Monk Positionals 6.0

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A simple spitball:

Fluid Strikes (Trait) - Every third flank or rear attack you land from the correct position generates a charge of Fluid Strikes, which are consumed to cause your next would-be missed flank or rear attack to deal damage as if it hit from the correct position. You can hold up to three charges of Fluid Strikes.

Simple. Intuitive. Not invasive. Actually deals with random boss spins and tank shenanigans.

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Thanks for explaining! I understand now; I've seen the idea of automated (old) RoE/TN as a reward for landing positionals shared before. I think it would definitely be preferable to what we have now, or have recently had, though I also think it'd have to be a lot more than a 3 charge cap to deal with all of the game's said shenanigans. I'd still prefer to have no positionals at all, but this kind of leniency would go a long way toward making me not irate with them if the charge cap were high enough.

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

Thanks for explaining! I understand now; I've seen the idea of automated (old) RoE/TN as a reward for landing positionals shared before. I think it would definitely be preferable to what we have now, or have recently had, though I also think it'd have to be a lot more than a 3 charge cap to deal with all of the game's said shenanigans.

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Given that this version wouldn't count the positionals guaranteed by Fluid Strikes towards further Fluid Strikes generation, I wouldn't hate having 4 charges, but this would already allow for, in effect, 3 & 2/3s charges, since the progress towards the last would just be frozen until the 3rd charge is made open again. That's effectively 3 guaranteed in a row and only a single further success to guarantee yet another.

Honestly... it feels unlikely that we'd need more than ~6s (nearly 10s) at a time or at frequency greater than every ~18-26 seconds.

If a stack point, for instance, is forcing us out of positionals for that long, it's almost certainly just in the wrong place (it should, unless specifically prevented, be centered on the center of the boss's hitbox, allowing positionals even while helping to split the damage).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Given that this version wouldn't count the positionals guaranteed by Fluid Strikes towards further Fluid Strikes generation, I wouldn't hate having 4 charges, but this would already allow for, in effect, 3 & 2/3s charges, since the progress towards the last would just be frozen until the 3rd charge is made open again. That's effectively 3 guaranteed in a row and only a single further success to guarantee yet another.

Honestly... it feels unlikely that we'd need more than ~6s (nearly 10s) at a time or at frequency greater than every ~18-26 seconds.

If a stack point, for instance, is forcing us out of positionals for that long, it's almost certainly just in the wrong place (it should, unless specifically prevented, be centered on the center of the boss's hitbox, allowing positionals even while helping to split the damage).

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I think uptime strats and very coordinated groups usually don't force monks (before the changes) into a position where they might need more than the TN they have available to them, though it does happen with a select few fights iirc. Current monk would definitely not need more than 3 charges, but previous monk would. I had assumed that this leniency change was hand-in-hand with positionals being brought back, in which case I don't agree that 3 or 4 charges is enough.

However, I'm assuming coordinated groups in difficult endgame content for the sake of these examples. This doesn't solve all positional issues for all of the game's content and playing with random players. I'd personally rather not try to solve a problem for a job with only favorable scenarios taken into consideration, and in specific circumstances (Savage/Ultimate/Ex etc.) at that. The inherent volatility of positionals across content and groups is one of the reasons I'd really prefer to just see them go.

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

I think uptime strats and very coordinated groups usually don't force monks (before the changes) into a position where they might need more than the TN they have available to them, though it does happen with a select few fights iirc. Current monk would definitely not need more than 3 charges, but previous monk would. I had assumed that this leniency change was hand-in-hand with positionals being brought back, in which case I don't agree that 3 or 4 charges is enough.

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It would come with a return to positionals, yes. But we'll just have to disagree on whether 3-4 GCD's worth at a time would be sufficient.

I cannot imagine any case short of being forced out of melee range entirely (in which case we have SSS and Meditation) that would force over 4 consecutive GCDs in front of the boss and distant enough from the flank and rear (as in, not stacking within the boss's hitbox) that melee would be unable to get positionals.

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

The inherent volatility of positionals across content and groups is one of the reasons I'd really prefer to just see them go.

