Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

It is stupid that they decided to get rid of damage buff for the class, I agree, but it made sense in the greater role pool to get rid of Raging Strikes specifically, since RDM now has embolden for itself and the party. This should have translated into ok BLM needs its own damage up ability, but instead they pretended like it was balanced and gave it nothing.

Regardless of all this, this is the Raise discussion thread, and I would STILL stand by BLM getting a Raise (off-GCD 180s recast ability) that is suited to its lore for the sake of role balance. Not having any access to Raise is just another reason why groups, especially PUG groups, would shy away from taking BLM over SMN/RDM particularly in progression, and that's exactly what we want to avoid. Sorry to be a broken record yet again but the class does not need to be a rez dispenser it just needs access to the ability as an option.

I see your point Llugen but at this point, I think that this game has too many classes that can rez right now, especially with RDM capable of tossing rezzes as much as their MP can take, and with healers having the easiest time to manage MP in the game's history, and it's gonna only get worse as gear provides more piety.
SMN losing the hefty MP draining rotation thanks to Ruin III only made it easier for them to rez, and Shadow Flare being instant cast made Swiftcast used less unless you're trying to heavily optimise.

I think what you mean to say is that the game has exactly the wrong number of classes that have raise right now, which is the point of this OP.



Either the caster role should all have access to it, or none of the casters should. This is the entire problem. So to spell it out, the number should either be six (all disciples of magic) or it should be three (all healers only), whereas right now the number is five.

Franjkly I honestly doubt that SE really valued raising correctly and that's why we are at this point, they gave it RDM because class fantasy and SMN has access to it because healers has to have it.
If I recall correctly they dissed the point of chain ress and vercure that ppl made by saying that while true the dps loss would be severe and whilw this is somewhat true they seems to me that they did not consider the effect of it eon prog enough.
At this rate they might just follow blizzard's actions and limit it in some way or they might do the right thing and just make raise a role skill for both healers and casters (same reasoning why esuna, protect and rampart have become role skills)

Raise is important for RDM from a lore perspective, less so for a SMN. That being said the answer is to improve on what BLM offers to groups rather than take away from what the others offer. Some kind of unique ability provided by them such as their ward skill applying to others in the group, or sheer higher damage numbers to balance their lack of support and mobility.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Not having any access to Raise is just another reason why groups, especially PUG groups, would shy away from taking BLM over SMN/RDM particularly in progression, and that's exactly what we want to avoid. Sorry to be a broken record yet again but the class does not need to be a rez dispenser it just needs access to the ability as an option.

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This is not true. The main reason that groups request SMN is that since their buff the damage they bring and the utility they offer makes them highly desirable. You could take Ressurection away from SMN and they would still be picked because of everything else they can do. As for RDM having Cure/Rez is part of their utility, removing them would only leave the mediocre Embolden, which really only benefits melee allies, limiting party compositions to a degree.

BLM is currently bringing meh damage and practically no party utility. No amount of giving them a Rez spell will suddenly make them a must pick for groups because they are still being out matched in everything else. Look at SAM, it doesn't bring much to a party but the damage it can dish out makes it stand out from the other melee DPS.

The fact that they have Raise means that taking a SMN even in prog is more acceptable than taking a BLM, though, and that is significant. If they didn't have it, it would make the most sense to take RDM even despite SMN's increased damage. It has the option to raise even if it doesn't need to do so.

The same, obviously, cannot be said about BLM. This is a dilemma. In a MMO, lore must give way to balance, so rather than complain that BLM has no business having raise because it's "white magic", let's figure out how to make a raise skill look/function like black magic.


To conclude, there is a multitude of reasons not to take BLM, and access to raise is one of them, regardless of how much damage it does. Highest of all of course is that the class is pretty trash to progress on, or at the very least, it makes MUCH more sense to progress on RDM and now also SMN. This leaves BLM mains like myself feeling shitty about playing our main job in groups, and quite frankly, I am sick of my class being so far out of favor on this front. The solution should not be "play a different job", that's just crappy. The solution is also not "make parties deal with it", as that means that the job will just be shunned as we are seeing right now. No. The solution is to balance the role, period. Having raise and not needing it is tacitly better than needing raise and not having it, no one can disagree with this. Even if you or anyone specifically plays the job and doesn't need raise, that doesn't mean that the job couldn't use it at all. I just want to play my main class and not feel guilty about it, man.


