A summary of healer issues

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Originally Posted by Hazama999

Healers... kinda feel like an afterthought, and that makes me sad.

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I think healers IS an afterthought.

SE's been real keen to keep the holy trinity alive, as it's an easy to understand system that everyone knows about. But healers honestly have never really had a good place in it even from the beginning. Healing isn't a full time job. It's part-time. No matter what happens, you don't need healing all the time. It's almost impossible to make it that way unlike the other two main roles.

If it was made into a full time job, then either the damage output would be so high that moment there was a lapse in healing there was a wipe, or the healing output would be so pidlingly small that you'd be forced to constantly be healing to keep everyone alive. The first is a design nightmare, and the latter makes healers feel insignificant. Not to mention that we'd be relegated as the old heal-bots, the fastest way to make healers the #1 in demand role by far due to low supply.

There's a reason why most of the most successful healer designs in games over the years had healing as a secondary function with something else taking the front.

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Originally Posted by Dearche

There's a reason why most of the most successful healer designs in games over the years had healing as a secondary function with something else taking the front.

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Simply rename Healers to "Support" and it becomes infinitely easier to balance.

Tanks are nothing more than DPS with damage mitigation cooldowns

Support becomes nothing more than DPS with damage healing cooldowns and buffing cooldowns.

I have a story. It'll be kinda long, but I'll see if it resonates at all with XIV's forum healer enthusiasts and the relationship we have with the way the development team views healers.

Once there was a tabletop RPG called Pathfinder. Its first edition had been out for a while, and the designers began work on a second. Now, while tabletop RPGs have an infinite amount of creativity inherent in them (as you can homebrew or change rules wherever your group pleases), officially-run games are a different beast. The person running the game has to abide by the base rules in the core book. A part of this includes ingame stores; you can't restrict player access to items that are present in the core rulebook. When players level up, they get points to use on buying items and can buy whatever they want. The point of bringing this up is, if the game designers don't like something about how this works, the normal answer you give the average player of "just change the rules you don't like" doesn't apply. They'd have to design the behavior out of the core rules.

One of the behaviors that the game designers -really- wanted to do away with was the infamous Wand of Cure Light Wounds. It became a staple to buy a few on hitting level 2. Players would grab some wands, then spam healing spells as needed between combat to patch back up and keep going. The initially proposed solution to this was a brand new system for interacting with enchanted items that severely curtailed the number of times you could use a wand in a day. There was a discussion about this among some long-term fans that got really interesting. Summarizing it:

Players didn't decide to start buying these wands out of thin air. They started doing it because it was a logical thing to do. If you stop me from using wands, I'll tell you exactly what I'm going to do. I'm going to town and finding a group of NPC clerics for hire. I won't even ask their names. I'll call them Cumbersome Wand of Cure Light Wounds numbers one through five and pay them to sit outside in a wagon, then spam healing spells on our group between fights. The problem with this solution here is that the game designers are punishing the players for finding a shortcut solution they don't like to the real problem. You know why players are opting to buy healing wands? Because healing gameplay design isn't fun. Outside roleplaying reasons, basically nobody plays this game for the pulse-pounding thrill of loading up their daily slots with Cure spells and playing the health battery pack for the rest of the party between pulls. You don't need a warm body to fill this function; you could basically script it if it were a game we played online. Conveniently, since this entire role can be replaced with a wand, the players can choose classes with more fun and interactive design while not losing the important ability to heal themselves up after a fight. Make clerics fun and attractive to play without reducing their ability to keep the party alive, then you've solved the problem.

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Originally Posted by Dearche

There's a reason why most of the most successful healer designs in games over the years had healing as a secondary function with something else taking the front.

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You know, I'm pretty curious. Mind citing some specific examples here? I don't go perusing the landscape these days as much as I used to.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

You know why players are opting to buy healing wands?.

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Because a wand of Cure Light wounds has 35-50 uses of the spell and costs less than the applicable potion, weighs less than the applicable potion, doesn't consume your spell slots, almost everyone can use it, and it's basically as effective out of combat as a level 20 cleric because of the ways spells in that system cap out.

You don't take Wand of Cure Light Wounds because slotting Cure Light Wounds is boring (Clerics have spontaneous conversion - they always have access to healing spells). You take it because it's extremely efficient healing when out of combat. It's not a question of "Is this fun or not", it's a question of players having access to a resource, and whether the game should be balanced around that. You cannot buy the cleric more spell slots, but you can buy wands, and effectively infinite healing destroys the idea of attrition, which is what makes dungeon crawling in table tops dangerous, and by extension, interesting.

