New Relic weapon quest - are we down to 1 hour content already?

I play multiple jobs so tbh if they made relics far more friendly to grind for additional jobs I don't mind, because I'll be doing it a lot.

Also I get you pay a fee, as do I but uh... maybe take a day off play something else? There's a wealth of games out there atm, I doubt you beat em all. And if you say "But I want to play xiv" okay do older relics if you don't have them all, farm for mounts, fish, gather, craft, there's a ton of stuff to do. And no even if it's content you don't like, it's still content so there are things for you to do. There's more to xiv then just focusing on current content.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

EVERY OTHER RELIC WEAPON QUESTLINE was better than this. EASILY.

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At-least I can read the patch notes easily:

https://i.ibb.co/rwDXjf9/Snip20200416-12.png

I've only got 6 out of the total of 17 Relics so it's definitely been longer than 1 hour of my time.

Just saying.

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Originally Posted by technole

At-least I can read the patch notes easily:

https://i.ibb.co/rwDXjf9/Snip20200416-12.png

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So where is that? Oh wait, you are right, criticism is never okay until the end of an expansion, when its too late to do anything! Its a simple fact that 5.25 was the smallest amount content ever to be released as the start of the relic quest.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

So where is that? Oh wait, you are right, criticism is never okay until the end of an expansion, when its too late to do anything! Its a simple fact that 5.25 was the smallest amount content ever to be released as the start of the relic quest.

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How did any of the HW relic-quest add more content than Save The Queen?

I went over this in my last post, but I'll repeat myself: Both the ARR and even more so the HW-relic questlines did not add new content to play through (the only exception being the Chimera and Hydra trials in ARR). All they did was sent you back into old content by giving you a reason to grind it out again. They took longer to obatin, but not because more content was added - they just sent you back into old content and added a few new items (some of which didnt even get new icons, which they even adressed by saying they didnt had the time for that - its still a joke I use each time I see a unique icon for something small like a beast tribe daily) to be earned with pre-existing currency or through pre-existing means.

Stormblood did an impressive job with Eureka: Anemos - wether you liked it or not: a whole zone is pretty impressive.

But HW added basically nothing in terms of actual content and neither did ARR - specially not over the course of the whole relic-quest. All they did was add a more or less huge grind that made you go back to content you thought you were really done with, sometimes paired with terrible RNG.
FATE-drops, tomestone-items, light farm, crystal sands... - non of that is actual content that got added. Its just another reason to go back into pre-existing content.

Shadowbringers added a new (small) area, a dungeon-like solo-instance, an EX-trial and a small poetics-grind so far - three of these things are unique content (Gangos, Cids Memories, Varis EX), specially developed for the relic-quest.
Heavensward added... a FATE-grind - in pre-existing areas, with pre-existing FATEs. I'm not able to remember and/or find out wether or not the next step was already in Patch 3.15 aswell, but even if thats the case: They might have also added 4 new recipes (sharing the same old crafting mechanics) and 4 items that you also got through pre-existing means. Patch 3.25 then added the next step and all that required was 5 aether Oils - which could be bought for poetics or as reward for a weekly quest that required you to run LotA, ST and WoD (...content from ARR).

Some people seem to confuse the amount of the time they spent obtaining the relic with the amount of content that was actually added - a long grind involving old content and RNG doesnt mean they added a whole lot of content. That you get your relic weapon in about an hour doesnt mean they didnt add a lot of new content, either...

ARR and HW used the relic quest as a way to revive old and dead content instead of actually giving us any new content.
Personally I'll take the Shadowbringers approach with content developed specifically for the relic-quest over a long grind of old content. Even if it means that the first step of the relic isnt keeping me busy for days or weeks.

An earlier step would have been nice, like a 465 weapon with 5 materia slots in the 5.15 patch.

They could have required 500 bicolor gemstones to give people the Eureka experience they crave. Except you wouldn't be able to afk and benefit from the work of others, you could level alts whilst doing your relic, you could fly, you wouldn't be penalized for not being the same level as your friends and you could farm the required currency straight away instead of going through a pointless pseudo leveling grind with a chance to be de-leveled. So I guess that would be much better than Eureka actually.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I've only got 6 out of the total of 17 Relics so it's definitely been longer than 1 hour of my time.

Just saying.