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Some Black Mages also complain about fights that force them to move (and healers complain that some black mages try to sit through damage and stress their resources more as a result). Should we then also remove 3/4th of all castbars from jobs that have them? Some Black Mages also complain about astral/umbral timers because they don't want to feel "punished" for making mistakes. Should we just remove those too?

That's what this argument ultimately boils down to. Should we remove things that actually challenge players who are seeking to put out the most DPS possible? Because at the end of the day, a good Monk not only was able to land their positionals consistently, they could manage their resources to account for times when a boss/encounter was going to make landing them difficult. A good black mage learns the fights, learns where and when they can greed, to slidecast, when they absolutely need to move. Good players strive to follow "the plan", true, but more importantly they understand what to do when the game deliberately throws wrenches into that plan. That's part of the skill. That's what makes learning fights, learning a job as a whole, actually interesting.

I feel like people want to be able to reach the "maximum" their jobs are capable of without putting in the effort required to get there.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

Some Black Mages also complain about fights that force them to move (and healers complain that some black mages try to sit through damage and stress their resources more as a result). Should we then also remove 3/4th of all castbars from jobs that have them? Some Black Mages also complain about astral/umbral timers because they don't want to feel "punished" for making mistakes. Should we just remove those too?

That's what this argument ultimately boils down to. Should we remove things that actually challenge players who are seeking to put out the most DPS possible? Because at the end of the day, a good Monk not only was able to land their positionals consistently, they could manage their resources to account for times when a boss/encounter was going to make landing them difficult. A good black mage learns the fights, learns where and when they can greed, to slidecast, when they absolutely need to move. Good players strive to follow "the plan", true, but more importantly they understand what to do when the game deliberately throws wrenches into that plan. That's part of the skill. That's what makes learning fights, learning a job as a whole, actually interesting.

I feel like people want to be able to reach the "maximum" their jobs are capable of without putting in the effort required to get there.

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I can't agree with the premise of your argument toward me. Your base counter-example uses cast bars, which are not volatile in the same situations that positionals are and therefore have a different feel to them. If you wanted to compare me liking positionals or not to a mechanic that is exactly the same and ask me about it, that would be fine. The base premise of my argument (a few posts back) is that I don't enjoy positionals, and their volatility is "one of the reasons."

Positionals have long since become near-automatic for me. I of course occasionally miss them through no one's fault but my own, I think everyone does some times, and that isn't what bothers me. My desire to see positionals go has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with being uninterested in them. I understand that other people find them difficult and enjoy that aspect of them, and I think positional difficulty would be a comparable argument to have with other mechanics, but that is not at all what I'm expressing here.

I feel like positions shouldn't really be a thing so much as combos opening up depending on position should be.
Having a 123 rotation where you have to move around just doesn't seem monk like as much as changing your next combo attack to take advantage of the position should.
As an example, if you can't get to the back to true strike, maybe there should be a flank attack that does similar, we'll call it dolphin kick for this example. Maybe true strike does more raw damage and would be preferred, but dolphin kick extends disciplined fist and gives movement speed? A less than ideal trade but an actual combo system would make for an interesting monk I think.
This would be less than ideal for button bloat though I admit and would probably require a confusing amount of switching buttons to work with the tab target combat.

Damn man, I think they made a HUGE mistake putting positionals in this game full stop. Especially 6 on one job. You'll got used to lazy class design and now beg for it, rather than asking for an actual engaging class.
Kinda sad tbh, both that square didn't put all the effort in, and that community just want them to be as lazy as uncreative as possible. Guess that is why mechanically this game is still one of the worst 'big' MMORPGS on the market, mechanically speaking only.

I mean, you can't have abilities pop off almost two seconds after you hit the button and actually sit there and tell me that this game has been coded well. It is amateur at best.

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

I can't agree with the premise of your argument toward me. Your base counter-example uses cast bars, which are not volatile in the same situations that positionals are and therefore have a different feel to them. If you wanted to compare me liking positionals or not to a mechanic that is exactly the same and ask me about it, that would be fine. The base premise of my argument (a few posts back) is that I don't enjoy positionals, and their volatility is "one of the reasons."

