials and roulettes. This type of gameplay style is relaxing to some. As long as there is no value on the in game stats themselves many won't care for improving in general. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

You at least accept that my issue "people are not improving fast enough" is a valid issue.

I would like to continue asking a few more questions. This is not some sort of "gatcha" trap. This is to find where are reasons diverge in a stright forward an direct manner.

Is it wrong to offer advice to players?

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I agree that NA FL matches would be more interesting if the average skill level was significantly higher. Currently, however, there is simply no reason for people to improve at all, except for those like you and me who enjoy being good at things. So to be as clear as I can to avoid further confusion, technically no, I don't agree that "people are not improving fast enough" is a valid issue. I think the route to where you and I both want to get primarily involves changing the composition of the players in FL, not attempting to train those who do not wish to be trained.

"Is it wrong to offer advice to players?" As a general principle, no. The devil is in the details, as I suspect we're about to discover.

Yes, I agree that there is little incentive for player to improve. There is some, but not enough to entice most players.

I do not see why you are choosing to backtrack now. "Players having little reason to improve" is a reason why "players are not improving fast enough"

If you want to continue that line we can, but we have done all we can as players by posting those concerns and discussing possible solutions.
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I will continue my line. I will be more direct. Is it wrong for me to offer advice about frontlines?

Not sure why I didn't think of this until now. I know that very few people has brought that up. I just don't know when. (I sure feel really dumb now. facepalms)

Instead of reducing rewards why don't some of the rewards be tied to in game performance? No, I'm not talking about win/kill amounts being tied to mounts and titles. I'm talking about experience points being tied to the performance themselves. The additional experience points would be thrown on top of participation and team placement. If you've earned slightly more experience points for killing, healing/shielding, and battle high shut downs, and personal objectives acquired to name a few maybe some will naturally improve by pushing for certain extras. I can't say how much this would help though.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Yes, I agree that there is little incentive for player to improve. There is some, but not enough to entice most players.

I do not see why you are choosing to backtrack now. "Players having little reason to improve" is a reason why "players are not improving fast enough"

If you want to continue that line we can, but we have done all we can as players by posting those concerns and discussing possible solutions.
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I will continue my line. I will be more direct. Is it wrong for me to offer advice about frontlines?

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Focus on what we agree on? We'd like the average skill level to increase. We'll get nowhere if we focus on the speed of improvement, since I think premades are partially responsible for the fact it is stuck in neutral.

In that spirit, no, it isn't wrong that you offer advice about FL. I've stated I wish more people would read your analysis of the strategic considerations raised by the three maps in your guide.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

Not sure why I didn't think of this until now. I know that very few people has brought that up. I just don't know when. (I sure feel really dumb now. facepalms)

Instead of reducing rewards why don't some of the rewards be tied to in game performance? No, I'm not talking about win/kill amounts being tied to mounts and titles. I'm talking about experience points being tied to the performance themselves. The additional experience points would be thrown on top of participation and team placement. If you've earned slightly more experience points for killing, healing/shielding, and battle high shut downs, and personal objectives acquired to name a few maybe some will naturally improve by pushing for certain extras. I can't say how much this would help though.

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It's been raised in this thread, but unfortunately Olivia and I have likely obscured it.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

Not sure why I didn't think of this until now. I know that very few people has brought that up. I just don't know when. (I sure feel really dumb now. facepalms)

Instead of reducing rewards why don't some of the rewards be tied to in game performance? No, I'm not talking about win/kill amounts being tied to mounts and titles. I'm talking about experience points being tied to the performance themselves. The additional experience points would be thrown on top of participation and team placement. If you've earned slightly more experience points for killing, healing/shielding, and battle high shut downs, and personal objectives acquired to name a few maybe some will naturally improve by pushing for certain extras. I can't say how much this would help though.

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Yes, it has been suggested. It might even be more reasonable to say it could happen if they're trying to make the game "more stressful" or whatever. But unless you know a pvp dev we've reached the logical end of that discussion ;-;

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Focus on what we agree on? We'd like the average skill level to increase. We'll get nowhere if we focus on the speed of improvement, since I think premades are partially responsible for the fact it is stuck in neutral.

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I do not understand why we are having to go back to this.

-Premades are a problem*
-They are a problem because the average skill level is to low.
-if the average skill level increased, premades would be less* of a problem.
-the faster the average skill level rises, the faster premades are less of a problem.

