Frustrating relative lack of LGBT NPCs in this game

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Who he wants to sleep with is irrelevant.

You are more than who you prefer to sleep with people

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Why is sexual attraction focused on here when the requests from some people about increased representation are clearly more about romantic attraction or gender identity?

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Originally Posted by dustdjinn

To begin this is a troll post and people shouldn't be reviving it but your statement made me need to correct a point you seem to misunderstand.

You are boiling down the LGBTQ community to just sex but thats not what they are asking for. Romance is not inherently sexual. Knowing more about a characters likes and interest make them more real. I assume you have no problem with Runar's crush on Yshtola or a focus on the married Chia's on the first or Wedges crush on Tataru, or Thancreds old womanizing ways or the tons of other couples we meet along the way. This argument is only have brought up when the LGTBQ ask for a seat at the table. Gay people can be more openly put into the game and it wouldn't be tokenism, you just don't want it and use that as an excuse.

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I just don't want it? I don't care about Runar and who he likes or Thancreds ways. Again who they want to be with doesn't matter to me. I don't see Thancred as a straight man. I see Thancred as Thancred.
You speak as if the game just highlights PRESUMABLY straight people when it's already been said here most of that I n both sides is left ambiguous. My point is it shouldn't be put in for the sake of putting it in. And again people say the same when folks ask for black characters or POCs as they call em. Stop trying to make enemies here

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Originally Posted by dustdjinn

To begin this is a troll post and people shouldn't be reviving it but your statement made me need to correct a point you seem to misunderstand.

You are boiling down the LGBTQ community to just sex but thats not what they are asking for. Romance is not inherently sexual. Knowing more about a characters likes and interest make them more real. I assume you have no problem with Runar's crush on Yshtola or a focus on the married Chia's on the first or Wedges crush on Tataru, or Thancreds old womanizing ways or the tons of other couples we meet along the way. This argument is only have brought up when the LGTBQ ask for a seat at the table. Gay people can be more openly put into the game and it wouldn't be tokenism, you just don't want it and use that as an excuse.

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Knowing a character's sexual preferences doesn't make them more real, knowing the character as a human being makes them more real such as what they like to eat, what culture are they from, what their favourite hobby is. I don't my boss at work's sexual preferences or my cousins they are very real to the point I dont want to see them. You are correct gay people can be in a game without it being tokenism but no one liked Thancred when he was a womaniser, not many people like Runar because of his crush on Yshtola because it infringes on their fantasy. The more sexuality and sexual preference into a 16+ game the more people dislike it because the majority of people dont care about someone's sexuality and I find it disingenuous that you say the LGBT community is asking to be at the table, a few people of that community are no one elected them as our representatives. It's rather obnoxious for them to be pushing their sexuality on the game at all. Most RPGs just allow you to romance everyone at this no matter the circumstance the only game which doesn't was dragon age and people had a problem with that.

I will also add no one cares about NPCs when people talk about representation they mean main characters, lets not deny it, that's where this convo has always been headed.

I would also appreciate if people stopped using the phrase “sexual preference” instead of sexual orientation or sexuality; “sexual preference” is a historically problematic term that implies a choice aspect to same-gender attraction, and I really wish that straight people would actively avoid it.

As a gay man I really want to know from other gay people why they need this kind of representation. Like what's in it for you? How and why does it make you feel better? I couldn't care less about gay characters in game because nobody can represent myself and my preferences better than me.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

I would also appreciate if people stopped using the phrase “sexual preference” instead of sexual orientation or sexuality; “sexual preference” is a historically problematic term that implies a choice aspect to same-gender attraction, and I really wish that straight people would actively avoid it.

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No, let people talk how they like they give you the respect to the same. If you have an issue be an adult and bear it its not give you a wound.

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

I don't mean to be mean but in some countries that is not the great USA this may make the game banned... please don't do this.

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True plus any LGBQT representation will get instantly deleted by SE for the Chinese version, fake social justice points are worthless.

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Originally Posted by MilitaryVet123

Yeah, but he's WOL-sexual, which means if you play a female character he's no longer LGBT (because in your universe, you were always female).

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Now something I will disagree with the original poster on is that this particular reply is a bad take, since it has bisexual erasure rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by Vryn

Most RPGs just allow you to romance everyone at this no matter the circumstance the only game which doesn't was dragon age and people had a problem with that.