Positionals have long since become near-automatic for me. I of course occasionally miss them through no one's fault but my own, I think everyone does some times, and that isn't what bothers me. My desire to see positionals go has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with being uninterested in them. I understand that other people find them difficult and enjoy that aspect of them, and I think positional difficulty would be a comparable argument to have with other mechanics, but that is not at all what I'm expressing here.

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I'm kind of inclined to agree now after playing EW MNK, NIN and RPR for a bit. At first I missed the positionals because they were quite challenging when I was newer to the job and that made it pretty engaging. Now I'm doing them on autopilot even though they're not in the game anymore.

I think my problem with them was that they're only a potency boost. If they felt a bit more rewarding, ie rewarding chakra or filling a new, second gauge(I know that'd be more punishing but I don't care, gitgud), then I might enjoy it more. But at the moment I'm kind of getting more of a kick out of DPS jobs that have more resources to manage, and I think that's where I'm at with how I feel about MNK: Perfect Balance isn't a very engaging mechanic, and chakra is poorly implemented. 3 damage oGCDs are gone so I'm not having to manage those cooldowns/stocks anymore, either. So I'm probably gonna play a different job for now unless they ever change some of this stuff about MNK, because whoever's balancing and adjusting DRG, BLM, SAM, NIN seems to have way more of a clue what they're doing than MNK which feels like a sinking ship.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Damn man, I think they made a HUGE mistake putting positionals in this game full stop. Especially 6 on one job. You'll got used to lazy class design and now beg for it, rather than asking for an actual engaging class.
Kinda sad tbh, both that square didn't put all the effort in, and that community just want them to be as lazy as uncreative as possible. Guess that is why mechanically this game is still one of the worst 'big' MMORPGS on the market, mechanically speaking only.

I mean, you can't have abilities pop off almost two seconds after you hit the button and actually sit there and tell me that this game has been coded well. It is amateur at best.

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Do you ever have anything positive to say?

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

The base premise of my argument (a few posts back) is that I don't enjoy positionals, and their volatility is "one of the reasons."

Positionals have long since become near-automatic for me.

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That's fair, but I have to question your premise anyway. Anything can become automatic to a skilled player, or at least a player who has put in a lot of time on a given job. That's a big reason why there ARE so many jobs in the game, to help keep things fresh.

Eventually, blitzes will become "automatic" to you, or "near-automatic". Given that you're a level 90 monk, I suspect they already are. What then? Should we remove blitzes and instead replace them with, I dunno, castbars? Just to "mix things up" a little bit?

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Originally Posted by Atamis

I feel like positions shouldn't really be a thing so much as combos opening up depending on position should be.

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I guarantee that combos that are this reliant on position would get the Navnavs of the world extremely angry about a job they aren't even playing yet this expansion while they run through as a tank, assuming the log in queues allow them to even play to begin with. People already were complaining about Dragoon offering ONE button that opens up for landing a positional. If you think basing the entirety of monk around something like this wouldn't result in even more outrage from people who hop into threads saying "so i tried monk after getting (some other job) to cap and didn't like it so i stopped playing it", you're honestly fooling yourself.

People who simply don't want to be asked to do things that require movement aren't going to accept a job that "unlocks" something for landing a positional. They still wouldn't play the job. And ironically, SE has made an effort with every expansion since HW on to de-emphasize their importance, to simplify the job to make it more "accessible" even as its presence in endgame raids cratered. Pain points like TP were removed across the board. They held back on GL4 because they legitimately believed players couldn't handle that speed. They killed the tornado kick rotation in SB because they didn't like what players managed to put together with the flawed kit.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

That's fair, but I have to question your premise anyway. Anything can become automatic to a skilled player, or at least a player who has put in a lot of time on a given job. That's a big reason why there ARE so many jobs in the game, to help keep things fresh.

Eventually, blitzes will become "automatic" to you, or "near-automatic". Given that you're a level 90 monk, I suspect they already are. What then? Should we remove blitzes and instead replace them with, I dunno, castbars? Just to "mix things up" a little bit?

