It's past time, Yoshi-P...

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Lotsa words

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Yer quite right matey, about a lotta things. The sad truth is that monsters don't demand enough outta the healers ta make idling not an issue. I was gonna start a new thread 'bout this but I might as well just whinge 'ere.

Healin' is too powerful. It all comes down ta this really. Too many OGCD heals that are too strong, potency across tha board is really high, mana ain't a real issue. It ruins fight design, it ruins tank design, and it's the reason ya have a DPS focus on everythin'.

They ain't gonna change it, mind ya. This shite's about caterin' ta a very...Certain demographic. Don't think it's really an issue - everyone should be able ta enjoy themselves and it don't have ta be in the same game. There are people that legitimately like this system and I wouldn't wanna see that taken from 'em.

It's just hard ta admit when ya really like this game on a lot of other points that it'll never be the way ya wish it was.

Actually, the fact that healers can do some damage in this game is the reason why for the first time in over 10 years of MMOs I finally found healers to be enjoyable.

You see... In other games when I played healer I felt like just an accessorie. When running a dungeon I had to pray to the gods so that the tank was not one of those guys who are scared of seeing their own HP drop bellow 90%, or the dps was not fighting with the tank on the dps meters.

But here? I feel like a god in dgs, is the tank scared of big pulls? NP, drop some hots on him and keep spamming my damage skills. Does the tank want to pull big? Better, I focus heal on him and drop some aoe here and there. Do dps guys suck? I can compensate for that as well. Like... really, healers are just so versatile and enjoyable in this game with how much damage they can pull off while keeping the group alive, I really don't get why people want that to be gone.

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Originally Posted by Nezia

Actually, the fact that healers can do some damage in this game is the reason why for the first time in over 10 years of MMOs I finally found healers to be enjoyable.

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Same here! Although I also enjoyed playing SCH in FFXI with healing and buffing and dotting. :)

Also, to make it clear, I do understand that some people don't enjoy this style of tanks or healers (or BRDs or SMNs or whatever!). And I do understand that it sucks, especially if you'd like to play the game but none of the jobs feel right for you as they are. But in the end, I just think that if you pick a job and decide to join team content with it, you should do your best to play that job as well as possible in that group. I have endless tolerance if you have any true obstacles that prevent you from performing very well or even playing it right, but what I don't have understanding for is choosing to be less helpful to your team than you could, for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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In all honesty, the only thought I have would be to dabble with CC again much like what we had in the ARR Betas, it was the norm to CC everything due to trash packs being larger and hitting far harder relative to how less geared people were. Juggling a bunch of Repose timers makes it much harder to go nuts with the dps!
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Originally Posted by Stanelis

The issue is mostly that FFXIV's jobs, roles and content are designed to be far too "simple" on a macro design standpoint. Basically the only way you're interacting with monsters is by damaging them while avoiding damage via movements. In serious content there are no coherent use of interrupts, crowd controls (even though those aspects were used in 2.0) or content designed to measure the ability of a tank to get asap the aggro of mobs and to hold it (such as what was expected of tank on twintania on T5 with the snakes).

Therefore, as the tanking jobs (and to a lesser extent the healing jobs, as the healing role is little more than buffing and healing people through direct and indirect heals, aside from DPS) and the tanking role is so simple, SE had to find a way to insuflate artificial difficulty to the roles (just as artificial difficulty is added to content through DPS checks), and that artificial difficulty is the requirement to DPS for healers and tank (that is intended to mask the flaws of the current game design).

Bottom line is you cannot expect a change in the current tanking and healing design unless SE decides to overhaul its game design, but for some reason I don't really see that happening anytime soon.

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With the removal of damage on CC abilities, it's possible for the dev team to make CC a more integral part of content design.

Since, without damage on the CC abilities, dps players won't be spamming them for the dps increase, and thus the mobs are much less likely to have become immune to CC.

As a healer, I like juggling tasks. I'm not one of those healers that focus too much on DPSing and not enough on healing, nor am I the healer that over-heals. If I, my tank, and my MP can handle it, I will help with DPSing and enjoy it (because I like multitasking). If I/my MP, or my tank can't handle that kind of juggling, then I focus solely on healing and maybe slipping a dot now and then when I can.