Edit: This is to say nothing of the damage imbalance on RDM right now, Embolden needs better usability, certainly, but this thread is about BLM and Raise, not RDM damage.

The thread was about all three casters at one point, until page 14. Still in the "Raise is the problem, not the solution" crowd though. Seeing as throwing bodies at bosses is a viable tactic Raise needs to get addressed at some point, not removed entirely just longer effective cooldowns for the 2 DPS raises. And again as many many people have pointed out, poked holes in or put succintly, just having the option will do nothing for BLM besides making the other two casters look better by comparison.

Why not just reduce the mana transfer CD to a minute or lower on BLM?

Mana shift already sucks on BLM as we hardly have any good time to transfer mana without clipping GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Alexalibur

Mana shift already sucks on BLM as we hardly have any good time to transfer mana without clipping GCDs.

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but thats not a blm only problem, is it? at least it would be more effective on blm than on both of the others - would that count as "good" utility or not? can imagine that most of you are just looking for more dps not for utilities hmm? : o

The more I read the more I think what the job really needs is some form of magic vulnerability to apply on the boss, if we don't have res allow us to have better sinergy with the jobs that do, if we by design are disliked by healers, at least allow us to increase their dps, it's just the perfect utility for the job and helps to improve community perception of the class.

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Originally Posted by Alexalibur

Mana shift already sucks on BLM as we hardly have any good time to transfer mana without clipping GCDs.

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If your more concerned about your own personal dps while seeing a healer on low mp and trying res ppl up than I think you should'be not play blm or be part of any PT.

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

The more I read the more I think what the job really needs is some form of magic vulnerability to apply on the boss, if we don't have res allow us to have better sinergy with the jobs that do, if we by design are disliked by healers, at least allow us to increase their dps, it's just the perfect utility for the job and helps to improve community perception of the class.

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Currently what i think would "fix" blm (i dont think there will be any big changes) is that if we are on umbrella ice /astral fire '1' we should cast ice 3 not as hard cast but instead the same speed as if we would be casting on umbrella fire 3.

Personaly i would be happy if could cast flare faster even for a cost of lower dmg.

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Originally Posted by Akor

If your more concerned about your own personal dps while seeing a healer on low mp and trying res ppl up than I think you should'be not play blm or be part of any PT.



Currently what i think would "fix" blm (i dont think there will be any big changes) is that if we are on umbrella ice/fire '1' we should cast ice 3 not as hard cast but instead the same speed as if we would be casting on umbrella fire 3.

Personaly i would be happy if could cast flare faster even for a cost of lower dmg.

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While I would never let the party suffer by not using Addle, Mana Shift or Apoc it feels so bad that we have to clip and lose dps to use the little utility we have, MCH (which is the other dps I play) has 10 times our utility and don't have to clip ever to use it.

As for the other part of your quote boosting our AoE is a good idea, but unless the next tier changes a lot AoE damage is barely relevant in Savage and it won't fix the job at all.

Well i agree for that its sad that MS is clipping with our skills wich we can debate about it if MS should be oGCD or not. Which we all agree it should be oGCD.

Im not saying it will fix the job bot instead it give us more option to do more dmg and i think its feels waste not to use it and same goes for tornado kick too. I mean we use flare which one has higher potency (650) while flare is pitty compared to it (260) the more mobs it hits the far lesser dmg it does too. Which why i think it should be on 2.5 sec.

After looking at the potency on flare, they should just lower the CD on it 260+ dmg potency for us on single target +when we use it on multiple mobs.

I really do get what you are saying @Llugen but still very much disagree about blm getting raise, ever.
SE really need to make us the superior damage, and no not by a small amount but noticeable difference.
Small buff would still mean nothing as smn still has... utility so the margin needs to be far bigger.
Smn would be chosen (even in progression) over blm even if it had no raise.