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I again cannot agree with your example, despite the fact I don't feel it applies here. You're comparing positionals to a GCD with an entirely different build-up and interaction. Also, the automation of positionals was not my premise - positionals being unenjoyable for me was.

I briefly touched on the automation of positionals just in reply to difficulty, and how that isn't a consideration for me in if I like them or not. Everything else is about fun factor for me. I don't find positionals fun, automatic or not. I do find blitzes decently fun (they are not yet automatic for me btw, but I just like doing them). However, and again, my posts are only about positionals right now. Not if they're difficult for me, or if they have merit as a difficult part of the game, but if they're fun for me. They're not, full stop. That's what my posts are about.

I kind of feel like you're selecting small parts of my post out to reply to and attempting to shift my argument into something that it isn't about. I don't necessarily think you're doing this on purpose, but that you're perhaps assuming or expecting a bit too much about my feelings on the subject. If you want to criticize what I find fun or not, that's totally fine by me, but it won't make those things suddenly fun or engaging for me. I absolutely respect that other people find them fun, that's great, but I don't. I'm here to share that people who don't like positionals on their fun factor alone do exist, because I am one of them.

Edit: I forgot to close quotes, derp.

You know what, you guys go ahead and enjoy the new monk. I was like many of the people in this thread for a while, albeit less belligerent. I still am to an extent, as I probably won't be playing the monk again any time soon. Then I saw the thread for the Summoners changes. It was eye opening to see the similarities between this thread and the Summoner thread. So many people dislike the rework to Summoner, whereas I love the rework. It feels like I'm playing a Summoner of the previous FF games now more than ever. I was wrong to think any less of any of you, and I apologize. You guys enjoy the Monk, and I'll be over here enjoying the Summoner. Both classes lost fans but gained new ones, although I was a fan of Summoner since SB.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Damn man, I think they made a HUGE mistake putting positionals in this game full stop. Especially 6 on one job. You'll got used to lazy class design and now beg for it, rather than asking for an actual engaging class.

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Positionals have never taken the space of or otherwise precluded other mechanics. In ARR and HW, Monk still had as much mechanical depth as any other melee (and certainly more than ARR DRG) even when disregarding positionals.

Why does DRG feel more fast paced than MNK lel?

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Why does DRG feel more fast paced than MNK lel?

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A more oGCD-crowded opener and ~60s threshold. Outside of that, it's noticeably slower. That's not to say MNK is quick, just that DRG's far from it either. (My other char is a Maiming main -- DRG, then RPR.)

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Originally Posted by Adonan

You know what, you guys go ahead and enjoy the new monk. I was like many of the people in this thread for a while, albeit less belligerent. I still am to an extent, as I probably won't be playing the monk again any time soon. Then I saw the thread for the Summoners changes. It was eye opening to see the similarities between this thread and the Summoner thread. So many people dislike the rework to Summoner, whereas I love the rework. It feels like I'm playing a Summoner of the previous FF games now more than ever. I was wrong to think any less of any of you, and I apologize. You guys enjoy the Monk, and I'll be over here enjoying the Summoner. Both classes lost fans but gained new ones, although I was a fan of Summoner since SB.

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Tbf, getting people's opinions on things will also always be complicated by how much stake they put on a job's (or its core's) potential vs. its present execution. For instance, I think MNK has about C-tier gameplay, but is only a few tiny changes from being A-tier and a couple more from S-tier. That makes it hard to shit on the job, but I can still be a bit dissatisfied with (and all the while defend its new core mechanics). I suspect it'd be the same for SMN and its phases if I played them in depth, as I think we should have more control over their cycles and timing and there should be more to do in each, but there being elemental phases --in itself-- is very much to my liking and perhaps even preferable to DoT-centric gameplay (so long as the former complexity is eventually made up for).

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Me, that guy that has predicted everything and who made the rules SE catered all us mighty casuals out there, is so happy that 4 positionals are finally gone, so i´m able to enjoy MNK! Call me MNK-Master FF14, because i know the only truth and i´m able to see a lot of fun when i play MNK after i finished Warrior, Summoner, Sage...