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Just because our poetics are capped on 2k. It's restriction, not a feature.

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Quit jumping to conclusions and wait.

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Only 4 and a half months left till relic patch, welp.

Also, reading all of this made me think that maybe Warlords of Draenor was good expansion for WoW, if I use same excuses that people do here.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Also, reading all of this made me think that maybe Warlords of Draenor was good expansion for WoW, if I use same excuses that people do here.

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If Enix pulled a WoD, the community here would probably argue it was fine. I've never seen a community so firmly against QoL, having things to do or quality. I don't think there's been a single suggestion posted here that people have mostly agreed on (even if the Devs like it and actually implement it later), they'll argue to the death that it's unnecessary, bad, servers will blow up, just wait 6 months, learn to adjust and so on.

Honestly I don't think the patch was that bad in terms of effort put into it, I just think they back themselves into a corner with how they put those resources to use. They pour their time into a new zone, 17 weapon models, a big PvE instance and an EX trial, but they're so afraid to ask anything of us now that they just hand us the rewards at the start, or attach no real reward so we can skip it, and all those resources are wasted.
MMO's thrive on keeping you occupied long term. Next patch is months away after all and old content is not unlimited. It's just not sustainable to pay a team to put countless hours into designing something that lasts your playerbase 45 minutes. It's probably why they had to drop a dungeon, those are a massive resource waste.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

So where is that? Oh wait, you are right, criticism is never okay until the end of an expansion, when its too late to do anything! Its a simple fact that 5.25 was the smallest amount content ever to be released as the start of the relic quest.

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For all your non-stop complaining, you could be progging Shiva Savage right now and get an i505 weapon well before July.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Just because our poetics are capped on 2k. It's restriction, not a feature.
.

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Poetics don't have a maximum cap, you can use your 2k and keep earning.

It's not like the 450 Allegory weekly cap.

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So, with that said, lets look at the first relic steps again and see what they added to the game:

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The first release of the HW and ARR relics released more than 1 step, so your table is off (and more than just a little flawed)

Also, those were on step 4 or 5 by the .25 patch.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

The first release of the HW and ARR relics released more than 1 step, so your table is off (and more than just a little flawed)

Also, those were on step 4 or 5 by the .25 patch.

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They still added nothing to the game in terms of new, playable content, though (with the mentioned exception of Hydra and Chimera)?

All they did - and that was my point - was adding a grind related to already existing, often pretty old content (I mentioned the step that HW added in 3.25: Running the ARR-24-man-raid for 5 weeks if you didnt want to cough up the poetics). All they added were a few items to be earned by means that had been established long before the relic quest (the glorious end of the HW relic sent you back to do Garuda HM again!). Those relic quests were nothing more than a grind in order to revive old content. It generated playtime, but no new content.

If you disagree with this assessment, I'd be curious to hear what actual new, playable content was added for the ARR and HW relics? Other than a few speachbubbles and your next reason to farm old dungeons for poetics/light/random/drops/just to complete the quest.

Arguing we got "less content" because the relic quest was completed faster simply isnt true when the old quest only took longer because they made you repeat old and outdated content.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

They still added nothing to the game in terms of new, playable content, though (with the mentioned exception of Hydra and Chimera)?

All they did - and that was my point - was adding a grind related to already existing, often pretty old content (I mentioned the step that HW added in 3.25: Running the ARR-24-man-raid for 5 weeks if you didnt want to cough up the poetics). All they added were a few items to be earned by means that had been established long before the relic quest (the glorious end of the HW relic sent you back to do Garuda HM again!). Those relic quests were nothing more than a grind in order to revive old content. It generated playtime, but no new content.

If you disagree with this assessment, I'd be curious to hear what actual new, playable content was added for the ARR and HW relics? Other than a few speachbubbles and your next reason to farm old dungeons for poetics/light/random/drops/just to complete the quest.

Arguing we got "less content" because the relic quest was completed faster simply isnt true when the old quest only took longer because they made you repeat old and outdated content.

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If you don't consider grind content, then yes, I guess you are correct.

This relic step clearly used up more dev resources... but on the other hand, it barely adds anything to our daily playtime. Judging in a vacuum its a questionable use of resources. The investment will only bare fruit in later steps.