I haven't been getting commendations as frequently lately and maybe it has to do with the DPS race (or maybe not), but I haven't been getting harassed about doing what I do either. If you have, then you've been placed with some crappy parties, and that's a shame. I've been playing this game since ARR came out (off and on and through an older avatar), and have yet to come by that harassment as healer, tank, or DPS. However, I've been hearing about it on the forums. Could it have anything to do with your server and/or whom you're playing with?

So. I do my Roulette's every single day and I have -NEVER- seen anyone complain about a tank or healer not DPSing enough.

I feel like this is an imaginary problem people are using just so they have something to complain about.

I'm not very skilled yet when it comes to optimizing healer dps (kind of a chicken in that regard) but even I can see the ebb and flow of incoming dmg and find spots where I can top off the tank and spend some time helping kill. It all comes down to what a player is comfortable with and the best way to help your healer (or tank) feel okay with putting out more damage is to create the situations for them. Or point it out in the aftermath of a pull, which I try to do now and then with pre-mades cause let's face it, DF has lots of chips on many shoulders

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

So. I do my Roulette's every single day and I have -NEVER- seen anyone complain about a tank or healer not DPSing enough.

I feel like this is an imaginary problem people are using just so they have something to complain about.

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Given how they're so defensive...

I had a WHM spamming cure on a full health tank, and when I mentioned it was a waste of mp to keep doing that, they told me to "shove my dps elitist tongue somewhere else."

I didn't even say to dps, just to not do 99% overheal because the tank is in no danger.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Given how they're so defensive...

I had a WHM spamming cure on a full health tank, and when I mentioned it was a waste of mp to keep doing that, they told me to "shove my dps elitist tongue somewhere else."

I didn't even say to dps, just to not do 99% overheal because the tank is in no danger.

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How dare you give constructive advice to help someone? Gosh. The game would be a much better place if people would just stop trying to help others.

(joking sarcasm....don't lynch me)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Holy -> (Swiftcast) -> Aero III -> (Assize) (Presence of Mind) -> Stone IV spam -> Cure II -> Divine Bension -> Tetragrammaton

I can also intentionally allow a tank's HP to plummet and use Benediction but the above will always be available for every pull. Either you had a poor WHM or the tank wasn't using their CDs efficiently. In the latter case, my job isn't to compensate for your deficiencies.

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Thanks for the rotation, Bourne!

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Originally Posted by Tridus

It's called the Dunning–Kruger effect. Accurate self-evaluation requires a certain amount of skill and knowledge in the thing you're trying to evaluate. That is: you have to know a certain amount about healing to be able to evaluate how good a healer you are.

People who lack that base knowledge have no way to assess their own skills accurately, and usually mistakenly assume they are far more skilled/knowledgeable than they truly are. Thus, they honestly believe they're really good healers and that they know what they're talking about. This applies across everything humans do, and all of us are susceptible to it. It's a skill in itself to have the self-awareness to realize that you don't know anything and that your self-evaluations are wrong (hence philosophical quotes like "The only thing I know, is that I know nothing").

Or the colloquial: "You don't know what you don't know."

(Interestingly, competent people were found in the same studies to underestimate their own abilities. That leads to a situation where they don't understand that things are easy for them because they're highly skilled/knowledgeable, and instead think that those things must be easy for everyone.)

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I like to think I know a little bit about healing but there’s new stuff all the time. Makes me wonder if I’ll be decent when I reach 70.

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Originally Posted by Miste

How dare you give constructive advice to help someone? Gosh. The game would be a much better place if people would just stop trying to help others.

(joking sarcasm....don't lynch me)

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LYNCH! LYNCH!

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Makes me wonder if I’ll be decent when I reach 70.

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I know of someone, a healer "main" may i add, who mentioned these things:

• "Prescence of Mind is only for slow healers "
• "Lightspeed is Useless "
• "Whitemages are soooo easy and i need a challenge "
• "I refuse to play with WhiteMages, I only play in Diurnal Sect(Astrologian) "

This person who, as you may have guessed 'mains' Astrologian, has somehow gotten basically carried through Deltascape V4(Savage)//aka the current endgame i guess// without touching very useful abilities in their kit, such as; Largesse/Collective Unconcious/Lightspeed/Sleeve Draw in the respective encounter- and uses lucid dreaming maybe once in the entire fight. I forgot to mention they are also a 'i only heal' kind of person.

I honestly think you are far better than this person already.