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Good SE is catering to guys like you, who "are so glad about the changes", that they still don´t give af about maining MNK at all. Really, stop talking.

Monk has been my main job since I started playing ARR some six years ago. Being positional heavy and having to maintain GL stacks were the cross we had to bare but I took pride in it because the dance is what made us unique. Its practically apart of our class identity. I understand it must have been frustrating as hell to try to design and expand on monk over the years. Each expansion felt like rather then expanding on our toolset they were instead trying to lift the burden of GL stacks. Its in that endeavor with EW they threw the baby out with the bathwater.

Frustration aside I was sad to see GL stacks go but having only two positionals like every other melee class leaves monk feeling hollow and homogenized.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Why does DRG feel more fast paced than MNK lel?

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I was thinking the same thing 2 days ago but i got the feeling that maybe i'm too crazy or super mad about MNK now that's why i was thinking this way...
Well, it seem that i'm not alone on the "speed" of MNK ! DRG feel hyper quick !!! Even at lvl80 it's insane.

I repeat myself but MNK should had the same or close to the same treatment than DRG. Not a copy paste ofc but simply in mech wise, MNK should not feel so hollow. Blitz is fun ( Blitz work like GL but with less pressure ) it just feel like the Dev team worked just the strict minimum to get MNK passed, like a 10/20 or 5/10( for them to me it's more a 3/10 lol ) it's safe.

Dragoon is going to feel quicker just due to all the oGCDs it has. It has been said alot that Monk has too few GCDs. You have RoF every 60 seconds, RoW every 90 seconds, Brotherhood every 120 seconds, Perfect Balance, which are used every minute in the ratio of 2-1 (IE. Start with 2, minute 1, use 1, minute 2, use 2, minute 3, use 1 etc.) then the absolute RNG fest that is TFC. So really, you are looking at a slight busy period at 60 seconds, and a more busy period at 120 seconds and...not much else.

Go to DRG, Lance Charge every 60 seconds, Battle Litany every 120, Life Surge every 45 seconds, Spine Shatter Dive every 60 seconds, Dragon Sight every 120 seconds and then High Jump every 30 seconds, which allows Mirage Dive, 2 of which changes Geirskogul to Nastrod after a use, Nastrond having a 10 second cooldown, which then puts you into LotD which also gives you access to Star Diver effectively once a minute and going by a 2.5 second GCD, you get a Wyrmwind Thrust every 25 seconds.

Despite Dragoon having a slow GCD, because it has so many more oGCDs it will feel busier than Monk. Dragoon has more positionals than Monk and it has more oGCDs. It has basically taken what made Monk unique due to no fault of its own. This is all due to the changes made to Monk.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Good SE is catering to guys like you, who "are so glad about the changes", that they still don´t give af about maining MNK at all. Really, stop talking.

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Are you me? Can you talk about me or about how I play the game? No... I level one of each role. What is the problem?
The real problem is people like you, trying to tell players like me I am a problem for you, yet I don't make changes to the game. I tell you what? How about you just ignore my posts then. If the fact I like the changes and you don't triggers you so much, why not just simply scroll on by me.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Are you me? Can you talk about me or about how I play the game? No... I level one of each role. What is the problem?
The real problem is people like you, trying to tell players like me I am a problem for you, yet I don't make changes to the game. I tell you what? How about you just ignore my posts then. If the fact I like the changes and you don't triggers you so much, why not just simply scroll on by me.

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You´re just the perfect example. A guy who came up with multiple threads about MNK complaints especially about positionals. Moaning how useless they´re and how bad their implementation is. (But for some reason you love them on DRG lol.)
Now they´re pretty much gone and you´re soooo hyped about it (claimed by yourself), that you don´t main the class and put MNK somewhere behind other classes for whatever reason. (also claimed by yourself)

So why does SE actually had to get ride of positionals? To cater you and others, who play MNK from 80 to 90 just to never touch it again?! Makes sense...