I feel like a lot of the "healers don't heal" issue can be solved by increasing raid damage. Tank busters are trivialized, especially if you have a WAR. Raid-wides don't happen often and are predictable. Lack of add phases spawning with the main boss present. All these are missing in 5.0 savage. It wouldn't solve everything but putting your healers in more situations where the tank will die or a party member needs to be topped off for a mechanic, it would encourage them to heal more.

Maybe they should double down in the healer job gimmicks? cards, lilies, faeries etc. Imagine playing AST and most of your gameplay around healing and manipulating cards by placing them on the field, players, and enemies. Maybe WHM plants lilies on the ground and it eventually grows in to a larger aoe that heals whoever stand in it and damages enemies. SCH could get its tactical abilities faerie utility back, i.e aoe esuna, shadowflare. Maybe have two faeries out at the same time and combine them to make Feo Ul appear. /showerthoughts

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I feel like a lot of the "healers don't heal" issue can be solved by increasing raid damage. Tank busters are trivialized, especially if you have a WAR. Raid-wides don't happen often and are predictable. Lack of add phases spawning with the main boss present. All these are missing in 5.0 savage. It wouldn't solve everything but putting your healers in more situations where the tank will die or a party member needs to be topped off for a mechanic, it would encourage them to heal more.

Maybe they should double down in the healer job gimmicks? cards, lilies, faeries etc. Imagine playing AST and most of your gameplay around healing and manipulating cards by placing them on the field, players, and enemies. Maybe WHM plants lilies on the ground and it eventually grows in to a larger aoe that heals whoever stand in it and damages enemies. SCH could get its tactical abilities faerie utility back, i.e aoe esuna, shadowflare. Maybe have two faeries out at the same time and combine them to make Feo Ul appear. /showerthoughts

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Honestly, just give AST their cards back and add those more dynamic ideas for the other healers as well as some array of buff and maybe even debuff juggling. It's infuriating that the saying goes that healers should only heal, but then DPS can do all sorts of shenanigans. To the point that, as I point out regularly with great bitterness, DNC straight up stole what AST could do. Healers should only heal, but DPS can do whatever they like? Why does it feel so punishing to play a support role in this game?

Bumping thread, was falling asleep again with this boring 1 button dps rotation that makes up 97% of all content in the game. You rarely have to heal for you to have such a boring experience when not healing. My hopeful changes.

Scholar

*Removeable of the animation locked on all fairy commands that was introduced in SHB, and giving us back the ability to control fairy embrace.
*An increased high potency on fae union or a complete rework/redesign of the ability to make it feel impactful and exciting.
*More uses for fae gauge
* An engaging DPS rotation on this class in particular. I can not count how many times I have fallen asleep in content playing healers and the changes to the DPS rotation have only made that worse.
* Give back bane and remove Art of war, or rework ART of war and still give back BANE.
* Give back quickened aetherflow.
* Healer combos, like Lustrate healing twice as much on the second cast or healing procs of some kind that can even be tied to unlock dps skills
* Barrier indicator on the part list for Seraph
* And instant on-demand shield healing ogdc action.
* Rework Crit aldos
* Deploy more than just aldos.

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Originally Posted by BrokentoothMarch

Honestly, just give AST their cards back and add those more dynamic ideas for the other healers as well as some array of buff and maybe even debuff juggling. It's infuriating that the saying goes that healers should only heal, but then DPS can do all sorts of shenanigans. To the point that, as I point out regularly with great bitterness, DNC straight up stole what AST could do. Healers should only heal, but DPS can do whatever they like? Why does it feel so punishing to play a support role in this game?

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With the idea that healers should only heal, I be okay with that if we were required to heal at least 10% of the fight, we barely heal 3% of the time in 99% of the content. Also if players feel that way, respond with TANKs should only tank, they don't need anything besides provoke and their mitigation. I bet you half the people saying that stupid sht about the healers only should heal will go on the defensive.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Because a wand of Cure Light wounds has 35-50 uses of the spell and costs less than the applicable potion, weighs less than the applicable potion, doesn't consume your spell slots, almost everyone can use it, and it's basically as effective out of combat as a level 20 cleric because of the ways spells in that system cap out.