Did you not agree with these points?

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

I do not understand why we are having to go back to this.

-Premades are a problem*
-They are a problem because the average skill level is to low.
-if the average skill level increased, premades would be less* of a problem.
-the faster the average skill level rises, the faster premades are less of a problem.

Did you not agree with these points?

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Yes. The problem is your reference to an average player. This may seem like a pedantic point, but to me it's critical. Like the average number of children in a family, in which it is physically impossible to have a non-integer number of children, the "average player" in FL is meaningless because the skill/playstyle distribution is trimodal:

1. Players who don't give a tinker's cuss and will likely never improve.
2. Players who play because they enjoy PvP, and tend to naturally improve, either passively by playing or actively by analyzing the mode and talking to others.
3. Premade members (formed to farm wins, not simply friends playing together). A small minority, almost completely dislocated from the rest of the community.

My position is that, to improve the average skill level, you increase the ratio of players in group 2 relative to group 1 (for example, by reducing rewards so less group 1 players queue), and by eliminating group 3 entirely. I think I've explained the reasons for that more than adequately by now.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

Not sure why I didn't think of this until now. I know that very few people has brought that up. I just don't know when. (I sure feel really dumb now. facepalms)

Instead of reducing rewards why don't some of the rewards be tied to in game performance? No, I'm not talking about win/kill amounts being tied to mounts and titles. I'm talking about experience points being tied to the performance themselves. The additional experience points would be thrown on top of participation and team placement. If you've earned slightly more experience points for killing, healing/shielding, and battle high shut downs, and personal objectives acquired to name a few maybe some will naturally improve by pushing for certain extras. I can't say how much this would help though.

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As the others have said, yes the idea has been proposed before. Initially, it doesn't seem like a bad idea at all and would encourage players to push for improvements. But it isn't at all straightforward and there are various issues with such a suggestion:

1. To give better rewards for wins/kills etc., it would just encourage more players to take the easy, high-profit, minimal effort premade option, which would push more regular and new players away from FLs

2. To reward by damage/kills would give some classes an advantage over others. For example, SCH is huge damage numbers for very little effort.

3. How are other contributions going to be judged? For example, a MNK using their LB and knockbacks to try to stop a particularly troublesome enemy DRK. They would be contributing to the team immensely, but that might not be reflected in the statistics at the end of the game.
Whether it is possible somehow to measure such contributions, we have no real way of knowing.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Yes. The problem is your reference to an average player. This may seem like a pedantic point, but to me it's critical. Like the average number of children in a family, in which it is physically impossible to have a non-integer number of children, the "average player" in FL is meaningless because the skill/playstyle distribution is trimodal:

1. Players who don't give a tinker's cuss and will likely never improve.
2. Players who play because they enjoy PvP, and tend to naturally improve, either passively by playing or actively by analyzing the mode and talking to others.
3. Premade members (formed to farm wins, not simply friends playing together). A small minority, almost completely dislocated from the rest of the community.

My position is that, to improve the average skill level, you increase the ratio of players in group 2 relative to group 1 (for example, by reducing rewards so less group 1 players queue), and by eliminating group 3 entirely. I think I've explained the reasons for that more than adequately by now.

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You can't even accept that my concern is valid, and I think your solution is inactionable and wouldn't even work, so probably just give up here.

You say my actions are short sighted, that remains to be seen. I've seen more commanders, more communication, and more grouping up in the past few months then my entire 6 years of XIV. I think these things improves the mode, so as long as I'm able to, even if it's not very much, I'm gonna push FL in that direction.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

You can't even accept that my concern is valid, and I think your solution is inactionable and wouldn't even work, so probably just give up here.

You say my actions are short sighted, that remains to be seen. I've seen more commanders, more communication, and more grouping up in the past few months then my entire 6 years of XIV. I think these things improves the mode, so as long as I'm able to, even if it's not very much, I'm gonna push FL in that direction.

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Agreed, it's clear we have irreconcilable differences on the topic. I remain convinced your actions are damaging the mode. I guess it'd be kinda funny if we're both wrong and the overall quality of play remains pretty much the same. It's possible there's enough inertia in the player base that it is the most probable outcome.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

You at least accept that my issue "people are not improving fast enough" is a valid issue.