For the moment its a lot of dev work for an EX trial, roughly an hour of story, and a few incentives to do poetics roulettes... which many people do anyways.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

If you don't consider grind content, then yes, I guess you are correct.

This relic step clearly used up more dev resources... but on the other hand, it barely adds anything to our daily playtime. Judging in a vacuum its a questionable use of resources. The investment will only bare fruit in later steps.

For the moment its a lot of dev work for an EX trial, roughly an hour of story, and a few incentives to do poetics roulettes... which many people do anyways.

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I dont consider a grind content, yes - I would consider a grind an incentive to do content. The relic quests in ARR and HW were basically one huge incentive for us to go through whatever outdated content needed reviving. Sending us back into LotA, ST and WoD didnt mean we got three new 24-man raids that patch, it just meant we got a reason to go back to content that was over a year old at that point.

To me getting some new content, developed specifically for the relic quest (with an actual meaning in regards to the quest - not some flimsey excuse like "You get light from killing lots of things" or "This person will only exchange the stuff you need for this specific item that you can find in this dungeon that you've visited 50 times already but never saw the item in question") is much more preferable and does a relic weapon more justice than just being an excuse to bolster our daily playtime and shorten queues .

But I generally like quality over quantatiy - I would have done my daily grind, had the relic quest required me to run an alliance roulette and collect the daily rewards 10 times (or whatever nonsense they could have come up with only to generate playtime, not to actually add anything meanigful), but it would have felt very... unispired to me and more like "Ah, this is the current content not enough people are queuing for... okay...".
I understand the disapointment when comparing Stormblood and Shadowbringers - I dont understand it in regards to HW and ARR... I'm happy the relic quest has become something of its own - and isnt stuck being a way to make us repeat Wanderers Palace.

I would agree about a grind not being content. I spent an hour in eureka last night and it was fooking awful. Not one crystal dropped.

And one point, I thought "What is the point of this?" All of this for a fancy glamour? It's running around on one big map mindlessly killing things and tapping a little board to make it easier. I dont mind a reasonable gring but some relic steps have been ridiculous and Eureka overall fits that description.

If it means waiting longer for more interesting things to do with the relic over that, I'm all for it (eventhough we know something crazy is coming for ShB relic requirements)

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Originally Posted by DBriggs304

I would agree about a grind not being content. I spent an hour in eureka last night and it was fooking awful. Not one crystal dropped.

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You trying to get a protean crystal for the first quest? If so you need to chain mobs slightly higher than yourself. Also if you're in a party you can't be with people more than 6 levels higher than you for mob kills. That doesn't apply to NM's given you have to level sync those but the drops are based on your level cause you won't get stuff from high level fates if you're low level.

Relative to Anemos if that's where you are you should focus on challenge log. You can solo that easily and a full Eureka challenge log will get you close to level 14. As you level up you can join NM trains for Anemos Crystals and other related NM drops like minions and other items. You'll only get protean crystals from individual mob kills and need to do NM's for Anemos crystal drops.

The fact you can solo mobs easily now and ride a mount at level 1 make the content immensely easier than it was upon release.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

You trying to get a protean crystal for the first quest? If so you need to chain mobs slightly higher than yourself. Also if you're in a party you can't be with people more than 6 levels higher than you for mob kills. That doesn't apply to NM's given you have to level sync those but the drops are based on your level cause you won't get stuff from high level fates if you're low level.

Relative to Anemos if that's where you are you should focus on challenge log. You can solo that easily and a full Eureka challenge log will get you close to level 14. As you level up you can join NM trains for Anemos Crystals and other related NM drops like minions and other items. You'll only get protean crystals from individual mob kills and need to do NM's for Anemos crystal drops.

The fact you can solo mobs easily now and ride a mount at level 1 make the content immensely easier than it was upon release.

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So far, I made it to level 7 but sheesh. I'll stick with it for a while longer to see if it gets better, but that might be one relic my hume & lala wont see :(

Focus on your Challenge log if you're doing it alone there is a ton of experience there. Challenge lot helps a lot even when you're in other zones. People usually do challenge in Anemos because you are level synced and the mobs are easier to locate and there are groups doing them especially if you do it early in the week after reset. Good luck.

ShB is lacking in casual, repeatable battle content. SE seems to have invested a lot of resources into story (which I like!), and crafting & gathering (which I like less....) and perhaps the ARR revamp.