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Are you me? Can you talk about me or about how I play the game? No... I level one of each role. What is the problem?
The real problem is people like you, trying to tell players like me I am a problem for you, yet I don't make changes to the game. I tell you what? How about you just ignore my posts then. If the fact I like the changes and you don't triggers you so much, why not just simply scroll on by me.

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Navnav....do yourself a favor....just ignore it. I have given up fight with this person, because some people just don't want to be happy. Some people just tend to be very pessimistic for argument sake. I have been on the receiving from this person MANY times. Called a casual, a smooth brain, the main problem, the worst part of what's happening to this game, catering to homogenization, dumbing the game down, etc, etc.

From my point of view. This person would rather MNK be completely exclusive for some sort of self fulfilling entitlement to hold over all the casuals to say, "You will never be as good as me!".

Sad truth is. The changes have already happened, and yet they STILL keep the rose tinted glasses on. I have been told NUMEROUS times to just find a different class to play or just stop trying to make MNK what you think it should be.

I am looking forward for the job from here on out. And I for one am happy MNK is ultimately a compromise. You still have postionals, you still have fast attack speed, you still have high crit.

Some people just don't like change....even if they can't see that shakes things up for the better.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I am looking forward for the job from here on out. And I for one am happy MNK is ultimately a compromise. You still have postionals, you still have fast attack speed, you still have high crit.

Some people just don't like change....even if they can't see that shakes things up for the better.

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It would´ve been a compromiss with 4 positionals left. Not those 2 which are used at the least anyway.

And nobody would complain about Blitz if we still had all positionals left. But they got ride of it for a worse Mudra.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I have been told NUMEROUS times to just find a different class to play

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Yes and you always had the chance to play classes with less positionals and some engaging gameplay. Instead you wanted MNK´s gameplay to cater yourself, just because you like the visuals and not it´s own coregameplay which have been about positionals for years especially in ShB without anything left but positionals.

Me and other old MNK mains can´t just jump on another class with a fast positional gameplay. There is none left. If anything we can play NIN because it´s actually MNK with more depth and oGCD´s.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Me and other old MNK mains can´t just jump on another class with a fast positional gameplay. There is none left. If anything we can play NIN because it´s actually MNK with more depth and oGCD´s.

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Hmm. Well I've got a suggestion then...

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Hmm. Well I've got a suggestion then...

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And why was that not an option for you before the Monk changes?

The vast majority of the complaints come from the fact that too much was taken away. Sure, you wanted positionals removed, we did not. What you do then is take, some away, not all, not loads, just a little and see what the reaction is. I was perfectly fine losing positionals on just Raptor Form just to see how it would go. You then take them away from Opo-opo as well and you haven't just taken away a small number, you have taken away loads.

It is the same with oGCDs. Monk had Shoulder Tackle, Elixir Field and Tornado Kick to help fill in the empty gaps, now it just has the massively inconsistent Forbidden Chakra. That are vast periods in fights where you literally just do your GCD combo. Having something on a 20-30 second cooldown would go a long way to not make the job feel as empty in those downtimes.

This is why there is such a massive backlash from the people who use Monk. Ok, if you want to experiment with some small changes, that is fine, just do not completely neuter the job from the get go. It needs the small changes to know how it should shift and not the massive changes it got.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

If the fact I like the changes and you don't triggers you so much, why not just simply scroll on by me.

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If the fact that many others here don't like the changes triggers you so much, why not simply scroll on by them?

If you don't like getting flak over your opinions, fam, no cap, don't post on a forum.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

If anything we can play NIN because it´s actually MNK with more depth and oGCD´s.

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I can give NIN a recommendation for any ex MNK mains. Been enjoying EW NIN far more than EW MNK. Lots of neat tools and things to do.

Guys you can't disregard MNK issue by "people are never happy", that's not a "strong" mentality here.
You didn't like positionals ? Ok, bring something that balance the lose of oGCD and Positionals, don't come up with "we got blitz"...
I like positionals, i don't care if they goes away BUT again bring something on the table, which they haven't accomplish...

You can't came here like "we started at ShB MNK was good and now it's better" disregarding people who have been playing MNK for years at a realm reborn...
Actually MNK feel lackluster, that's the truth especially for those who have been here before ShB.

