Can we take action against Bard Macro Player yet?

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Originally Posted by KnoxAshworth

Not sure If this has been mentioned before but there is an argument to be made for people who also make their own arrangements and MIDIs and put in the work to make something different or unique. People such as myself, that feel proud of working on an arrangement of a MIDI for days or even weeks, picking the right musical composition to go with it, and sharing it with whoever wants to listen.

Also not sure if OP is trolling or just has nothing better to do than spend 99% of their time practicing music. I suggest picking up an instrument in real life.

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No, I'm not trolling. Yes I do play instrument(s) irl.


I spend almost all of my time doing nothing but practicing music and performing for people. That's literally my only "fun" in FFXIV.

Making midi compositions is a talent in it's own, but performing them via FFXIV through third party software I honestly consider different. You aren't playing songs. You are just being a midi player with input automation.



However, I've literally stopped wanting to play FFXIV... and mainly over this issue. It's no longer fun for me. After the data center visiting being added, the number of people showing up using third party tools to automate their performance has grown so much to the point, all of my friends, who even loved to hear me play music, cannot tolerate it anymore and just straight up muted performance all together, and all because of the same complaint. Too many people using this program and it's annoying because everything comes out jarbled together.


I've even run into a few people who openly harassed me for playing music naturally, because they wanted to gain an audience and not let anyone else play around them. I even patiently waited for them to end, as much as it urks me waiting for a macro to end, to then start playing my turn after their macros are done, and they just boot up another midi and press play regardless of if I'm playing.


This third party software has literally ruined all fun I had in this game, and I feel it's pointless to play for people anymore because it's gotten so bad, no one even has it turned on anymore. So what's the point? I stopped coming around FFXIV as much.

your clearly overreacting. its music. so what if they use a third party program to play their favorite song in a game they like. no one cares if you cant play as well as the third party program because they use it for enjoyment not competition which is what you take it as. and thats not what it was put in the game for. it was put in the game for fun. your complaining is just a whining.

your clearly overreacting. its gathering. so what if they use a third party program to gather their favorite materials in a game they like. no one cares if you cant gather as well as the third party program because they use it for enjoyment not competition which is what you take it as. and that's what it was put in the game for. it was put in the game for fun. your complaining is just whining.

If you think my version is incorrect because it "harms the economy" keep in mind how many players have argued the opposite. To some, those kinds of things existing benefit them in their 'fun' way. So...

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Originally Posted by Olivia0x25

I spend almost all of my time doing nothing but practicing music and performing for people. That's literally my only "fun" in FFXIV.

This third party software has literally ruined all fun I had in this game, and I feel it's pointless to play for people anymore because it's gotten so bad, no one even has it turned on anymore. So what's the point? I stopped coming around FFXIV as much.

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This is going to sound WAY harsher than I intend because, of course, text and internet. I mean this in the best possible way:

1) If the only way for you to enjoy FFXIV is by playing music, I would suggest other options that are cheaper or more oriented towards playing actual music. As people have said, upload yourself playing music to YouTube (even if you are using some kind of avatar rather than your own human body). Music-oriented games, or alternative MMOs like Guildwars 2. At the end of the day, if you are paying your sub and feel you are getting your money's worth, great, but if this is all that gives you value in the game, other games/services do it better.

2) I don't know music-playing etiquette in FFXIV (if there even is), but I have always operated under the assumption that if I come into a group of people listening to someone playing, it is rude to play until the original player says their goodbyes or leaves or very obviously is done. You wouldn't walk up on a crowd in a public park and just start playing guitar because their guitar player is taking a minute to grab a drink or whatever, especially if this crowd was formed by the original player. It's not so much about taking turns as it is finding a spot where no one is playing and just doing a few songs, and hoping a crowd forms.

I have heard a lot of issues over the years, and I have to say, your motives sound unbelievably selfish.

Self entitled.

There are a few roving bands of bards that tour the OCE servers, and to date I HAVE NOT HEARD ONE PERSON kick up a stink that they use a bard player or macros to change costumes.

THEY DONT CARE.

Those visits are a highlight of people's days, word gets sent via world travel that the bards are performing and the Limsa aetheryte gets busy as hell as people zone in to sit and listen.