You don't take Wand of Cure Light Wounds because slotting Cure Light Wounds is boring (Clerics have spontaneous conversion - they always have access to healing spells). You take it because it's extremely efficient healing when out of combat. It's not a question of "Is this fun or not", it's a question of players having access to a resource, and whether the game should be balanced around that. You cannot buy the cleric more spell slots, but you can buy wands, and effectively infinite healing destroys the idea of attrition, which is what makes dungeon crawling in table tops dangerous, and by extension, interesting.

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And I think spontaneous conversion is one of the best choices the transition between second and third ed D&D made with regards to cleric design, CoDzilla notwithstanding. If you didn't spend all your slots on healing spells, then your party might die if they need healing. Spontaneous conversion neatly solves this problem, giving clerics something interesting to do while maintaining the access to healing spells. Spamming Cure and nothing else on people is a boring thankless chore for most people. Designing healers that aren't just health batteries works better, and has been tacitly acknowledged by game design across RPGs for decades. Now, XIV's healers are far from that, but I've seen design put less emphasis on interesting downtime activity, and more on dull spam spam spam every expansion. Which I think is the wrong direction.

Off-topic tangent, I also liked the discussion that board had about the dungeon crawler problem of The Final Boss, and how it creates the infamous Narcoleptic Party. Basically, unless you keep the pressure on your party to whittle down their resources, they'll rest and recuperate whenever possible. Outside coming up with reasons to stop the party from sleeping all the time, the problem seems endemic to the genre, and must be consistently designed around since you can't really remove it. So long as RPG convention basically guarantees that the final confrontation in a dungeon will also be the hardest one, players will correctly assume that it'll also likely consume more of their resources than prior encounters. It's the one they're going to *most* want to enter fresh-faced and full of daily abilities/spells/HP.

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Originally Posted by Alex073088

With the idea that healers should only heal, I be okay with that if we were required to heal at least 10% of the fight, we barely heal 3% of the time in 99% of the content. Also if players feel that way, respond with TANKs should only tank, they don't need anything besides provoke and their mitigation. I bet you half the people saying that stupid sht about the healers only should heal will go on the defensive.

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That would also be okay, but sadly neither of these things will happen. Presumably a lot of AST got gutted due to complaints about it having a high barrier to entry. While I harbor no ill will to those who play more casually (I'm not some kind of elite raider myself or whatever), the fact that the intent was to dumb it down implies they won't be attempting to complicate the fights either, instead sticking to very regulated scripts. Which, as players get better and better at learning the scripts, healers become less and less required. What this means is that healers get further pigeonholed into a dull gameplay loop while the actual game continues it's course and becomes easier, which further dullens the healer gameplay loop as damage becomes easier and easier to ignore.

Then punishing the healer demographic with over-homogenizing all of us with just a 1-button DPS and a DoT? I honestly feel like the devs consider us a very late-stage afterthought. Sometimes even healers get balanced/tweaked through what seems like the perspective of a DPS/Tank player. "healer no heal enuff. healer adjust. make healer heal more damage less yes good".

If I see no changes in EW, I'm dropping WHM like a hot rock and going for a DPS, queue times be damned. I already quit for an entire expansion when SB came out and ruined AST. If fixing this is truly in the realm of impossibility, there's no reason to bother with the green DPS role anymore.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I feel like a lot of the "healers don't heal" issue can be solved by increasing raid damage. Tank busters are trivialized, especially if you have a WAR. Raid-wides don't happen often and are predictable. Lack of add phases spawning with the main boss present. All these are missing in 5.0 savage. It wouldn't solve everything but putting your healers in more situations where the tank will die or a party member needs to be topped off for a mechanic, it would encourage them to heal more.

Maybe they should double down in the healer job gimmicks? cards, lilies, faeries etc. Imagine playing AST and most of your gameplay around healing and manipulating cards by placing them on the field, players, and enemies. Maybe WHM plants lilies on the ground and it eventually grows in to a larger aoe that heals whoever stand in it and damages enemies. SCH could get its tactical abilities faerie utility back, i.e aoe esuna, shadowflare. Maybe have two faeries out at the same time and combine them to make Feo Ul appear. /showerthoughts

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Funny thing is, leveling dungeons are tougher than end game ones.