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I kind of like how NPCs had preferences in RPGs like Mass Effect or Dragon Age. I really enjoy the romances in those games actually. It feels a lot more personal, and often times even had an effect on the outcome of your ending in any particular playthrough. Having characters just like anyone really does romance a disservice in RPGs, in my opinion. For example, the Steve Cortez romance is generally considered pretty well done.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

I would also appreciate if people stopped using the phrase “sexual preference” instead of sexual orientation or sexuality; “sexual preference” is a historically problematic term that implies a choice aspect to same-gender attraction, and I really wish that straight people would actively avoid it.

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Thats odd because gay people use that term often in fact in all my years youre the 1st person I've ever seen take issue with it.

End of the day it IS your preference. It's what you like, what you prefer same with anyone else. No disrespect but thats not worth being upset over

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Originally Posted by Vryn

No, let people talk how they like they give you the respect to the same. If you have an issue be an adult and bear it its not give you a wound.

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Referring to my natural attraction toward some people of any gender as a choice or “preference” isn’t being respectful to me.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

I would also appreciate if people stopped using the phrase “sexual preference” instead of sexual orientation or sexuality; “sexual preference” is a historically problematic term that implies a choice aspect to same-gender attraction, and I really wish that straight people would actively avoid it.

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I'm confused by this, because in my head they all mean the exact same thing. Everyone has preferences for literally everything. Some are just a bit broader than others when it comes to their own. I mean no disrespect, but I seriously don't get it.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I kind of like how NPCs had preferences in RPGs like Mass Effect or Dragon Age. I really enjoy the romances in those games actually. It feels a lot more personal, and often times even had an effect on the outcome of your ending in any particular playthrough. Having characters just like anyone really does romance a disservice in RPGs, in my opinion. For example, the Steve Cortez romance is generally considered pretty well done.

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I agree but every time they did it, it was complaints about Biware being exclusionary and it was tiring because instead of congratulating them on a fantastic story and well-written characters were complaining that we didn't get to shag our favourite companion or how a character wasn't gay enough or they didn't act the right way or how language in the story was problematic and could trigger people who have never had a mental condition in their life.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

Referring to my natural attraction toward some people of any gender as a choice or “preference” isn’t being respectful to me.

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Are you actually offended god I hope not.....

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Originally Posted by Vryn

I agree but every time they did it, it was complaints about Biware being exclusionary and it was tiring because instead of congratulating them on a fantastic story and well-written characters were complaining that we didn't get to shag our favourite companion or how a character wasn't gay enough or they didn't act the right way or how language in the story was problematic and could trigger people who have never had a mental condition in their life.

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Writers and developers really shouldn't listen to these people, it halts creativity. A character like Dorian being gay is a defining trait, and is a part of what shaped him into who he is. How he wasn't accepted as who he was. You can still write a good story with diverse characters, but a writer's work shouldn't be stunted just because a few people are going to whine on Twitter or wherever else.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Writers and developers really shouldn't listen to these people, it halts creativity. A character like Dorian being gay is a defining trait, and is a part of what shaped him into who he is. How he wasn't accepted as who he was. You can still write a good story with diverse characters, but a writer's work shouldn't be stunted just because a few people are going to whine on Twitter or wherever else.

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Dorian is a gay character done perfectly imo. Love that guy

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Dorian is a gay character done perfectly imo. Love that guy

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Sooooo you do think its okay to have gay characters?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I just don't want it? I don't care about Runar and who he likes or Thancreds ways. Again who they want to be with doesn't matter to me

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Maybe you don’t personally care, but many people do care about Runar, including pretty much everyone in my diverse free company. I find him to be a super cute character personally, and his obvious romantic attraction toward Y’sthola is also adorable to me.

Comments about Runar aside, representation does matter to many people, even if not to you personally; at least for me, I feel more included when my own player character has more options when romance mechanics are present, which is why I’m very glad that Square Enix later removed the arbitrary sexuality restrictions that were originally in the game’s marriage system, and it makes me happy when some non-playable characters show diverse types of romantic attraction as well. It may not matter to you, but it does to others, so it’s definitely something to consider during game design.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Writers and developers really shouldn't listen to these people, it halts creativity. A character like Dorian being gay is a defining trait, and is a part of what shaped him into who he is. How he wasn't accepted as who he was. You can still write a good story with diverse characters, but a writer's work shouldn't be stunted just because a few people are going to whine on Twitter or wherever else.

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Dorian was a great character and I loved the arc with his father but the problem is these people who value sexuality as their main character trait are then hired at the company and their arc isn't a wizard who is gay it this is a gay wizard and were going to revolve his storyline around the fact that he is gay and oppressed because he is gay and we have to scream from the writer's room that this character is gay to show how good we are as human beings because we want to look progressive and virtues. Then it basically becomes a tick box setting of we need one white character, one black, one gay or lesbian etc. The best storylines are Solas storyline, its Blackwalls, its cullen dealing with PTSD and a drug addiction.