You want it gone because you feel it "cheapens": your own musical abilities..well lemme be honest, Ill weigh up your 'feelings" against the HUGE social event they are, in one concert the entire plaza was PACKED with players, all of them chilling, sitting back and listening, talking, meeting new people and hugging friends who came to join them.

It was more of a joy for me personally when two people I had not seen in a year suddenly appeared, had not known either of them had left Kujata.

"Theres not a word yet, for old friends who've just met"..I was so happy to see them...and they would not have appeared had that bard group not come...your little complaint negates or outright IGNORES the very real social event they create, the joy they bring to so many.

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This third party software has literally ruined all fun I had in this game

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.......as opposed to you wanting to ruin the fun of a lot of other people?

I cant play to save my life, I have DREAMED of it since I was a child...what was it Major Winchester said in that MASH episode?

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"I have hands that can make a scalpel SING, more than anything in my life I have wanted to play..but I do not have the gift..I can play the notes, but I cannot make the music..you have already known a joy that i will never know as long as I live"

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Bard players cheapen nothing, take nothing away from anyone.

Want to know what makes me sad?

You play the notes..but you dont, or wont, hear the real music all around you

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Originally Posted by Olivia0x25

No, I'm not trolling. Yes I do play instrument(s) irl.


I spend almost all of my time doing nothing but practicing music and performing for people. That's literally my only "fun" in FFXIV.

Making midi compositions is a talent in it's own, but performing them via FFXIV through third party software I honestly consider different. You aren't playing songs. You are just being a midi player with input automation.

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You can report the bardplayer botter because they are using third party software to automate things. But i do not know whether the GMs will do something or not. I also never heard it, that there were bans because of it.


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

You can report the bardplayer botter because they are using third party software to automate things. But i do not know whether the GMs will do something or not. I also never heard it, that there were bans because of it.

Cheers

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They are NOT botting, thank you. A bot works when you arent even there, so wrong.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

They are NOT botting, thank you. A bot works when you arent even there, so wrong.

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Yes they are. They can press play on the software and it AUTOMATICALLY PUTS IN INPUTS given direction by the software. NOT the user. That is, by definition, a "bot". Any sort of automated play being used, that is not directly part of the client software, is the very definition of botting and always has been.

In your other post, Macros to change costumes is PART of the client. You can equip outfits based on macros set within square enix's own client without any need of third party tools. Bard Macro Player is a third party **BOTTING** software that will automate your game inputs to play a pre-established set of directions (the midi) to perform those inputs. That is botting software.


Again, those "traveling bards" ONLY exist by using this botting software to sync each account to play the inputs at a synchronized time, otherwise, IMPOSSIBLE to do in ANY sort of given situation. That IS an unfair advantage because it's NOT possible otherwise.


You are trying to argue that I should be okay with the botting software because it would "ruin fun for others" if it got enforced bans.

What about MY fun? The one who practices more than 8 hours a day only to hear like 9 people around me playing a midi player that would be IMPOSSIBLE to even play those songs because they literally do not know how, or are unwilling to learn, plus there is no way to actually hit those inputs WITHOUT the software. That is an unfair advantage, and BECAUSE of it being so potent in the community of being used, NO one wants to listen to performance anymore because it's annoying to hear someone playing a bunch of garbled up notes because the system was NOT designed to be able to play more than one note at once, but the software can do it so fast, that it sounds like you can.

THAT has ruined fun for me, and many other bards, and people who don't even play. People who USE to like to listen to music, but now find it an annoyance to encounter, turning music off entirely, ruining the fun for absolutely everyone.


I don't think I'm being selfish at all to ask someone to actually sit down and give as much effort as you do raiding, gathering, crafting, and put it into actually learning how to play a song you want to perform by hand rather than turning to third party tools, botting, getting a clear advantage over people who practice playing naturally, AND AS INTENDED WITHIN THE CONSTRAINS OF THE TOS.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

They are NOT botting, thank you. A bot works when you arent even there, so wrong.

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It is a bot, sorry. Even in the description on their website they implicitly admit it:

"********* is an automated music player for playing MIDI songs in FFXIV using the Bard's Performance mode."


Cheers

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Yes they are. They can press play on the software and it AUTOMATICALLY PUTS IN INPUTS given direction by the software. NOT the user. That is, by definition, a "bot". Any sort of automated play being used, that is not directly part of the client software, is the very definition of botting and always has been.