Remember getting chucked in Bardam's Mettle? First time in Holmister Switch having to single pull until you started figuring things out?

Vs

Pagl'than where Bahamut hits like a literal wet noodle. His "Devastating" attacks barely do 20% of players HPs.

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Originally Posted by Imora

Only concern i have with adding new skills is button bloat.

Where the heck am I supposed to put new skills? Looking at endgame play, sch is already full on a controller. It's the healer i want to play but at the same time that many buttons is super daunting.

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I am sorry, but for the health of the game, they should not tune gameplay based on controller standards.

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Originally Posted by Alex073088

I am sorry, but for the health of the game, they should not tune gameplay based on controller standards.

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As long as they allow a console based platform they have to tune to controller standards.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You know, I'm pretty curious. Mind citing some specific examples here? I don't go perusing the landscape these days as much as I used to.

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They're a bit unconventional, but sure.
The first and most obvious is DnD. The healers are all dual purpose roles. Paladin and Cleric are both tank/healer hybrids, and the tanks are just DPS that happen to have high HP pools, since you have to make some sort of concession for rogues. Any other healer is a healer/DPS hybrid as well. Healing exists to either keep people on their feet after a hard turn, or to prevent a death. Both things only come up a handful of times per dungeon, as healing in between fights is a hell of a lot more sensible. It's better to just kill the thing than waste a turn or two undoing the damage the bads just did. One takes a lot more resources than the other, both in spell slots and in turns.

Another is most JRPGs. There's no such thing as a dedicated healer. Everyone has to fight, or else be relegated to the bench. It's always more economical to just kill the bad quickly with more DPS than to be forced to fight longer just because you're able to heal more.

A third is Monster Hunter. Over there, there's no specialized roles. Everyone's a DPS, tank, and self healer. Though some people do take a healer role, they still actively take part in the others as well. They just pull back a bit more often than others to keep others healthy. Maybe this is cheating though.

But Overwatch definitely isn't. At least back when I used to play that game, Lucio was by far the most popular healer. Ana was difficult to play, and Mercy was just plain boring. But Lucio, he could heal passively while doing actually fun stuff. In the end, I think most Mercy players were either forced into that position and played her despite not liking her, or didn't actually want to play a shooter and was content sitting in the back, avoiding interacting with the actual game as much as possible.

Obviously, they're not 100%, as there's always exceptions. Some people enjoy being a healbot. But the scarcity of them in games where it's particularly obvious that's how you're supposed to play is quite telling, especially in the endgame. I know that most beginner healers play that way even in FF, but that style tends to adapt to something more aggressive as the players get used to the role. I almost never see the heal-bot style in FF's endgame, and the reason is that it's a pretty boring style of play unless if the game is designed around it.

Healing is boring as contrary to popular belief, it's not very adaptive. There's not much more you can do than spam one or two buttons until everyone's at max HP or dead. The fact that there's almost no synergy between each of our healing abilities is quite telling. Everyone else gets a rotation, but healers? Just a grab bag of skills that each do their own thing.

I don't know where people get these "controllers are running out of buttons" problem from. I play with one and have quite a number of buttons to spare.

Up to 40-48 easily accessible ones, and an additional 16 for misc stuff. Controllers aren't the handicap, people not fully utilizing their own hotkeys is.

I find World of Warcraft to be a better reference that highlights the "problem" much better.

WoW combat system is faster, damage is much more randomized and much more frequent.

Therefore, the healing that comes to meet the damage must be able to respond in kind:
-Random damage means healers must do triage, making choices on the fly about who to heal with what tool in order to be efficient.
-Frequent damage means healers must stay on their toes, and seldom have the chance to do anything but heal. There is healing downtime in WoW, and so healers are able to throw dots, and deal damage inbetween aswell, but mostly they stay on healing. It also means MP is a much more precious resource.
-Faster damage means healing is a fight of attrition. You will rarely see a party stay at full health for long. Most of the time players stand at around 30seconds from death. Less if they don\\'t take care to not stand in the bad.

And despite all that, despite the fact that you can change your talents to DPS builds for questing without changing your class,
healing classes still have many more buttons for DPS.

Clearly, if you want healers to heal, increase the need to heal, rather than remove DPS abilities.

At this point, just give us a dps rotation, move all healing into ogcd skills, and then add job flair where you actually have to pay attention to the gauges. At least maybe then they could let us have as much fun dpsing like gnb.