SE did tell us that the first relic step would be quick. However as someone that enjoys having a relaxed grind to fill time between patches it is disappointing to me that there wasn't more.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

ShB is lacking in casual, repeatable battle content. SE seems to have invested a lot of resources into story (which I like!), and crafting & gathering (which I like less....) and perhaps the ARR revamp.

SE did tell us that the first relic step would be quick. However as someone that enjoys having a relaxed grind to fill time between patches it is disappointing to me that there wasn't more.

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What about the fate grinds though, as far as I'm aware, other expansions didn't have such (long) grind at launch of their expansion. I think that may have played a part in descision to make first relic step quick.

Even after you maxed fate level of each zone, you can still decide to grind for materia and make some gil, at least if you're DoW/DoM only. Better ways to make gil for sure but its not completely worthless infinite grinding I'd say.

Don't get me wrong though, I'd much rather had this first relic step be grindy as well.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

What about the fate grinds though, as far as I'm aware, other expansions didn't have such (long) grind at launch of their expansion. I think that may have played a part in descision to make first relic step quick.

Even after you maxed fate level of each zone, you can still decide to grind for materia and make some gil, at least if you're DoW/DoM only. Better ways to make gil for sure but its not completely worthless infinite grinding I'd say.

Don't get me wrong though, I'd much rather had this first relic step be grindy as well.

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Perhaps. I finished maxing the Shared FATE ranks ages ago and grinded out what I wanted from the vendors as they released new stuff, so I want something new.

Meanwhile I think I’m the only one who actually enjoyed how easy this first step was. I hated how grindy the past relics was. ARR’s books made me drop it entirely, I only got to light farming before I dropped it too in HW, I won’t touch eureka with a ten foot pole. So when I heard how easy it was this time, I was actually excited. So after I beat the solo instance and got the tomes, I was happy as hell to get my weapon. Plus it made it easier to get my other lvl80 jobs their weapons.

I honestly wish SE would put out more solo endgame content. I find them far more enjoyable then the raids.

They should make the next step be a solo instance as well but make it long and hard as hell to beat.

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Originally Posted by JisKing98

Meanwhile I think I’m the only one who actually enjoyed how easy this first step was. I hated how grindy the past relics was. ARR’s books made me drop it entirely, I only got to light farming before I dropped it too in HW, I won’t touch eureka with a ten foot pole. So when I heard how easy it was this time, I was actually excited. So after I beat the solo instance and got the tomes, I was happy as hell to get my weapon. Plus it made it easier to get my other lvl80 jobs their weapons.

I honestly wish SE would put out more solo endgame content. I find them far more enjoyable then the raids.

They should make the next step be a solo instance as well but make it long and hard as hell to beat.

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Relic has allways been about the grind, it should never ever be difficult content since we already have trials and raids for that. Also it would lock out just about every casual player if SE followed your suggestion of making it long and hard. Not everybody enjoys bashing their head against the same thing over and over and over.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I understand the disapointment when comparing Stormblood and Shadowbringers - I dont understand it in regards to HW and ARR... I'm happy the relic quest has become something of its own - and isnt stuck being a way to make us repeat Wanderers Palace.

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The disappointment generally stems from ARR and HW giving people a reason to do old content and actually stay active. Were they all good grinds? No. But people aren't asking for a repeat of the book phase but rather an improvement to that formula. Make the grind more enjoyable instead of abandoning it entirely. While yes, you could argue Shadowbringer, attempted a quality over quantity approach. I find that somewhat debatable. The zone and instance are all one and done, so there isn't any lasting appeal there. Which just leaves the EX fight. That's actually a nice addition but otherwise... it's something with virtually no longevity, and no lasting accomplishment. The latter is what I suspect bothers a lot of people. You're essentially handed a relic weapon(s) for doing nothing.

In a game already quite sparse in casual battle content. That rubs people the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

Relic has allways been about the grind, it should never ever be difficult content since we already have trials and raids for that. Also it would lock out just about every casual player if SE followed your suggestion of making it long and hard. Not everybody enjoys bashing their head against the same thing over and over and over.

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Exactly this, if I wanted hard content to get 485 gear I'd just hop into Ruby Weapon. I don't know what the devs are thinking. The savage crowd has been getting a lot of content while the casuals are now down to getting the relic weapon a full year later.