I feel like they could add in Assassin to bridge the gap between monk, nin, and drg so everyone could have a class they like.

https://i.imgur.com/ORNT1Va_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

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Originally Posted by meowmaou

I can give NIN a recommendation for any ex MNK mains. Been enjoying EW NIN far more than EW MNK. Lots of neat tools and things to do.

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Haven´t touched it yet, are there even major changes? I personally didn´t enjoy NIN so much in the past. "Just stuck behind the boss" and rotate with your Mudras has been like "MNK without positionals". Since the Mudras are ranged tools, you didn´t even have to think much about uptime or disengages. The animation-stuck on that jumpskill isn´t great at all. It´s not that engaging and while aesthetic has a minor effect to me, i dislike the basic and movement animation too.

No other melee has the feeling of the fast and positional-heavy MNK. DRG is too slow and stucks in his jumps, SAM has everything you want, but even there it´s just "wush wush, midare" and shinten sometimes. Not really fast and engaging at all away from the dashcombo. Haven´t played much RPR yet, but it seems pretty easy and overrated.

MNK with his fast positionals and sometimes heavy button float has been engaging. Especially those TK-BS-TK-BS-TK-BS dance has been great to perform, no matter how easy it was in the end.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

From my point of view. This person would rather MNK be completely exclusive for some sort of self fulfilling entitlement to hold over all the casuals to say, "You will never be as good as me!".

Some people just don't like change....even if they can't see that shakes things up for the better.

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Please don’t get us wrong. We like change, only if it is good. There are just too many flaws with Monk right now as others have already pointed out:
1) lack of offensive oGCD’s
2) lack of Positionals
3) Misaligned buffs
4) Questionable abilities such as RoE & RoW
Many of these flaws would be masked by positionals if they didn’t remove them, but they did… Casuals won’t see these flaws as issues because they never play a class to its full potential. They don’t care about its core gameplay and probably won’t even attempt harder content such as savage/ultimate. Casuals prefer easier rotation over challenges because doing big damage without actual skills makes them feel good. If you compare the current monk with any other melee dps, you will find out how hollow the kit of monk is. It actually feels like a level 60 job. Personally I was very hyped when I saw MB on the live letter. I think the idea of it is good, but in the end SE executed it very poorly. I get that the change has already been made and it will not be reverted in the short term if ever. This is the reason why I don’t understand why people like you who like the change is here deliberately provoking people here who truly loved monk for its positionals and fast pace.

I still don’t understand why SE would cater to more casual players on this specific class. Why monk has to take the blunt while other melee dps’s remain intact? Only SE would know.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Haven´t touched it yet, are there even major changes? I personally didn´t enjoy NIN so much in the past. "Just stuck behind the boss" and rotate with your Mudras has been like "MNK without positionals". Since the Mudras are ranged tools, you didn´t even have to think much about uptime or disengages. The animation-stuck on that jumpskill isn´t great at all. It´s not that engaging and while aesthetic has a minor effect to me, i dislike the basic and movement animation too.

No other melee has the feeling of the fast and positional-heavy MNK. DRG is too slow and stucks in his jumps, SAM has everything you want, but even there it´s just "wush wush, midare" and shinten sometimes. Not really fast and engaging at all away from the dashcombo. Haven´t played much RPR yet, but it seems pretty easy and overrated.

MNK with his fast positionals and sometimes heavy button float has been engaging. Especially those TK-BS-TK-BS-TK-BS dance has been great to perform, no matter how easy it was in the end.

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That jump skill you dislike is gone at high levels now, replaced with the big combo oGCD. In terms of new stuff, the main things are an extra AoE mechanic and Raiton leading into a combo of 2 GCD gapclosers that are lost if you use a different GCD before them. Some people hate it, but I think judging the right timing for them is a lot of fun. It's the closest I've felt to MNK on another DPS job, even if I don't find some of the animations (mainly the idle stances and basic 1-2-3s, those are what make or break a DPS for me most of the time but I've stuck with NIN cuz it's fun, they're the reason I don't really want to play DRG or SAM because they look so dumpy) as nice as MNK's.