I don't think they will ever be able to make healing fun with how the game plays. Any instance not max level strips you of huge utility compared to other classes, plus you barely even need healing anyway at those levels. Raids from primal to Savage are already scripted to the point you just memorize when big damage is coming and pop your ogcds anyway. As someone said, It's definitely weird how healing is designed for randomness yet everything is predictable.

With Scholar, I think at this point they should just remove the old pet system and reorient everything into the faerie gauge. I haven't even bothered with pet actions since Heavensward. For me, the need to classify healers between pure and barrier doesn't matter in the end because I can't interact with it past placing it on someone. The only decent decision I've liked are the tactics skills where you can change galvanize barriers into additional healing. I'm positive there won't be any interesting changes with healer just like the release of GNB where the only saving grace is that at least gnb was fun. This will probably be the same situation with Sage. I guess I'll have a nice looking pomodoro clicker with crafting, gathering, and mahjong at least if healers aren't fun to play with endwalker

hrm can't find the exact pet tax potencies for sch anywhere. So I'm going to do them all as 30% tax rate since it makes nice round numbers as opposed to 1/3 which is what it seems to be. Stay tuned

Secondary update, I got summoner to 60 a couple of days ago on my main, and in order to get that last chunk of exp I did the scholar quests and my friend persuaded me to do crystal tower with him for the last 500k exp

It was the second most soul crushing experience I had after astro this expansion. Gone was my beautiful dots and crowd control. Gone was selene, whose colour I hated but abilities I liked. Eye for an eye, virus and shadowflare, all consigned to the bin.
Its a long time ago now, years ago I got scholar up to level 54 on an alt before deleting the alt. While I stopped because my patience for those moogles was not sufficient to do them a second time, I did remember occasionally dabbling in scholar for a change of pace from WHM and AST.
I could never really get to grips with the healing style of sch, I always ended up fumbling it partly due to the shoddy internet I had with my ps3, and partly because I could never quite pin the timing down on the shields. But when I did it right, when I burned down the boss while eos and selene helped the party, it was brilliant.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

No thanks. Healing is fine the way it is. I say just give all healers an aoe dot for dungeons and add a debuff to their aoe dps skill like whm. Maybe add slow or heavy to gravity and maybe attack down to scholar and move on.

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So...basically you want them to revert the shadowbringers changes. Because that's what we all used to have (besides aoe dot for astro).

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

hrm can't find the exact pet tax potencies for sch anywhere. So I'm going to do them all as 30% tax rate since it makes nice round numbers as opposed to 1/3 which is what it seems to be. Stay tuned

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Hope you haven't already done your math, but at a 520 gear level here are my calculations:

Spammed Physic (400 potency) for an average heal of 20822.65. Then took the average of each of those spells divided by 4 to get the 100 potency average which was 5205.66. Took out all crit values

Did the same for Eos. Embrace is a 150 potency heal. Average across all heals minus crits: 5304.4
Normalized to 100 potency value average: 3536.266667

3536.266667 / 5205.66

.67931 or 67.93%

Adjusted to 100 Potency spells, Eos' heals are ~33% less than ours. This was a small sample but seems to track.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

No thanks. Healing is fine the way it is. I say just give all healers an aoe dot for dungeons and add a debuff to their aoe dps skill like whm. Maybe add slow or heavy to gravity and maybe attack down to scholar and move on.

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What? In what way is healing fine in this game?

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

No thanks. Healing is fine the way it is. I say just give all healers an aoe dot for dungeons and add a debuff to their aoe dps skill like whm. Maybe add slow or heavy to gravity and maybe attack down to scholar and move on.

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Yes please. Healing is not fine the way it is.
If you don't want to DPS as a healer then you should'nt care for more DPS skills to be added.

Adding abilities around healing in the form of offensive utility or damage weaving tools doesn't hurt a "heal only" healer. After all, DPS as a healer is technically "optional". To fulfill your role, you must at least keep people alive during unavoidable damage and mechanics.

On the other hand, removing skills and non-healing abilities hurts the gameplay of those that wish to expand upon their role's capabilities and contribute beyond healing.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

No thanks. Healing is fine the way it is. I say just give all healers an aoe dot for dungeons and add a debuff to their aoe dps skill like whm. Maybe add slow or heavy to gravity and maybe attack down to scholar and move on.