Savage, Ultimate, Unreal primals, now even relics
What's next, tomestones locked behind Baldesion Arsenal world bosses?
The reason a lot of us joined XIV was because of how casual friendly it is, I hope the devs never forget this point.

I know the rejection of the Eureka grind scared them into thinking we hate mindless grind, and we do, but that's because Eureka is a FFXI design slapped into XIV. FFXIV doesn't thrive on zerg-only content, it thrives on progression-based grind, whether that's dungeons or fates that you can't zerg too much. That's what I liked about ARR and HW, the fate grind couldn't really be zergged like you could zerg Eureka world bosses.

Next time just have a variety of fate types that's less about getting 100 people in to the fate and more like parties of 4-8 people doing different fates around the world with 1 or 2 world bosses people join together for from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

Relic has allways been about the grind, it should never ever be difficult content since we already have trials and raids for that. Also it would lock out just about every casual player if SE followed your suggestion of making it long and hard. Not everybody enjoys bashing their head against the same thing over and over and over.

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That’s the thing, I personally hate grinding. Let me do this solo instance that’s long and hard and give me my reward at the end. I wish wholeheartedly that we get rid of grinding but I know 99% of this community will Stan the grinding.

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Originally Posted by JisKing98

That’s the thing, I personally hate grinding. Let me do this solo instance that’s long and hard and give me my reward at the end. I wish wholeheartedly that we get rid of grinding but I know 99% of this community will Stan the grinding.

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If you hate grinding then you are playing the wrong kind of game.

I dunno, they were pretty clear for a long time that the first step would be shorter than usual. As long as the second step is more than an hour long (which it seems will be the case with the recent live letter), then I'm not that worried.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

People need content to sink their teeth into.

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Relic weapon content may have been historically time consuming, it has been pretty shallow. People telling you a bunch of stuff then you do a bunch of stuff. Frankly the introduction story had a lot more depth than previously. Seems they finally understand that people play multiple Jobs and don't need to waist weeks on mindless repetition.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Honestly I don't think the patch was that bad in terms of effort put into it, I just think they back themselves into a corner with how they put those resources to use. They pour their time into a new zone, 17 weapon models, a big PvE instance and an EX trial, but they're so afraid to ask anything of us now that they just hand us the rewards at the start, or attach no real reward so we can skip it, and all those resources are wasted.
MMO's thrive on keeping you occupied long term. Next patch is months away after all and old content is not unlimited. It's just not sustainable to pay a team to put countless hours into designing something that lasts your playerbase 45 minutes. It's probably why they had to drop a dungeon, those are a massive resource waste.

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I still don't see the appeal in being forced to grind something repeatedly.

If you want to spend your time doing old content repeatedly, do it just because you can.

If you don't want to, find something else that you do want to do with your time.

(And no, that's not a "go away and unsub" instruction... you can still be subbed and enjoying the game without needing to spend more time on it than you actually want.)

I'll get my enjoyment from having the weapon and seeing how great it looks on my character, and I'd rather not have to go through hours of content I don't want before I can get it. I realise this feels like "accomplishment" to some people, but it just makes me feel guilty about how much time I'm spending on a videogame without actually enjoying it.

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Originally Posted by JisKing98

That’s the thing, I personally hate grinding. Let me do this solo instance that’s long and hard and give me my reward at the end. I wish wholeheartedly that we get rid of grinding but I know 99% of this community will stand the grinding.

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This is my preference for gaming and rewards. Do content, have the challenge built into the first time you do it, rather than having to run it repeatedly. I realise it's not entirely compatible with RPGs or other games where you level up your character, but there's a balance to be struck with how much time needs to be spent on it specifically. We have so many different things that need levelling here.

If you can't comprehend the reasoning behind the inherent design philosophy of 'grind' and why it is applied to this genre, especially in the current global climate; then ofcourse the discussion is pretty redundant.

There is no collective or associative value in instant gratification. Because achievement itself, is relative to its environment and playerbase. If we accept that most things in this game aren't difficult to achieve, then the only remaining barrier present is time. Without it, a larger part of the significance of ownership or reaching a milestone is lost. Half the value lies in the journey and the work; hence your argument that engaging gameplay trumps grind. Which would be the case, if this were not an MMO. A genre that draws much of its value from itemisation - and the aspiration to achieve something, amongst a sea of peers. There is little comparative achievement in something given easily and universally, with no competitive placement.