I would like to continue asking a few more questions. This is not some sort of "gatcha" trap. This is to find where are reasons diverge in a stright forward an direct manner.

Is it wrong to offer advice to players?

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It is not, but there is no incentive to improve since you get the roulette bonus even if you lose. So it enters one ear Then exits right away from the other ear.

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

It is not, but there is no incentive to improve since you get the roulette bonus even if you lose. So it enters one ear Then exits right away from the other ear.

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Not sure if Olivia was thinking of in-match advice or mentoring via Discord/FC. The former is tricky simply because the battles tend to be hectic, but I'd suggest the standard, aggressive commanding that is becoming increasingly common does more harm than good in this regard. With light commanding or multiple players providing suggestions, all those players who are actually trying have to make constant assessments of the battle state via the map and the current engagement. That is how you learn the mode. It is also essential for fast responses to changing situations. Even with macros firing off, a marker, and the chat getting blasted with <se.X>, there is a significant lag between the commander reaching a decision and the broadcasted orders being processed and acted upon by the other players. Part of this lag is simply that players "simply following orders" have no idea of the current strategic situation; they just do as they're told.

In other words, in the absence of an overbearing commander, interested players develop the strategic skills they need to be good at the game, and in doing so will have far faster reaction times than someone who is simply being told what to do. Indeed it raises the question of why someone would even play a strategy game if their role, as dictated by a self-appointed boss, is to do precisely what they're told. I can imagine the playstyle driving away the best players.

Again I guess it comes down to goals. If the only reason to play FL is to win, then following strict orders from a competent commander may very well be the best approach. But if you want to actually improve, thereby raising the overall skill floor, or heaven forbid exercise some personal agency, such a commander isn't helping at all. The only "learning" element is practicing w-a-s-d navigation, which I suspect most of us have mastered by now.

Let me give a specific example of this. There is a common scenario on Onsal that frequently causes annihilation of the NE-spawn team within the first two minutes.

On the first node spawn, an A-rank pops in north cave. NE team is ordered towards it. For many node configurations that include a B on riverside, there's an opportunity for the South-spawn team to pick up that B uncontested, then pinch the NE team at the cave entrance behind as the NE is engaging the third team that has come in from the west.

If you are paying attention to the map, you're immediately aware of this possibility when the nodes pop. Never have I seen an aggressive commander point this out. And those simply following a "D" seem completely oblivious to it. So what happens?

The commander issues a pinch "warning" when half the team is already respawning back at base, because having been ordered around by such commanders they have never developed map awareness, nor the ability to anticipate what might happen in 20 seconds time.

And who is most likely to get wiped out? "Leeches," sure (don't care for that term). But it will also include the inexperienced players, some of whom are simply new and trying out the mode. And they conclude "oh I died again for no apparent reason, despite doing as I was told, what a bloody stupid game."

Assuming that this command style will raise the skill floor is like assuming that an infantry private is going to learn battle strategies and tactics on the battlefield via osmosis. In fact, it's counter-productive.

In the absence of an aggressive commander, I have "pinch danger from 'color'" ready to go in chat when playing from NE and a configuration spawns that can create this mess. In the presence of an aggressive commander, I shutty for fear of getting yelled at for interrupting their performance.

idk if that is still the case, but that made me INSTANT STOP pvp :
PLD could invuln an ally idk hwo exatcly, and that ally was free to take the objective

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Originally Posted by Patesaupesto

idk if that is still the case, but that made me INSTANT STOP pvp :
PLD could invuln an ally idk hwo exatcly, and that ally was free to take the objective

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SE fixed that. It was a fairly spectacular screw up on their part.

personally as a solo player I do prefer direction in frontlines because there is just so much going on that it's hard for me to pick an optimal decision other than "stay with the pack or die". it is pretty exhilarating playing with a good shot-caller.

but yeah, I can absolutely tell when one of the opposing teams has a premade. they hit like a truck consistently over and over in ways that can't really happen unless they know each other already, or are using a (3rd party!) voice chat, and it's not great as someone who queues in solo. I prefer close games, I'll try my best but it's frustrating to just get absolutely bodied over and over because I had the "misfortune" of ending up on a team with a bunch of strangers who don't know each other.

Like, I play DRG and only DRG in pvp, all of my attack options are selfish, I basically exist to be a sniper rifle picking off people who stray from the pack. I'm not sure what else I can be doing in that situation if a coordinated group just bowls all of us over and kills us seemingly instantly?