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

I know of someone, a healer "main" may i add, who mentioned these things:

• "Prescence of Mind is only for slow healers "
• "Lightspeed is Useless "
• "Whitemages are soooo easy and i need a challenge "
• "I refuse to play with WhiteMages, I only play in Diurnal Sect(Astrologian) "

This person who, as you may have guessed 'mains' Astrologian, has somehow gotten basically carried through Deltascape V4(Savage)//aka the current endgame i guess// without touching very useful abilities in their kit, such as; Largesse/Collective Unconcious/Lightspeed/Sleeve Draw in the respective encounter- and uses lucid dreaming maybe once in the entire fight. I forgot to mention they are also a 'i only heal' kind of person.

I honestly think you are far better than this person already.

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There is an irony there. The main reason most AST barely touch Lightspeed, using it only when desperately needed, is that it cuts our DPS significantly. A drawback that doesn't effect a healer that doesn't DPS. >.<

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

• "Prescence of Mind is only for slow healers "
• "Lightspeed is Useless "
• "Whitemages are soooo easy and i need a challenge "
• "I refuse to play with WhiteMages, I only play in Diurnal Sect(Astrologian) "

This person who, as you may have guessed 'mains' Astrologian, has somehow gotten basically carried through Deltascape V4(Savage)//aka the current endgame i guess// without touching very useful abilities in their kit, such as; Largesse/Collective Unconcious/Lightspeed/Sleeve Draw in the respective encounter- and uses lucid dreaming maybe once in the entire fight. I forgot to mention they are also a 'i only heal' kind of person.

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As an AST/WHM main......this hurts my soul. The pain.....they even cleared this tier? I need to AFK long time, eat some cheesecake, and have an existential crisis now.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

What I said is more like "and how about you, DPS that refuses to help or even get out of the crap?" and "why aren't the bad DPS being also called?" than what you think I said. Are you one of those DPS that refuses to help? No? You shouldn't be so mad, I'm not talking about you. But if you're one of those DPS and don't want to admit it, you should start to think what YOU are bringing to the party before point your finger at Tanks or Healers. Or you can just continue on this drama and enjoy the queue.

Wich one are you? Your conscience will tell. I can't respond that because I can't remember to be on the same party as you and I don't know how do you play. About my play style, my conscience is clear. I bring the best judgment I can make either to keep everyone alive as to make the most damage I can (including when begin to cast what).

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1. "DPS that refuses to help or even get out of the crap" are almost non-existant. Besides "DPS that refuses to help" can mean everything and nothing.
2. The amount of other stuff a DPS can do to "help" is extremely small compared to the amount of DPS a healer or a tank can bring.
3. This thread is not about "bad" players. A bad player can be someone who tries hard but who won't succeed for some reasons (bad reflexes, bad memory, bad coordination, bad muscle memory, being new to the fight...).
4. It's way more tricky (and risky) to call out a DPS on his/her performances for very obvious reasons.

I'll reiterate my point, since you completly missed it: no matter what role you play, you should always try to be as active as you can while trying to reduce useless stuff like overhealing and overaggro.
That's it. Your whataboutism regarding DPS not getting caught as much as healers and tanks has absolutly no impact on my point. None.

As for the rest of your post, it's completly irrelevant. You are basically asking me if I'm a hypocrite. I'm not. I have principles, and not being a piece of crap is one of them. Thanks for asking.

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

I know of someone, a healer "main" may i add, who mentioned these things:

• "Prescence of Mind is only for slow healers "
• "Lightspeed is Useless "
• "Whitemages are soooo easy and i need a challenge "
• "I refuse to play with WhiteMages, I only play in Diurnal Sect(Astrologian) "

This person who, as you may have guessed 'mains' Astrologian, has somehow gotten basically carried through Deltascape V4(Savage)//aka the current endgame i guess// without touching very useful abilities in their kit, such as; Largesse/Collective Unconcious/Lightspeed/Sleeve Draw in the respective encounter- and uses lucid dreaming maybe once in the entire fight. I forgot to mention they are also a 'i only heal' kind of person.

I honestly think you are far better than this person already.

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Thanks! Although, admittedly, the bar your friend set is pretty low. *chuckle*

I just worry what healing on a white mage will be like at 70 and if I'll be able to do all the things I need to do to be a great healer when I get there. Stuff like Tridus, Bourne, and Miste do all the time.