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Then by that criteria every Moog, every Mellotron, every Casio, every Yamaha, every synthesiser ever built is 'botting" since it can be preprogrammed.

A bot functions whether you are there or not, the midi player requires the player to be there at the keyboard. Not the same.

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THAT has ruined fun for me, and many other bards, and people who don't even play

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You sound like Aveyond. What many other bards? Who?

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I don't think I'm being selfish at all to ask someone to actually sit down and give as much effort as you do raiding, gathering, crafting, and put it into actually learning how to play a song you want to perform by hand rather than turning to third party tools, botting, getting a clear advantage over people who practice playing naturally, AND AS INTENDED WITHIN THE CONSTRAINS OF THE TOS.

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Yes, you are. Being able to play music isnt something you can learn easily..or in cases like myself, even at all. You going to host classes on how to read music? You do know you need to be able, read, write and play music?

Are you going to teach people the difference between a treble and a bass clef? How to play an octave? The difference between a major and a minor chord?

Are you actually saying the only people you want playing bard music have to actually BE people who IRL can write and read music?

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NO one wants to listen to performance anymore

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I have five servers in OCE that say otherwise. We had a massive group less than two days ago on Zurvan, I was there, I have also been on several servers in Crystal who gather to listen to bard groups every day as well, I started on Zalera........so what was that again about "no one"?

EDIT:

Years ago I signed into a MUD that was based on McCaffrey's Pern series. I talked about becoming a member of their Harper Hall....and quit two minutes after being told that the only way to be in that Hall was to ( IRL ) write, put down on music paper and play an original song.

Im not kidding.

When i said that like so many i cant actually do that, this person suggested suggested taking classes.

My last words to that person were "And who is going to pay for those lessons? YOU?"..added a few VERY choice words and turned the modem off.

Your insistence that midi player bard groups actually have to IRL be able to read, play and write music, is literally, utterly, and absolutely ridiculous.

Unfortunately OP a honest person has no chance of winning. Your music is always gonna sound like rubbish compared to botters. Me crafting items is always gonna be undercutted by MB bots. Parsers are always gonna have easier time in PF groups. And gposers are always gonna lose to lewd modders. Life be like that sometimes.

"Then by that criteria every Moog, every Mellotron, every Casio.."




1. Square Enix's FFXIV is not a synthesizer. Or a musical instrument. It's an mmorpg.
2. Synthesizers have that function built in, as it was intended to be used that. Its still a midi player. Unless your idea of "perfomance" is pressing play, and it having a song play for you and the people around you.

The software is a bot and CAN function when you are there or not. The botting software only requires the player to press play, initializing the software to send inputs to the client. This "synthesizer functionality" argument has NOTHING to do with FFXIV with players using botting software to automate play, which is botting. Also, anyone could tweak the software to play the next midi in line, making it to where the user could literally go eat dinner or whatever while the botting software just played song after song without ANY INPUTS being given by the player. That's botting.

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"You sound like Aveyond. [B]What many other bards? Who?"




Idk who "Aveyond" is. What many other bards? Me. My friends who are also bards, Strangers, and my friends who no longer have perfomance on because they all complain about the same thing, "Sorry, perfomance is turned off because the macro players are too annoying".

Just because you don't care, doesn't mean we don't exist.

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"Yes, you are. Being able to play music isnt something you can learn easily..."



Umm.. Yes it is. In fact, I don't even know how to read music. I've been producing music for over 8 years and still to this date, would not be able to tell you which note is which on the keyboard, or what music note is what on a music sheet. You do NOT need to know how to read music in order to perform. I do it every single day. I play by ear, or feel.

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"Are you going to teach people ..."



No I'm not. Not only because I'm not qualified to do so, but also because it's not my job to teach someone music. I'm a performer, not a teacher. If you need a textbook example, you can look up "Magician". It's not my job to teach anyone anything. That's for you to do on your own time.

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"Are you actually saying the only people you want playing bard music..."



No. I'm saying I only want bard music to actually be people who take the time to play the music without botting. If I can do it, you can too. It's part of the craft. Just like any other hobby. You sit down and practice it until you're good enough to do what you want.

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"I have five servers in OCE that say otherwise...?"