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Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare

I'm having so much fun.

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I guarantee every post will be either healers need to heal or stop dps so much and do your job.

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Who cares? We can't complain when the DPS are horrible at their jobs. You get banned for that because you're using a Scary Parser. Why do we have to lobotomize the healer role just in case the community whines about garbage can tier healing in the duty finder? Sink or swim.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Glare spam is very fun. Also you have that beautiful blood lily Lol. Also, I didn’t say we can’t complain about dps. Can do what you want. All I’m saying is healers don’t need full fledge dps rotations. Obviously square agrees because look at what we have. Not changing my mind about it. If you want dps rotations then go play the dps role. You can’t have it all. Dps can’t heal so why should healers be able to dps just as good as them? Think about it.

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You are aware there's a difference between potency and complexity, yes?

Healers Should Heal Only is not how this game works.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

You are aware there's a difference between potency and complexity, yes?

Healers Should Heal Only is not how this game works.

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I’ve deleted my post. This will go on forever lol. I have my opinions and you guys are free to have yours too. I’ll leave it at that. Healer dps is a sensitive issue to some. I forgot that.

For the record I never said healers should only heal. I main heal and I don’t even do that. As always people take only what they want from others post and then speak on that. I’m done with this subject.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I’ve deleted my post. This will go on forever lol. I have my opinions and you guys are free to have yours too. I’ll leave it at that. Healer dps is a sensitive issue to some. I forgot that.

For the record I never said healers should only heal. I main heal and I don’t even do that. As always people take only what they want from others post and then speak on that. I’m done with this subject.

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Yes yes, complexity is too hard and Sylphies are too brain-dead to handle anything beyond pressing one button a bajillion times. Everyone must play boring healer jobs because spamming one spell is "fun".
Have fun playing Conjurer. *wave*

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare.

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Stone stone stone stone was way better.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Stone stone stone stone was way better.

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Yes, White Mage has always been boring and should definitely stay that way.

if 3 of the tanks (gnb, war and pld) can get rotations, why cant the healers?

honestly I'm more surprised that drg hasn't been wrecked since its the only job of mine in sb or shb that didn't get lobotomised. Perhaps it will in endwalker what with the current job designers determined to make things worse every expansion unless of course, its black mage

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

if 3 of the tanks (gnb, war and pld) can get rotations, why cant the healers?

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That's a fair question.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

honestly I'm more surprised that drg hasn't been wrecked

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As I understand it, one of their job designers mains DRG the way Yoshi P mains BLM.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

if 3 of the tanks (gnb, war and pld) can get rotations, why cant the healers?

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https://i.imgur.com/4d8kbb3.png

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

https://i.imgur.com/4d8kbb3.png

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Hey, 1 2 3 for 80 seconds then 4 4 4 4 4 is an actual rotation!

Hell, it's to the point that most of us healers would kill to get even that complex of a rotation to...well...kill all the stuff we can't heal to death.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

https://i.imgur.com/4d8kbb3.png

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I mean war has even with that way more too do then whm just because you need to use upheaval on cd refresh a buff every 60 too 75 seconds and don’t use nascent chaos in a inner release window. Whm hopes that the boss does his random mechanic close to him or he’s forced to lose 1 to 3 glares when there is no healing too do and he has to move. Good example for that is dia weapon extreme we’re you as whm hope you get the number for the side you are already on or you gonna get bit so bad in the dmg department it’s sad.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

I mean war has even with that way more too do then whm just because you need to use upheaval on cd refresh a buff every 60 too 75 seconds and don’t use nascent chaos in a inner release window. Whm hopes that the boss does his random mechanic close to him or he’s forced to lose 1 to 3 glares when there is no healing too do and he has to move. Good example for that is dia weapon extreme we’re you as whm hope you get the number for the side you are already on or you gonna get bit so bad in the dmg department it’s sad.

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War has a spammed filler combo. (Glare)
War has a maintenance combo (Dia)
War has 1 (2 with IR) ogcds used whenever it's up. (Assize)
War has a steroid phase (POM)
War has a gauge spender (Misery)

Edit: And it pushes a button for gauge to spend it, which I guess is the one thing White Mage doesn't have an answer for.

That's the War's rotation. It is not something to envy.