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Originally Posted by Miste

As an AST/WHM main......this hurts my soul. The pain.....they even cleared this tier? I need to AFK long time, eat some cheesecake, and have an existential crisis now.

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Cheesecake?!! May I join you in your existential crisis?

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Originally Posted by Miste

As an AST/WHM main......this hurts my soul. The pain.....they even cleared this tier? I need to AFK long time, eat some cheesecake, and have an existential crisis now.

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I'm weeping for their godly co-healer and any magic DPS that had to pick up their slack... Those poor brave souls will one day find respite. One day... :(

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Originally Posted by Enla

I'm weeping for their godly co-healer and any magic DPS that had to pick up their slack... Those poor brave souls will one day find respite. One day... :(

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At least they aren't taking that healer through Ultimate Coil....

Right?

(^_^; )

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I like to think I know a little bit about healing but there’s new stuff all the time. Makes me wonder if I’ll be decent when I reach 70.

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If that's the attitude you approach it with, then the answer is "probably"! People who go out trying to learn more and are open to improvement almost always end up doing very well. :)

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Cheesecake?!! May I join you in your existential crisis?

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For shure, we shall have a dual existential crisis featuring much cheesecake!

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Originally Posted by Enla

I'm weeping for their godly co-healer and any magic DPS that had to pick up their slack... Those poor brave souls will one day find respite. One day... :(

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Yes....I hold a solemn vigil for their mental fortitude /pray

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

At least they aren't taking that healer through Ultimate Coil....

Right?

(^_^; )

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Another day....and yet needing more cheesecake to contemplate unnatural disasters such as this occurrence....

Usually when someone tells me to do something a certain way, I ask them what they had in mind, because I usually don't know. If they advise, I try it their way. If they play it off as, "Omg, you're such a noob," I leave the party instantly.

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Originally Posted by Miste

For shure, we shall have a dual existential crisis featuring much cheesecake!

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Hooray! Thank you, much obliged.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Yes....I hold a solemn vigil for their mental fortitude /pray

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So shall we all. May the Twelve bless our unfortunate sisters and brothers paired with those who pretend to be healers but are not. /em lights a candle

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Originally Posted by Miste

Another day....and yet needing more cheesecake to contemplate unnatural disasters such as this occurrence....

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More cheesecake!

At this rate we will have no room for the turkey and stuffing tomorrow. /laugh

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

At this rate we will have no room for the turkey and stuffing tomorrow. /laugh

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Being Canadian I had my turkeh last month, but I shall covert mission across the border to steal some more with you xD

See, I'm lucky. An American that married a Canadian. I have a legitimate excuse to double-up on turkey days. ;-)

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Originally Posted by Xerek

See, I'm lucky. An American that married a Canadian. I have a legitimate excuse to double-up on turkey days. ;-)

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My long time boyfriend is American so I have this excuse as well xD

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Originally Posted by Miste

My long time boyfriend is American so I have this excuse as well xD

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You both are incredibly lucky.

Meanwhile my birthday takes place 2 days after Christmas so they're melted into each other ;;

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Originally Posted by Miste

Being Canadian I had my turkeh last month, but I shall covert mission across the border to steal some more with you xD

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Hooray! I really wish you could. It's just me, my spouse, and the five cats this year, so there will be plenty of turkey, stuffing, and cranberry sauce to go around.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You both are incredibly lucky.

Meanwhile my birthday takes place 2 days after Christmas so they're melted into each other ;;

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Awww, my brother's b-day is 3 days after Christmas. We made a big effort not to blend them too much; however, when you have celebrations close together there is always a little bleeding between the two.

It's the same thing with Halloween, my birthday, and our anniversary. We end up celebrating all thru October. :D

It's difficult. My son's birthday is ten days before Christmas. As a result, our tree doesn't go up until the 16th. It just...stays up longer after Christmas. ^.^

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You both are incredibly lucky.

Meanwhile my birthday takes place 2 days after Christmas so they're melted into each other ;;

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We share a birthday!

I too despise getting birthmased. It's the worst.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

We share a birthday!

I too despise getting birthmased. It's the worst.

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I'm a late January lad. So I manage to avoid it for the most part due to the timescales involved. But I do tend to get a bigger haul at Christmas than my birthday because of the aforementioned timescales.