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Originally Posted by forsakee

Are you actually offended god I hope not.....

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I don’t appreciate people referring to me being bi as being a preference rather than a natural part of me; I’m completely serious on that.

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Originally Posted by dustdjinn

Sooooo you do think its okay to have gay characters?

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I can only assume you've purposely ignored my posts up to now. Not once did I say its not ok to have them. I'm saying having for the sake of is pointless. I've yet to see anyone say they want them to help enrich the story. And for good reason. A character being lgbt+ has some nothing for the story of xiv or its characters. I want a quality character no matter their preference or skin color. I don't need to be represented in the media I consume. I represent myself

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Why is it hilarious? I just see someone politely asking for people to be mindful of the language regarding sexual orientation that they use, and a bunch of forum users dogpiling them in response.

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I said, politely, that I don't understand. lol Now here's something else I don't understand. I didn't "dogpile" on them, or treat them unkindly. If they want to explain themselves, I am all ears. They just haven't done a very good job of it so far, but it's not that I don't want to understand. They just need to communicate a bit better. Even with what they said, I still don't get it. Maybe I'm not meant to, which is also fine, but I've got no beef with them at all.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Why is it hilarious? I just see someone politely asking for people to be mindful of the language regarding sexual orientation that they use, and a bunch of forum users dogpiling them in response.

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Because the initial message had no ill intentions about "preference" wanting everyone to adapt to your way of thinking is a sign of being a narcissist.
Once again assuming your an adult don't expect others to cater to you

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I said, politely, that I don't understand. lol Now here's something else I don't understand. I didn't "dogpile" on them, or treat them unkindly. If they want to explain themselves, I am all ears. They just haven't done a very good job of it so far, but it's not that I don't want to understand. They just need to communicate a bit better. Even with what they said, I still don't get it. Maybe I'm not meant to, which is also fine, but I've got no beef with them at all.

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I mean, dogpiling is not something you as an individual does. There are four or five users berating and insulting the poster for the very small request that they made.

If you are honestly confused and don't understand, that's fine. But take a step back and look at how many people have decided to engage this poster with escalating vitriol.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I mean, dogpiling is not something you as an individual does. There are four or five users berating and insulting the poster for the very small request that they made.

If you are honestly confused and don't understand, that's fine. But take a step back and look at how many people have decided to engage this poster with escalating vitriol.

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That's between them and the person in question, really. I want no part of it.

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Originally Posted by Listrella

there's a little detail in the level 80 warrior quest if your character is female, there's a couple of characters who mistakingly think you and a female NPC are romantically involved. now turns out they were mistaken and that isn't actually the case, but it's nice to see that one of them was perfectly fine with having two women marry before they realised their mistake.

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I actually completed the quest the other day on my FemRo Warrior, and was really delighted how they represented it. They even gave me the option to cheer for joy when offered the chance to marry said NPC!

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Originally Posted by forsakee

Because the initial message had no ill intentions about "preference" wanting everyone to adapt to your way of thinking is a sign of being a narcissist.
Once again assuming your an adult don't expect others to cater to you

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I asked politely for my natural romantic attraction to not be called a preference; with all due respect, I don’t see what’s narcissistic about that. I’ve dealt with a lot of hateful rhetoric (both explicit and subtle) in my life, and I wish people would respect that I’m not comfortable with it here either. So can people please not laugh at that, or say things like there being meaner things that they wish they could say toward me but can’t because of the terms of service like at least one commenter did? It’s just really mean-spirited overall.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

I actually completed the quest the other day on my FemRo Warrior, and was really delighted how they represented it. They even gave me the option to cheer for joy when offered the chance to marry said NPC!

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On a lighter note, I did find this overall quest to be really cute. That prompt also lets you mention that you’re already married, which can include a same-gender partner. I love it when the game adds inclusive responses! There’s another example of romance-related prompt options in one of the Foundation quests too as I recall.

If nothing else, the ignore function exists for a reason. The game serves a global audience and includes people from many different cultures, countries and belief systems. The sooner more people realise that agreeing to disagree is a viable option for many things and that not everything needs to be a huge battle, the sooner we might actually see more stability in society in general.

As I've said, I'm gay myself - but honestly, I think it's pretty poor form to drag complicated issues into places where most people just want to log on after a hard day at work and play or talk about a video game that they enjoy.