And just so we curtail this, yes, they (War and Whm) and their peers all need more.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

War has a spammed filler combo. (Glare)
War has a maintenance combo (Dia)
War has 1 (2 with IR) ogcds used whenever it's up. (Assize)
War has a steroid phase (POM)
War has a gauge spender (Misery)

That's the War's rotation. It is not something to envy.

And just so we curtail this, yes, they (War and Whm) and their peers all need more.

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Yes and I can agree with you on all of these things. We’re all other jobs got some need rotation changes war and healers got jack. Well to be fair Drk got also the back hand from Dark Arts to edge spam also making delirium from a unique skill to a inner release clone and also only 1 combo ender.

I agree with most of the points in this thread... unfortunately it's unlikely ever to get read by anyone that really matters.

Some other points I might add are: playing with an alt (tank) it's pretty plain to see that just about every solo duty is designed for any job that's not a healer. You're always given a healer in the group and while that's not always a bad thing, generally speaking you as the WoL are supposed to tank and do damage. Look at the instance in 5.55 as a good example. You're paired with a DPS and a healer... so if you already are a healer, you're lacking in the dps department and you're forced to tank for your buddies, too. I doubt it will ever happen, but it would be nice if they substituted a tank for the extra healer if you're a healer... but I digress... apparently Warriors of Light are not supposed to be healers =/

Do you see Derplander ever being a healer on a trailer? Nope, neither do I. Sure, healing isn't something that usually takes the spotlight most of the time, but in this game it's just downright dull. Though, to be perfectly fair, I don't see Derplander ever being a black mage either and I could even say it's a fair bet he will never be a summoner.

While I hope that the healers will get a much needed overhaul since AST certianly is going to need one with it becoming more on the WHM side of the healing spectrum, I totally expect AST to get majorly screwed over and the other healers mostly left out in the cold. Sage already sounds like it was something thrown together that they had no clear image for just from the interviews they've had about it. So... my hopes for healing in 6.0 are pretty low T_T; I hope I'm wrong... but... something tells me I won't be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

War has a spammed filler combo. (Glare)
War has a maintenance combo (Dia)
War has 1 (2 with IR) ogcds used whenever it's up. (Assize)
War has a steroid phase (POM)
War has a gauge spender (Misery)

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This is completely apples to oranges.

A filler combo isn't the same thing as pressing a single button 12 times.

A maintenance combo isn't the same thing as pressing a button ONCE every 30s.

War's gauge spender isn't comparable at all to the single button press of Misery. You can Misery once every 90s, vs the plethora of times a Warrior can fell cleave in that time frame.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

While I hope that the healers will get a much needed overhaul since AST certianly is going to need one with it becoming more on the WHM side of the healing spectrum, I totally expect AST to get majorly screwed over and the other healers mostly left out in the cold. Sage already sounds like it was something thrown together that they had no clear image for just from the interviews they've had about it. So... my hopes for healing in 6.0 are pretty low T_T; I hope I'm wrong... but... something tells me I won't be.

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My spider sense is telling me they're going to design Sage fairly well and all the SCH's who are fed up with fairy clunkiness (read: Most of them) are switching.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is completely apples to oranges.

A filler combo isn't the same thing as pressing a single button 12 times.

A maintenance combo isn't the same thing as pressing a button ONCE every 30s.

War's gauge spender isn't comparable at all to the single button press of Misery. You can Misery once every 90s, vs the plethora of times a Warrior can fell cleave in that time frame.

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This is true.

The main thing to remember is that buttons are more than their mechanics. Aesthetics matter alot for enjoying a job, and this includes which order you press the buttons. And because of this, pressing WAR DPS buttons are more fun than pressing WHM DPS buttons.

If we have to press a single button for most of the duty it should cause an interaction. Broil, Glare, and Malefic don't proc anything. They don't build any guages either. Malefic is the only one that gives space for movement and weaving and its still boring. If our dps was gonna be simplified to this point they could have given a one button combo so at least the animation changes as we mash away at it. Things can be simple without being obnoxious and healer dps is currently obnoxious. We are the only role that has absolutely no reason to use a training dummy. Something has got to give becuade I distinctly remember they released Scholar with no Energy Drain and they apparently had no clue it was a terrible idea. Clearly no one plays healers at any level beyond surviving in the play testing and we already know most encounters can be done without a healer even being present. They made bare minimum effort with the entire role after years of feedback and just look at Fluid Aura if you want proof.