Need advice: static imploding because of cheater.

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Originally Posted by Pixieh

What they feel doesn't matter.
SE's game. SE's rules.
They are on SE's turf and acting like an elephant in a porcelain shop.

What they do on their own time in their life is up to them, but not here.
If they use such cheats then they're breaking those rules irregardless of 'how they feel' 'what they think'.
It really does not get simpler than that.

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Let me rephrase it, you telling them that they broke ToS, SE word is law matters to them on a personal level? They do not feel like they cheated, they are going to do it and most likely go unpunished thus fueling their own conformation bias that what they are doing is okay.

By word of SE they are breaking the rules, a rule that cannot be enforced outside of self snitching what is really going to happen? It is kind of the reverse, your feelings on the subject to do not matter, until SE can come up with a means of enforcing their rules without the reliance on self snitching people are going to cheat, and they are going to get away with it.

This is a one sided beef that makes zero sense to me honestly.

There's no way to guarantee that no one else in your group is cheating, and no way to guarantee the new recruits won't also be cheating.

I wouldn't have kicked them. Especially being that far into TOP. Cacbot has existed forever and is more cheaty than a zoom hack in my opinion. But you're raid lead, you can decide what kind of environment you want to uphold. Just know that access to plugins and mods has never been easier than it is now.

I say snitches get stiches

I'd question a raid leader that didn't kick a cheater.

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Originally Posted by Pixieh

According to the TOS that have been quoted here it literally is. The definition on this type of cheat IS clearly worded.
What you personally think is worth exactly zero.

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And according to SE themselves (https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216)

- Modifying, analyzing, integrating, and/or reverse-engineering game software or data.
- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.

Are also not allowed. So no voice chat since it's a utility that interacts with the game. No logging either! Oh and no keyboard key remappings either, that's a utility!

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Probably is fake, which is why I feel a little dumb that I keep posting in the thread lol.

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I mean all we have to do is look at who OP is and see that it's a troll thread, but OP posted the lowest hanging fruit possible for the current time so of course they got a ton of bites.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

And according to SE themselves (https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216)

- Modifying, analyzing, integrating, and/or reverse-engineering game software or data.
- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.

Are also not allowed. So no voice chat since it's a utility that interacts with the game. No logging either! Oh and no keyboard key remappings either, that's a utility!

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Even Gamerespace is against TOS if you take it to the extreme. If I recall Yoship made a comment in jest about discord and excel being third party tools.

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Originally Posted by Pixieh

Either way done with this thread.

I hope everyone who breaks the TOS by cheating will eventually get banned.

Then we'll see 'what they think' or 'what they feel' is worth when they try to ban appeal.

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I'm going to actually break my stance of not really getting involved in this troll thread.

People with this mindset are absolutely insufferable, you realize that right? It doesn't matter how correct or incorrect you are, the moment you basically start calling for divine punishment against those you disagree with out of some sense of self-righteousness is the moment you reveal how truly arrogant you actually are. You called someone else "fourteen", but this mindset is literally the kid in a classroom who tells the teacher that one of their classmates is passing notes or whatever. Yeah, they're breaking rules, but what does it get you? A momentary feeling of self-righteousness at the cost of ruining any and all relationships you have? And in this case over a freaking video game? The thing that a lot of people are playing for their own enjoyment and distraction from life? The idea of someone breaking the rules hurts you so much that you're going to sit here and hope they get banned, even though as long as they're smart about what they're doing (aka not advertising to the world that they're using mods) no one would ever have a chance of even knowing about.

Cheating is bad, yes, most of us agree on that.

Witch hunting people for using mods is also bad, if not worse, especially because YoshiP said he doesn't want people doing this. Why is it okay to pick and choose which statements YoshiP makes to crusade for while ignoring others?

And the funny part is, if what someone said earlier in the thread is true, the zoom hack isn't even a cheat considering if you have a good monitor, you basically already zoom out to where the zoom hack lets you zoom to.
The sad part is, someone asked earlier in the thread about using a shader for colorblind accessibility and you acted like they were cheating. They literally CAN'T PLAY THE GAME due to the game's already poor accessibility options, how is bringing it up to the standard *everyone else has* in any way shape or form "cheating"? Against the TOS? Sure, probably, but cheating? Where's the "unfair advantage"?

Sorry, but white knight holier than thou crusaders that literally go against YoshiP's wishes by acting like the game's police and start calling for bans and wrath are far more appalling to me than someone who uses mods.

But if SQEX won't put anticheat in the game and task the community to report, which in turn gets called bootlickers/hall monitors for doing just that, what's one to do?

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But if SQEX won't put anticheat in the game

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You DO NOT WANT an anticheat in FF 14.

You dont. Trust me on this.