Its all well and good that you appreciate your own perspective. But yours is but one.

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

If you can't comprehend the reasoning behind the inherent design philosophy of 'grind' and why it is applied to this genre, especially in the current global climate; then ofcourse the discussion is pretty redundant.

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But still - I don't understand where the appeal is in being made to do something you wouldn't want to do otherwise.

Why is grinding 100 FATEs for your own amusement unbearable, but grinding 100 FATEs to earn your weapon considered an accomplishment?

What makes people say they want to be forced to do something they will not find fun and would rather not do, just to fill in their time?

Please explain because I cannot comprehend it.

There are things in life you do have to work for, because that's the way the real physical world works. But being made to do something repeatedly in a videogame once or ten times or a thousand times is entirely arbitrary.

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

If you can't comprehend the reasoning behind the inherent design philosophy of 'grind' and why it is applied to this genre, especially in the current global climate; then ofcourse the discussion is pretty redundant.

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Grinds and other repetitive content exist to keep people subbed. It is impossible create enough unique content that would keep people playing 40+ hours a week. You can't create an hours worth of content within an hour. You'd be lucky to do it in a week. So they need to make you do it more than once. This is why we have things like daily quests.

Because of the way this game is, with multiple jobs, it becomes repetition within repetition. The quest line isn't to difficult, and presents a decent story. If you have more jobs you have to do a little more work. If you are doing every job it can be quite a grind. I think that's a fair balanced approach and this is only the first step.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

But still - I don't understand where the appeal is in being made to do something you wouldn't want to do otherwise.

Why is grinding 100 FATEs for your own amusement unbearable, but grinding 100 FATEs to earn your weapon considered an accomplishment?

What makes people say they want to be forced to do something they will not find fun and would rather not do, just to fill in their time?

Please explain because I cannot comprehend it.

There are things in life you do have to work for, because that's the way the real physical world works. But being made to do something repeatedly in a videogame once or ten times or a thousand times is entirely arbitrary.

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You basically answered your question. Its a type of work. One you choose to do, because in the end it will pay off. It's a cost-benefit analysis between time invested, enjoyment during that time, and end reward. If there is no (proper) reward, and the content isn't enjoyable, its a chore. If the reward is necessary, but the enjoyment low, its a job. If the time investment is low, then the reward loses much of its perceived value. If the (subjective) balance between the three factors is a positive, you basically have a hobby.

Good grinds are usually balanced in a way where rewards are great, enjoyment of the process is somewhere in the positive side (usually just barely), and the time investment is high.

Its much like how people don't like easy raids. There is no sense of achievement, just free rewards. Its just taxing in a different way.

For an MMO its kind of important to insert time fillers like this, as they cannot provide enough content to maintain a stable subscriber population in the long term otherwise.

Example: I paint Warhammer 40K figures. I hate painting. I'm not doing it for the fun of the process, but the extreme satisfaction when I finish, and they turn out great.

I'll give my further assessment of the current Relic situation.

I already have all of the i485 Disciples of War and Magic Relic weapons in little over two weeks. Simple, yet time consuming. Those poetics drop like candy from roulettes, previous 50/60/70 end-game dungeons, hunt trains, etc. Great way to gear up my alt classes/jobs. However, I didn't appreciate that it invalidated the most of the Ruby Weapons easily with the ease of earning the i485 weapon and having 5 guaranteed open materia slots. This is especially when the healer weapons have high critical hit numbers and may favor players who meld their the tank relic weapons with Direct Hit Materia. I'll be patient and see what happens with the later relic steps.

Onto the secret Extreme trial. Although this trial ain't even close to being one of the harder ones, it still requires competency of following mechanics and the Duty Bar to clear the trial. I enjoyed the fight for earning tank mount wins, decent way to gear alt roles without the weekly lockout, earned gear having 5 open materia slots, and a fun battle overall. However, it wasn't a good idea to lock the dyeable AF4 armor behind this fight because dyeable AF armor was traditionally obtainable through more casual means and quite a bit of players are not ready to deal with plethora of mechanics in this secret EX trial despite its very lenient DPS requirement to beat the Enrage. The question remains are when and how the devs will create a casual method of earning the dyeable AF4 gear down the line.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

You basically answered your question. Its a type of work. One you choose to do, because in the end it will pay off. It's a cost-benefit analysis between time invested, enjoyment during that time, and end reward. If there is no (proper) reward, and the content isn't enjoyable, its a chore. If the reward is necessary, but the enjoyment low, its a job. If the time investment is low, then the reward loses much of its perceived value. If the (subjective) balance between the three factors is a positive, you basically have a hobby.