That isn't me saying that nobody should create threads asking for more representation, either - but by doing so, people are going to be exposed to different opinions. I'm indifferent for the most part. If some NPC's who just happen to be gay are added to the game and it's handled tastefully? Sure, great. Equally, I've played plenty of games with no or little 'representation' and still managed to enjoy them as I don't, personally, feel the need to have it present absolutely everywhere all of the time.

Genuine question why do you care soo much if you feel a game represents you or not? 90% of my favorite games don't have anyone that I'd say represents me and guess what couldn't care less.

I'd like my game to not force others ideals on me also the issue's with other countries/religions, this would just cause more issues/ also not to mention the vast majority of us want to escape real life drama for a couple hours and play a game with friends/community.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I don't think anyone is asking for sloppy makeout sessions between same sex couples to be shoehorned into the game. When I think of representation, I don't think of a big neon sign saying "I'm gay!" over a character's head, I think of things like:

A Garlean solider is laying a wreath of flowers on a grave, when asked by the WoL who it is for, he says "My husband."

Two women NPCs flirting in dialogue bubbles - there's plenty of men and women NPCs flirting out there.

A character tells the WoL they "hope to settle down with a nice man or woman one day". Things like that, the small bits of flavor and storytelling about romance that already get sprinkled in the game, just a little more inclusive than it is now.

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Very well said. There are many examples of NPC's flirting with others of the opposite sex, mentioning their wives, husbands, lovers etc. Would it really be so game breaking and anti-immersive for the odd one to mention their same-sex partners? It just adds a little inclusively that opens the world out a little.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Very well said. There are many examples of NPC's flirting with others of the opposite sex, mentioning their wives, husbands, lovers etc. Would it really be so game breaking and anti-immersive for the odd one to mention their same-sex partners? It just adds a little inclusively that opens the world out a little.

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This already occurs though. There’s a gay couple in the wanderer’s palace questline. There’s bi cat girls at bronze lake. There’s gay guys at the kugane hot springs etc. There’s multiple examples it’s just not enough for people. They want it plastered everywhere.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I can only assume you've purposely ignored my posts up to now. Not once did I say its not ok to have them. I'm saying having for the sake of is pointless. I've yet to see anyone say they want them to help enrich the story. And for good reason. A character being lgbt+ has some nothing for the story of xiv or its characters. I want a quality character no matter their preference or skin color. I don't need to be represented in the media I consume. I represent myself

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So gay characters are fine as long as people don't ask for them and because representation isn't important to you then it also shouldn't matter to anyone? But also don't talk about being gay because it doesn't matter to the story but that same feeling isn't echo'd for straight couples in the game like the manderville's or the leveilleurs whos family life affects the story? Are they less valid because they have a focus on family and their dynamic with each other? Do you see what I mean?

Hetero relationships are everywhere because it's the norm so it almost seems invisible to you. No one wants to take away those relationships because that's apart of life. It would be surreal if people didn't have kids or spouses in game but you don't feel the the LGTBQ deserve the same chance.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

This already occurs though. There’s a gay couple in the wanderer’s palace questline. There’s bi cat girls at bronze lake. There’s gay guys at the kugane hot springs etc. There’s multiple examples it’s just not enough for people. They want it plastered everywhere.

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Oh I did not mean to say it does not already occur. Sorry if thats how it came across. Like I said above, I love how casually the idea is addressed in the Level 80 Warrior quest, and I hope that was the intent. That said, the scales of Nald'thal do very much side with a very hetrosexual viewpoint on things in Eorza, despite the odd dips here and there. To be fair as well, two of the above mentioned come from ARR, and the other I think was more of a Simpson meme (Though I love its inclusion!) I could be completely wrong, but it has been a long while since we have a open LGBTQ+ NPC involved in a quest, for example… although I suppose you could count Sadu there, but that is rather ‘coded’ and not explicitly said. It could also be attributed more to the Dotharl’s view on reincarnation (Hay! A part of the lore that can be/is enhanced by diverse themes!)

Anyway, I am grateful for what they have added, and from what I have read Yoshi-P sounds like an alllie (And I appreciate the continued de-gender locking of outfits). I hope in the future we get more such examples, I did think Endwalker was lacking of any interaction or notion outside of Sadu but I could easily be missing something. Are there more important things that need to be dealt with? Obviously yes (Hello Houseing…) but I still think this is an issue which deserves to be spoken about, and not buried in a ‘Be grateful for what you got’ attitude.