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

personally as a solo player I do prefer direction in frontlines because there is just so much going on that it's hard for me to pick an optimal decision other than "stay with the pack or die". it is pretty exhilarating playing with a good shot-caller.

but yeah, I can absolutely tell when one of the opposing teams has a premade. they hit like a truck consistently over and over in ways that can't really happen unless they know each other already, or are using a (3rd party!) voice chat, and it's not great as someone who queues in solo. I prefer close games, I'll try my best but it's frustrating to just get absolutely bodied over and over because I had the "misfortune" of ending up on a team with a bunch of strangers who don't know each other.

Like, I play DRG and only DRG in pvp, all of my attack options are selfish, I basically exist to be a sniper rifle picking off people who stray from the pack. I'm not sure what else I can be doing in that situation if a coordinated group just bowls all of us over and kills us seemingly instantly?

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The standard advice I've received is "get friends, form your own premade," which is as condescending as it is arrogant. I guess the good news is that, as a DRG, you are useful to a DRK+ premade when you land on their team. Unfortunately, assuming a single premade in a match, that only happens 29% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

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I know how demoralising it can be and how it tends to remove any semblance of 'competition' within a game - removed by the very people who claim to be playing this way because they want to see more competition? That logic doesn't quite work for me, but for now this is an issue that we are unfortunately stuck with. We can only work with it.

Firstly avoid giving up and becoming defeatist. Premade teams can be beaten. It does need a bit of luck and teamwork, but isn't entirely impossible. Unfortunately, in general, such games will require the two random alliances to work together to focus the premade's alliance down. This is where a bit of luck is needed. Sadly, we have no control over what the second random alliance chooses to do and can only hope that they also choose the path of determined cooperation.
However, we can influence our own alliance and there are small things which we could do to help increase our chances of competing a tiny bit:

1. When you see a particularly troublesome DRK, mark them at the earliest opportunity you get. It will make them far easier to spot at a distance and give you and the rest of your alliance a tiny bit more warning of them incoming.

2. Once you see them and mark them, call a warning. Something in chat about watching out for a DRK/premade on xxx team. Assuming the premade aren't using a RPR/DNC to remove Guard, you can also give a quick reminder to your team to use Guard if they get caught by the DRK. This would be common knowledge amongst regular players, but if it helps to remind new or beginner players of the tools available to them, then all the better.

3. Try to keep a focus on the premade alliance at every opportunity available. While it might seem counterproductive at the beginning when they'll likely be 2nd/3rd place in points (as they're largely ignoring early objectives and going straight into farming BH), if you take your attention off them for even a moment, they'll quickly take the advantage to the point where it's much, much harder to take it back again.
The second random alliance is your friend. If you are lucky enough that they choose to take a defiant stand and focus down the premade, help them. Pinch the premade while they're beginning their attack on the other alliance. Farm BH

4. General good play also helps, obviously. Keep a watch on your own DRK (if you have one), try to coordinate your own attacks/LB with their vokes, say something when your LB is ready (it will let the DRK know you're ready for a burst and let the other DPS know that you can get some good damage if they are able to coordinate their attacks/LB with yours). Map bottlenecks are a nightmare vs premades, try to spread out as much as possible.

Other tips are generally more class-specific. Depending on how confident you are and how interested you are in expanding your knowledge of various classes in PvP, you could always give MNK, RPR, DRK etc. a try to take a more targeted role in trying to hinder the premade

I do think there's some hope this situation will be at least mitigated by SE. It's clear there's a persistent sub-community of PvPers who chase down any angle to farm wins, or who just enjoy the thrill of obliterating opponents through an unfair edge. Was it 5.1 when by switching off freelancer you'd get entire 24-person teams that Q-synched in?

The shame of it is that there are people who simply like to play with a friend or two, plus the best way to introduce others to the mode is to party up. As Scintilla noted in another one of her posts, people are selfish. I just wish some wouldn't try to paint that selfishness as altruism.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The standard advice I've received is "get friends, form your own premade," which is as condescending as it is arrogant.

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To be fair, if you are playing to farm wins then I don't see why you wouldn't try and find/make a premade to do them with. Not saying it's an absolute requirement to do so, but getting friends or just randoms who also care about getting wins shouldn't be incredibly hard to find.