There is a lot of people who like the bands. There is a lot of people who don't care how it's played. There is a lot of people who just want to hear their favorite song.

There is also a lot of people who hate it. We exist. Just because it doesn't effect you, or it doesn't matter to you, doesn't mean it doesn't matter to the rest of us who actually take a lot of pride into perfecting our craft.

There are literally people in this thread, who agree that they don't like it. I'm sure on your "Five servers and visiting crystal", you've never done a single research to see if people, like me, who don't like botting software for performance, "actually exists" ...

... nor do I expect you to do so...

but also I do expect you not to be oblivious to it because it doesn't effect you in anyway, shape, or form.

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Originally Posted by Olivia0x25

what bothers me is when you pretend you ARE playing songs and acting as if you are so great because you let a third party tool play it for you.

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Yeah I see people like this all the time on the Moomba server.

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what bothers me is when you pretend you ARE playing songs and acting as if you are so great because you let a third party tool play it for you.

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You just described a disc jockey.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

You just described a disc jockey.

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Thank you for responding to the first post that was months ago, rather than what I responded to you today.

i guess your music on sound cloud? since you know you dont have the youtubes

Whether someone is playing a song by hand or replaying a midi file makes no difference to me whatsoever, and in no way does the latter harm me. Since that is the case, people should do as they wish. If playing manually makes someone happy, great. If replaying a midi makes them happy, also great.

Well I have to admit, being mad about midi bard performers in the same thread for over a year at least shows massive amounts of dedication

Damn people really hate when others have fun.

My only stake in this game is that I wish they'd make the interface not suck so bad. (I haven't checked it for a year but presume it's the same) Like, come on, why do I have to CTRL-button or SHIFT-button to raise or lower the octave. Make it a normal-as-you-could-get keybored. (Don't at me, still won't check, don't care enough anymore)

I don't see the real problem whether people use some program to automate their playing or not. As a spectator it makes no difference.
I can assume it can possibly bother the performer, but for those who don't use any tools, why do you care of other people use tools or not?
The assumption is that you enjoy playing your music without using any tools -- this can be done today and you're not forced to use anything other than your own hard-earned skills.

What is the issue then?

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Originally Posted by Ghost_of_Ebina

I don't see the real problem whether people use some program to automate their playing or not. As a spectator it makes no difference.

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This argumentation also fits for things like ACT or raid addons. :)


Cheers

what if i told you…you’re all uninvited noise to me? i don’t care if you started practicing bard performance at the age of 2. if the other stuff sounds like a midi keyboard thrown down a flight of stairs, so do you. it’s audio pollution.

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Originally Posted by san-toki

what if i told you…you’re all uninvited noise to me? i don’t care if you started practicing bard performance at the age of 2. if the other stuff sounds like a midi keyboard thrown down a flight of stairs, so do you. it’s audio pollution.

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system settings > sound > performance

You're welcome buddy!

Pulls out his lute and Megalomaniac intensifies

Sounds like a recognition and jealousy thing, people stealing credit for stuff they didn't do themselves or the occasional huge ego while getting more attention for it big surprise, that's never going to stop, if your in game playing a song created by someone else you're doing the same thing taking credit for learning someone else's music and wanting recognition for it, besides it's a midi player, If you're "musically inclined" nothing is stopping you from either creating your own midi's / cleaning up or editing existing ones and creating your own performances out of it so they don't sound like a "midi keyboard falling down the stairs", It's a tool extension to expand possibilities not just a way of trying to cheat being a bard, You have people that just throw a midi in there and call it a day, but that doesn't necessarily mean no ones putting in any kind of effort to create original stuff or refine anything in any way to make it sound better, just spending less time practicing keystrokes and more time creating, editing or refining the midis.

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Originally Posted by Shaece

Sounds like a recognition and jealousy thing, people stealing credit for stuff they didn't do themselves or the occasional huge ego while getting more attention for it big surprise, that's never going to stop, if your in game playing a song created by someone else you're doing the same thing taking credit for learning someone else's music and wanting recognition for it, besides it's a midi player, If you're "musically inclined" nothing is stopping you from either creating your own midi's / cleaning up or editing existing ones and creating your own performances out of it so they don't sound like a "midi keyboard falling down the stairs", It's a tool extension to expand possibilities not just a way of trying to cheat being a bard, You have people that just throw a midi in there and call it a day, but that doesn't necessarily mean no ones putting in any kind of effort to create original stuff or refine anything in any way to make it sound better, just spending less time practicing keystrokes and more time creating, editing or refining the midis.