Just to add, I get why we do have so little of such non-traditional interactions compared to other games and MMOs like ESO & SWTOR. The game is creatively created in a place where open acceptance of LGBTQ+ issues is not as common or as well understood. At the same time, I do not think that means we do not have to stay quiet about the idea of more open representation.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Oh I did not mean to say it does not already occur. Sorry if thats how it came across. Like I said above, I love how casually the idea is addressed in the Level 80 Warrior quest, and I hope that was the intent. That said, the scales of Nald'thal do very much side with a very hetrosexual viewpoint on things in Eorza, despite the odd dips here and there. To be fair as well, two of the above mentioned come from ARR, and the other I think was more of a Simpson meme (Though I love its inclusion!) I could be completely wrong, but it has been a long while since we have a open LGBTQ+ NPC involved in a quest, for example… although I suppose you could count Sadu there, but that is rather ‘coded’ and not explicitly said. It could also be attributed more to the Dotharl’s view on reincarnation (Hay! A part of the lore that can be/is enhanced by diverse themes!)

Anyway, I am grateful for what they have added, and from what I have read Yoshi-P sounds like an alllie (And I appreciate the continued de-gender locking of outfits). I hope in the future we get more such examples, I did think Endwalker was lacking of any interaction or notion outside of Sadu but I could easily be missing something. Are there more important things that need to be dealt with? Obviously yes (Hello Houseing…) but I still think this is an issue which deserves to be spoken about, and not buried in a ‘Be grateful for what you got’ attitude.

Just to add, I get why we do have so little of such non-traditional interactions compared to other games and MMOs like ESO & SWTOR. The game is creatively created in a place where open acceptance of LGBTQ+ issues is not as common or as well understood. At the same time, I do not think that means we do not have to stay quiet about the idea of more open representation.

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The point is that's it's already in the game. As another said folks just want it front and center and some of us don't feel it's needed. Treat it like everything else. Let your imagination run wild. I saw no part of Endwalker that'd make sense to "feature" that as relationships weren't really a focus. The end of days was. Men and women can already wear what they want via un gender locked clothing. Idk my mindset is this,
Don't ask for representation. BE that representation

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

The point is that's it's already in the game. As another said folks just want it front and center and some of us don't feel it's needed. Treat it like everything else. Let your imagination run wild. I saw no part of Endwalker that'd make sense to "feature" that as relationships weren't really a focus. The end of days was. Men and women can already wear what they want via un gender locked clothing. Idk my mindset is this,
Don't ask for representation. BE that representation

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You do understand that we got unlocked gendered clothing because we asked them to? By people asking for more representation they ARE in fact being that representation because they chose to speak up.

Also to that one person's claim that "these people will never be happy until its a main story point." It doesn't have to be main story focus BUT if sexuality is so unimportant than it shouldn't be a big deal right?

The inclusion of certain gender or not wont bother me. As long as the lore is well written. I can enjoy characters with good stories and development regardless of their gender.

Lets not forget that even though a NPC couple in game may be FxM it doesn't necessarily mean they are straight either. I'm a pansexual and my fiance is asexual but we happened to end up as a FxM relationship biologically but we identify as nonbinary. I think forcing sexuality on NPCs for the sake of forcing just seems uncomfortable and if it doesn't really fit with the story telling, just feels out of place.

What would this add to your experience to know their sexuality up front. Please clarify. Unless it directly impacts the story or quest in some fashion. It has no place being a forefront issue. I don't have to know what they prefer as a love interest to be told I need to go kill 20 mobs or fetch herbs from a garden.

It's interesting how quickly strawmen are constructed in this thread.

Someone will say "I think a little more LGBT representation would be nice," and they get dozens of replies saying stuff along the lines of, "oh so you want the game to be all about gay stuff now? Oh you want to completely overshadow the narrative with a bunch of shoehorned in gay and lesbian couples whose only personality trait is liking the other sex? (Bi people are never acknowledged) you want Thancred to walk out wearing a 'I LIKE MEN' crop top!?"

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

Why is it always the people who use/identify with a slur like queer who want more representation?

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Post edited as to not distract from my point, which is that people are vastly overinflating and criticizing positions that nobody in this thread has actually advocated.

I'd hardly call the whole Ryne-Gaia debacle a "blink-and-you-miss-it" part. I don't think the devs ever gave an official stance (and rightfully so, imo), but you had tons of people supporting the belief that they were a blossoming couple and that the big rainbow in Eden was meant to be a queer symbol. Regardless if Ryne and Gaia actually have feelings for each other, there's already quite a bit of queer-coded content in the game. You just need to know where to look. I doubt that deliberately pushing even more explicit LGBTQ+ representation in a game that's already pretty darn liberal is going to benefit players, and I'd rather the writers/devs spend time on other areas of the game.