Good grinds are usually balanced in a way where rewards are great, enjoyment of the process is somewhere in the positive side (usually just barely), and the time investment is high.

Its much like how people don't like easy raids. There is no sense of achievement, just free rewards. Its just taxing in a different way.

For an MMO its kind of important to insert time fillers like this, as they cannot provide enough content to maintain a stable subscriber population in the long term otherwise.

Example: I paint Warhammer 40K figures. I hate painting. I'm not doing it for the fun of the process, but the extreme satisfaction when I finish, and they turn out great.

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You just summed up the big problem I have with the game. The content released is fine, the fights are fun, there is things to do, but the balance between time investment and reward is horrible.

The appeal of a long term grind is in the incentives offered. Eureka was brilliant on that front, since it offered not only a relic weapon but a bunch of minions, emotes, mounts, glamour options and other goodies along the way.

Many of which could be bought and sold on the market board, making for a tidy profit and allowing those who just wanted the bonus items to buy them outright.

I'm hoping Bozja is set up similarly. The game desperately needs something 'meaty' that is relevant for more than just a few weeks.

I can think of a few ideas for what that instant might drop:

• IR dyes: For those that don't dabble in crafting much
• Ivalice inspired minions. Like Wind-up versions of the espers (including XII's version of Zodiark), characters from XII (Fran asideofc)/Tactics and various XII mobs like the clockwork spiders
• Ivalice inspired minions, like those same spiders, gators, Slavens etc.
• For Emotes and Hairstyles, we could do with more curly-haired options,more pigtailed styles (soemthing like Nui's from Kill la Kill perhaps?), some Ivalive-inspired emotes and other things.

It's been a lot longer for me. I have complete the whole invalice quest series, along with the three raids in it. (Still trying to learn Orbonne). Once I'm done with all that, I can finally start the relic-specific content (maybe)..

The long term grind gives people something to do is the point. That is the draw to it for many.

For those playing 10-20hrs a week this game has ample content to keep you occupied. Those playing in the 30-40hr a week time frame that have been playing for years... well yea there simply is not enough to do. That combined with what do you do once you have stuff on farm? Savage = 2hrs, capping tomes = 3hrs, primals are farmed out in 2-3 weeks of a 4month cycle, looking at ~10max hours of content a week. Even crafting/gathering have issues... example have 250mill gil and a large fully furnished house so why play the economy you can buy anything you want. And no playing another game while more content is created is not an acceptable answer despite what Yoshi-P says, that is not how mmos work. You cannot keep communities together when 40-75% of them quit every 6 weeks. That mentality only works for the solo player mentality.

That is where "grindy" content comes in. It gives people something to do while new content is made. I was looking forward to the relic because I could work on it outside raiding/leveling. It was something I could occupy all my time with while we waited on more raid tiers to come out. Grind exist in mmos because no mmo dev can release enough non-grindy content without an unlimited budget and staff size. MMOs either must have grind... or devs need to release enough content to occupy ppls time. So in my eyes SE either needs to hire 500-700 more ppl and churn out 10-20xs the amount extremely casual content they are currently (talking about nearly a whole initial expansion release worth of content per major 4-5 month patch)... or simply add something with a worthwhile reward (top tier endgame equivalent) that takes time to accomplish (Grind). Eureka being centered around fate spam was not good design... fates have never been a good design. But the zone concept and progression speed was good, the content just needed to be better inside it.

The new content was very well designed... but it failed in the sense of keeping people occupied and keeping the playerbase subbed longterm. So in my eyes way to much quality and not enough quantity. It is a bell curve low quality and high quantity and high quality and low quantity both = crap content in the end. 1 Really Sucks to do but keeps you occupied. 1 is really fun to do then you are bored again an hour later.

SE is saying they are releasing a grindier part next... that is their mistake They needed to release both this patch and next patch at the same time preferably at the start of 5.2.