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Nothing stopping you, except the rules.

The rules explicitly require you to not play anything copyrighted, AND to not use outside tools.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Nothing stopping you, except the rules.

The rules explicitly require you to not play anything copyrighted, AND to not use outside tools.

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So...why did you necro this?

what if... yall stopped using 3rd party programs??

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Originally Posted by Saranade

what if... yall stopped using 3rd party programs??

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3rd party programs? Never heard of them!

<.<

>.>

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Originally Posted by Saranade

what if... yall stopped using 3rd party programs??

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Exactly please stop using discord etc. cause this 3rd party program gives you an unfair advantage!

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Originally Posted by Renalt

So...why did you necro this?

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https://img.ifunny.co/images/8bd1405...6d3cea62_1.jpg

Also I don’t blame Icount, I blame the guy above with 1 post and no real point.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Nothing stopping you, except the rules.

The rules explicitly require you to not play anything copyrighted, AND to not use outside tools.

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Tbf even if you play copyrighted music, there's no way of them telling unless someone actually records you, the clip goes viral and happens to get Square in trouble with whoever owns the song. Otherwise there's literally no consequence for it because they don't track it themselves, so no one actually really follows those rules. XD

If someone is gonna have rules for something then at least make them realistically enforceable or people will just loophole that without thinking twice.

I just keep performance set to zero in sound settings so I can't hear any bards playing.

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Originally Posted by Saranade

what if... yall stopped using 3rd party programs??

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Tell me how the mod users hurt you.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Tell me how the mod users hurt you.

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People have used Chat Bubbles to auto clear Savage content. This is just fact and totally not a lie I just made up!

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Originally Posted by Renalt

So...why did you necro this?

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I didn't. You have the person who did blocked.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Tbf even if you play copyrighted music, there's no way of them telling unless someone actually records you, the clip goes viral and happens to get Square in trouble with whoever owns the song. Otherwise there's literally no consequence for it because they don't track it themselves, so no one actually really follows those rules. XD

If someone is gonna have rules for something then at least make them realistically enforceable or people will just loophole that without thinking twice.

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You'd murder somebody if you had a 100% chance of never being in trouble?
You just said that the rules don't matter if your not in trouble, we're just quibbling over how far you'll go.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

I didn't. You have the person who did blocked.



You'd murder somebody if you had a 100% chance of never being in trouble?
You just said that the rules don't matter if your not in trouble, we're just quibbling over how far you'll go.

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Well duh. Lots of evil people in the world I would love to kill with zero consequences.

The law seems to be protecting monsters lately.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

You'd murder somebody if you had a 100% chance of never being in trouble?
You just said that the rules don't matter if your not in trouble, we're just quibbling over how far you'll go.

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Isn't this the premiss for "the perfect crime"? That a perfect crime is a crime you'll never be caught?

Regardless, not saying I would commit murder, but there are some people the world would definitely be a better place without.

It's not even a competition. Loads of people (myself included) prefer the manually played stuff because it doesn't sound like MIDI things. Just go into a town and play, people will give you props for putting in loads of hours into learning an instrument in a video game.
On the flip side, if people wanna go the midi route, they're kinda barred from being honest about how they do it because then petty people will report them for it. So of course they have to wink and act like they're sitting there doing it manually. What do you expect?

I don't understand what this conflict is about. If you want to play live music, play it. Make an advertisement, gather in a residential area or on an island and go ahead! No one will interfere with you and your listeners there.

And at the expense of Midi. A few years ago I played midi in LOTRO (it's much better there than in FFXIV through a special format). I was playing music from films by Soviet songwriter. All the listeners were delighted. They asked what kind of music it was and who wrote it. So they got acquainted with the works of Rybnikov, Dunaevsky, Schwartz, Zatsepin, Gladkov, Petrov, Tariverdiev, Dashkevich, Schnittke and many others. And I'm proud of it. But without midi, I wouldn't be able to do that. So it's not always a bad thing.

Sorry for my English.