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, but this mindset is literally the kid in a classroom who tells the teacher that one of their classmates is passing notes or whatever.

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"Teacher, the guy in the third row is passing notes to the guy next to him in this exam" Id report that in a heartbeat.

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Sorry, but white knight holier than thou crusaders that literally go against YoshiP's wishes by acting like the game's police and start calling for bans and wrath are far more appalling to me than someone who uses mods.

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Still, waiting to hear why it is that people who tell others they are better at the game need cheats to win. If you cant beat the hardest content on your own merits...then that a skill issue.

Isnt it?

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

But if SQEX won't put anticheat in the game and task the community to report, which in turn gets called bootlickers/hall monitors for doing just that, what's one to do?

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The community has been asked to report if they have reasonable suspicion.

Otherwise, the thing for the community to do is to abide by the ToS themselves. We can't be responsible for what other players choose to do but we can be responsible for what we do ourselves. We may not agree with all rules, but we should nevertheless follow them until such time as we can convince those who do make the rules to change things.

If someone wants to resort to that sort of name calling, it tells us that they have no interest in being accountable for the choices they make and would prefer to deflect attention away from themselves by blaming others.

I think a big problem is that it is really only in multiplayer games that cheating becomes a problem. With a single player game, no one else is affected.

If someone has played nothing but single player games for years, using mods and cheats as they want without repercussions, they're going to have a hard time adjusting to multiplayer games where suddenly it can matter.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Still, waiting to hear why it is that people who tell others they are better at the game need cheats to win. If you cant beat the hardest content on your own merits...then that a skill issue.

Isnt it?

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If you want a genuine answer to that question, you'd first have to show when and where any of the people who were caught cheating actually told others they are better at the game. Because I still don't know who we're talking about.

Is this about the raiding community at large? Because as far as I know, Cactbot users are the butt of all jokes there too. We just have fewer very passionate individuals who think accessibility plugins, minor UI enhancements and dps meters are an actual crime.

If I was on a team where leader didn't do anything about a cheater, I would leave it and find a better team that doesn't need to cheat to win. I dealt with cheaters for years on Aion when played it. I don't need to remember those bad days that had to deal with them.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

If I was on a team where leader didn't do anything about a cheater, I would leave it and find a better team that doesn't need to cheat to win. I dealt with cheaters for years on Aion when played it. I don't need to remember those bad days that had to deal with them.

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And news flash, a few people that you do PF with or in your static probably use third party tools and you have no idea. "I dont do it" with source : "trust me bro", doesnt mean anything, why ? Because there is no way for you or even SE to know who is using them, except if they scream it on all roofs.

Threads like this for example?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ds-to-increase.

So, to put this as politely as I can, dont tell ME to "git gud" when in THIS THREAD it has been admitted that a LARGE percentage of players in "harder content" cant beat savage or ex or ultimate without a boatload of addons.

The utter hypocrisy is ...to be frank, sickening.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Threads like this for example?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ds-to-increase.

So, to put this as politely as I can, dont tell ME to "git gud" when in THIS THREAD it has been admitted that a LARGE percentage of players in "harder content" cant beat savage or ex or ultimate without a boatload of addons.

The utter hypocrisy is ...to be frank, sickening.

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You continuing to lie is sickening yet here we are.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Threads like this for example?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ds-to-increase.

So, to put this as politely as I can, dont tell ME to "git gud" when in THIS THREAD it has been admitted that a LARGE percentage of players in "harder content" cant beat savage or ex or ultimate without a boatload of addons.

The utter hypocrisy is ...to be frank, sickening.

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Did DixieBellOCE admit to cheating in high-end content?
Not wanting to publicly hang all cheaters like some people do is not an admission of cheating, nor does it means that cheating is supported.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Did DixieBellOCE admit to cheating in high-end content? Not wanting to hang all cheaters like some people do is not an admission of cheating.

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Tell ya what Kazhar: I hope that they DO make it official. I hope they DO have a world first race with supervised computers and no addons allowed.

Then we will see who really is the best at the game.

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Did DixieBellOCE admit to cheating in high-end content?

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Never said she did. Never said that at all. What I did and will continue to say is that no one who does high end content with addons is in any position to tell anyone else to "be better at the game". Thats my point.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

And news flash, a few people that you do PF with or in your static probably use third party tools and you have no idea. "I dont do it" with source : "trust me bro", doesnt mean anything, why ? Because there is no way for you or even SE to know who is using them, except if they scream it on all roofs.

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Apples and oranges.

The cheater outed themselves via a stream. It is irrelevant if 1 or a million people view it. Once the player has broadcast themselves cheating, and OP became aware of it, they had to decide to become complicit or to remove and report a cheater.

This is less comparable to randos in PF who may or may not cheat and more like the idiot putting themselves on social media licking hamburger buns or spitting in the Salad Bar.