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Originally Posted by Atamis

I feel like they could add in Assassin to bridge the gap between monk, nin, and drg so everyone could have a class they like.

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Hell yeah, have a split "promotion" for Rogue like Arcanist has. Either go full weeb into NIN or stay as a dickass thief with Jackie and the gang. I'd love that.

I don't really like double Phoenix Rising in the opener, it feels like an oversight rather than how it was actually designed...

I think you guys think to much into things instead of accepting circumstances.

Why double rising phoenix? Just hold onto that PB until RoF comes off cd. Everything is solved rotation wise. It aint rocket science.... Maybe just maybe, it isn't a design flaw, but rather that a lot of you players are trying so hard to make things work like they used to or you just want things to make snse for you, rather than accepting the sense they absolutely make, but you don't like it.

It might be time to admit that the fact is we are NOT pro gamers, and we are NOT game developers, at least not on the level of who makes this game. So maybe just chill on how oh so much you think is the right way, and just accept you actually don't know much.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I don't really like double Phoenix Rising in the opener, it feels like an oversight rather than how it was actually designed...

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Don´t know if i would even take care about it. And don´t know the exact DPS stats right now, but given to balance it´s only more useful in a raidgroup with a lot of 120s buffs. And if all of them line up in random groups or more casual related statics is questionable.

I´m not saying you shouldn´t give your best as DPS, but as long as you don´t want to run around in farmgroups for a 99 parse, it looks like there is not really a need for a minor gain with an "if the raidgroup..." in it.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Why double rising phoenix? Just hold onto that PB until RoF comes off cd. Everything is solved rotation wise. It aint rocket science.... Maybe just maybe, it isn't a design flaw, but rather that a lot of you players are trying so hard to make things work like they used to or you just want things to make snse for you, rather than accepting the sense they absolutely make, but you don't like it.

It might be time to admit that the fact is we are NOT pro gamers, and we are NOT game developers, at least not on the level of who makes this game. So maybe just chill on how oh so much you think is the right way, and just accept you actually don't know much.

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Do you even have a clue ppl are talking about? Doesn´t look like it and if SE really overseen double phoenix, then a bunch of players are better in math then SE´s entire balance-team.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

I think you guys think to much into things instead of accepting circumstances.

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Said the one who opened multiple threads about MNK and how shitty positionals are. You didn´t, but we´ve to? Selfish much hm?!

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Originally Posted by Navnav

It might be time to admit that the fact is we are NOT pro gamers, and we are NOT game developers, at least not on the level of who makes this game. So maybe just chill on how oh so much you think is the right way, and just accept you actually don't know much.

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We're not on the same level as developers you claim are amateurs? Interesting.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

I mean, you can't have abilities pop off almost two seconds after you hit the button and actually sit there and tell me that this game has been coded well. It is amateur at best.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

I think you guys think to much into things instead of accepting circumstances.

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So says the person who has been incessantly campaigning for the removal of positional requirements rather than accepting circumstances.

Also what people are doing is attempting to create an opener and rotation that allows the job to do its best possible damage. This isn't over thinking things, this is the thing that people who really know a job do every time a new expansion comes out, especially in cases where new job skills massively change the rotation of a job.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

I think you guys think to much into things instead of accepting circumstances.

Why double rising phoenix? Just hold onto that PB until RoF comes off cd. Everything is solved rotation wise. It aint rocket science....

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This dude doesn’t even know how important is an opener to optimising dps. Please stop acting you know better…

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Since the Mudras are ranged tools, you didn´t even have to think much about uptime or disengages.

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Wouldn't this be the opposite, now that Ninjutsu has two charges and is therefore bankable? Outside of saving for TA, you'd want to save them for relative mobility... which amounts to thinking about uptime and disengages.

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

I can't agree with the premise of your argument toward me. Your base counter-example uses cast bars, which are not volatile in the same situations that positionals are and therefore have a different feel to them. If you wanted to compare me liking positionals or not to a mechanic that is exactly the same and ask me about it, that would be fine.

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They're both gameplay factors that oblige preemptive, and often sequenced, movement.