There is/was nothing stopping the remaining 6 from seeking out the cheater and reforming the group complicit in cheating.

SE is basically operating on Fight Club rules, and the idiot OP kicked broke rule 1.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Tell ya what Kazhar: I hope that they DO make it official. I hope they DO have a world first race with supervised computers and no addons allowed.

Then we will see who really is the best at the game.



Never said she did. Never said that at all. What I did and will continue to say is that no one who does high end content with addons is in any position to tell anyone else to "be better at the game". Thats my point.

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Just more dodging instead of putting up proof. As expected. Dont worry though, your RP addons are safe. (I bet that is why you dont want anti cheat in this game :) )

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Tell ya what Kazhar: I hope that they DO make it official. I hope they DO have a world first race with supervised computers and no addons allowed.

Then we will see who really is the best at the game.

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I think you might ironically care more about who's the best at the game than I do.
I mean sure, an officially sponsorised World First might be a good idea, but you might be disappointed at the results. I'm pretty sure the winners would be generally the same people who've claimed WF in multiple savage and ultimate content since Stormblood.

Zoom hacks are pretty egregious but not to the point that it could give you a two day lead in such an intense competition. Give all possible plugins to your average TOP raider you see in PF and they probably still won't be able to clear P2 consistently after a week.
The RDM in his DSR World First didn't even bother cleaning any of his add-ons and the worst we've seen is a single automated callout for a mechanic that's so easy (Nidhogg cleaves after Wroth Flames, which only requires you to read the name of the attack in enmity list) I don't even know why it was there in the first place.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Threads like this for example?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ds-to-increase.

So, to put this as politely as I can, dont tell ME to "git gud" when in THIS THREAD it has been admitted that a LARGE percentage of players in "harder content" cant beat savage or ex or ultimate without a boatload of addons.

The utter hypocrisy is ...to be frank, sickening.

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Have they proven it, or have they simply stated it makes it convenient? Also, define "boatload". What sort of add-ons are you considering are required for people to clear? ACT, perhaps, that's the obvious one, which in turn leads to Cactbot. Some people rely on Alexander to reduce ping-related problems. Maybe shaders to help discern markers?

Though I doubt anything those do (with MAYBE the exception of Cactbot) implies they couldn't clear that content otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Just more dodging instead of putting up proof. As expected. Dont worry though, your RP addons are safe. (I bet that is why you dont want anti cheat in this game :) )

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I dont have any addons. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. I also dont RP.

You also didnt read what I said..I said you dont want anticheats in FF 14. You dont. You have no idea what can of worms would be opened with those systems. But as you will.

Isn't ant cheat software a no no in Japan? I thought I read that somewhere but could be mistaken.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I dont have any addons. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. I also dont RP.

You also didnt read what I said..I said you dont want anticheats in FF 14. You dont. You have no idea what can of worms would be opened with those systems. But as you will.

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Most casuals do use addons so with your logic of sweeping accusations with no basis it's perfectly okay to assume you are aswell. Casuals using addons are in no place to tell others what they can and cant use.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

(I bet that is why you dont want anti cheat in this game :) )

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Here's a can of worms I hope nobody opens. Even kernel-level anti-cheat is not gonna work. You think square has the ability to maintain an anticheat properly considering their current track record with responding to other feedback and technical difficulties? I will uninstall the game in a heartbeat if something akin to Riot Vanguard touches FFXIV, feels more like an attack vector than a game feature.

Also I'm pretty sure square can detect most of not all mods already, mods from what I have seen alter files changeing sizes and altering files. You know to remove a mod you run the patcher right? Where hacks like rotation/ bots etc are injects.

I think they know more than is given credit for.

I wouldn't poke the bear :p

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Most casuals do use addons so with your logic of sweeping accusations with no basis it's perfectly okay to assume you are aswell. Casuals using addons are in no place to tell others what they can and cant use

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I already said it..I dont need or want or use any kind of addons. None. Zero. Nothing. I have no need for them, the Vanilla UI as it is works fine. You can assume whatever you like, I dont care, I also said ( see above ) that IF I joined a static or other group for savage or ex or whatever, if they said I need to get whatever addon , I would refuse outright.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I already said it..I dont need or want or use any kind of addons. None. Zero. Nothing. I have no need for them, the Vanilla UI as it is works fine. You can assume whatever you like, I dont care, I also said ( see above ) that IF I joined a static or other group for savage or ex or whatever, if they said I need to get whatever addon , I would refuse outright.

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So you would refuse to improve.

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Originally Posted by Hoodcat

Also I'm pretty sure square can detect most of not all mods already, mods from what I have seen alter files changeing sizes and altering files. You know to remove a mod you run the patcher right? Where hacks like rotation/ bots etc are injects.

I think they know more than is given credit for.

I wouldn't poke the bear :p

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It's the same as with bots, the currently available addons would be insanely easy to detect. That would not stay this way if they really did check. Assuming of course the game wouldnt just break on its own under the weight of anti cheat added. The assumption that SE would even be able to make one that doesnt make the game hilariously unfunctional isnt one based on facts.

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Originally Posted by NullPointerException

Here's a can of worms I hope nobody opens. Even kernel-level anti-cheat is not gonna work. You think square has the ability to maintain an anticheat properly considering their current track record with responding to other feedback and technical difficulties? I will uninstall the game in a heartbeat if something akin to Riot Vanguard touches FFXIV, feels more like an attack vector than a game feature.

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I am well aware of what a kernel rootkit can do, which is why i will never let any EA game within a thousand miles.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

So you would refuse to improve.

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If by "improving" you mean installing cheat programs? Yeah thats right, Id refuse immediately. I dont see why thats a problem for anyone. Wouldnt you?

Rise or fall, pass or fail, Id do so on my own merits. As it should be.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I am well aware of what a kernel rootkit can do, which is why i will never let any EA game within a thousand miles.

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But mass effect series D:

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I am well aware of what a kernel rootkit can do, which is why i will never let any EA game within a thousand miles.



If by "improving" you mean installing cheat programs? Yeah thats right, Id refuse immediately. I dont see why thats a problem for anyone.

Rise or fall, pass or fail, Id do so on my own merits. As it should be.

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How is FFlogs a cheat program though ? Lol.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

It's the same as with bots, the currently available addons would be insanely easy to detect. That would not stay this way if they really did check. Assuming of course the game wouldnt just break on its own under the weight of anti cheat added. The assumption that SE would even be able to make one that doesnt make the game hilariously unfunctional isnt one based on facts.

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The real issue with them adding anti-cheat is that they would be just asking to lose half their subscriber base overnight. Between raiders wanting logs and RPers wanting clothing edits and stuff, no way they would ban all of them.

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How is FFlogs a cheat program though ? Lol.

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As I can find ( and maybe you can help here )..it seems FFLogs takes its data from a third party program that isnt allowed in TOS. It doesnt take data from the game itself...you need a 3rd party program to get that to work.

So you tell me. is it?

Stormpeaks: if you were arguing in good faith Id continue..............but you arent.

We disagree, leave it there.

Later. Im busy.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

As I can find ( and maybe you can help here )..it seems FFLogs takes its data from a third party program..ACT.

Is ACT allowed? No.

So you tell me. is it?

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So improving is basically cheating because it comes from a third party.

Alrighty then

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So improving is basically cheating because it comes from a third party.

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Since the third party program isnt allowed...yes. If it took data from the game as it is, no..but as it requires the use of a third party program that is not allowed under TOS, and since I wont ever agree to use that program, no logs.

Seems simple to me.

But again, you already know this..so why ask?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Since the third party program isnt allowed...yes. If it took data from the game as it is, no..but as it requires the use of a third party program that is not allowed under TOS, and since I wont ever agree to use that program, no logs.

Seems simple to me.

But again, you already know this..so why ask?

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Yeah you are something else, there is literally no way to improve without third party tools, I dont even do the content myself and I know that, you can improve your rotation sure by looking at icyveins or other sources (which by the way were used using third party tools to practice the best rotations). FFLogs is not cheating, neither is improving, the source where it comes from ? So be it that it's used for other things, but to literally call improving at the game cheating is absolutely ridiculous, and by calling fflogs cheating, you are calling improving at the game cheating.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

As I can find ( and maybe you can help here )..it seems FFLogs takes its data from a third party program that isnt allowed in TOS. It doesnt take data from the game itself...you need a 3rd party program to get that to work.

So you tell me. is it?

Stormpeaks: if you were arguing in good faith Id continue..............but you arent.

We disagree, leave it there.

Later. Im busy.

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ACT legit just reads the in-game battle log, you can manually do the same thing and dump it into excel to make a parser that way, ACT just automates the process. It was originally built for EQ2 and what's funny about that I'm pretty sure Yoship used to play it so I would bet money that he has used ACT before.

a very simple parser would be adding up all the damage I do and / by the encounter length in seconds = my dps.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

Yeah you are something else, there is literally no way to improve without third party tools, I dont even do the content myself and I know that

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I gotta have to disagree with that, or at least add some nuance.
You can't improve without data. Improving by itself has nothing to do with fflogs. The thing is the best way to acquire that data by far is through the use of third party tools because the game by itself is extremely bad at giving you any competent evaluation of your performance (to prevent toxicity). FFlogs doesn't give you any information that's inaccessible so you technically don't ever need it. It's just more digest than all the alternatives.