They could flat increase BLM damage by 30% and it still probably wouldn't be enough to justify taking for progression right now, because the job will most likely be on the floor half the time since it has the lowest capability to deal with mechanics on the spot, or have lost so much damage from dealing with mechanics that the increase was irrelevant. In the event that all they do is increase the damage, the logic will become "Ok, so BLM is strong now but sucks to try to progress on and still has no tools, so I'll just play SMN it's slightly less damage but it has plenty of utility and is a movement god. Maybe I'll come back to BLM after prog is over," and that'e exactly what we don't want to have happen.


Call me a broken record, yet again, but while BLM need not be the best class for progression, it certainly needs some assistance from where its currently standing. It's a bit ridiculous. A fix as simple as Fire/Thunder Ready and decrease Aetherial Manipulation recast time might fix this (as well as instant cast Fire/Blizzard under enhanced enochian), but it still will not justify the lack of recovery tools that are so utterly valuable for progression, and which recovery tool is the most important for progression? You guessed it.

Addressing Mana Shift, it is lamentable that the class that it seems like it would be the best on is actually the worst, but it makes sense due to the hardcast on-GCD nature of BLM, not to mention the amount given through shift is less than Refresh. I'd propose a "tether" specifically for BLM that channels MP to a target on a 120s recast that can refresh more MP but costs the BLM nothing so it could be used at any time in the rotation.

Mana shift bring more mana if you play blm than smn because base mana for blm is 15k and 13k for smn. I think they should work over mana shift more. Change it 30 - 40% mana and make foul or blizzard 4 instant cast so you could weave it during ice stance.

Think they should rework mana shift entirely since it's extremely inferior to refresh

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Originally Posted by Akor

If your more concerned about your own personal dps while seeing a healer on low mp and trying res ppl up than I think you should'be not play blm or be part of any PT.

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This might be hard to believe, but seeing as -no one else who can restore MP has to clip anything-, it's not unreasonable to point out yet another lack of parity between not only roles, but jobs within one role.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This is all the more reason why the job needs more instant casts (see also, procs) to work with. I've been systematically preaching this across all the threads regarding BLM for months.

In 2.0, BLM damage came from firestarter and thundercloud (and uptime, of course), and these gave an opportunity to weave off-GCDs like swiftcast and aetherial manipulation (!!!!!!!!!!!) rather regularly, particularly in fire phase. Now that BLM damage comes from consistently hardcasting Fire IV, there are little to no procs of Firestarter, and windows to use Thundercloud are much smaller, not to mention inability to move (even if briefly). RDM and SMN both have this in the form of Dualcast(and melee combo) and Ruin II/IV, while BLM suffers hard. This is to be addressed in the other thread, however.

The enabling of more consistent procs from Thunder Ready (affectionately named Firestorm/Thunderstorm in my other suggestion post) and making Fire/Blizzard instant cast under Enhanced Enochian means that the rotation can continue even if there is a small loss and more small movement windows can be planned for. This translates into using off-GCDs as well, and by extension, an off-GCD Raise ability (to bring it back home).

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Originally Posted by Llugen

They could flat increase BLM damage by 30% and it still probably wouldn't be enough to justify taking for progression right now, because the job will most likely be on the floor half the time since it has the lowest capability to deal with mechanics on the spot. In the event that all they do is increase the damage, the logic will become "Ok, so BLM is strong now but sucks to try to progress on and still has no tools, so I'll just play SMN it's slightly less damage but it has plenty of utility and is a movement god. Maybe I'll come back to BLM after prog is over.....

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^ this is my fear too, if blm just gets a (slight) damage increase.., just hope they wont consider giving blm rez xD (giving blm rez would be bad for blm in so many ways..)

but maybe give some mana shift boost exclusive trait (like giving double the mp, but with no mp.cost when used in astral ice .. and a shorter cd)

I promise I won't harp on it incessantly again, but giving BLM raise as an off-GCD recast instead of as a GCD with massively long cast time and high MP cost is exactly what needs to happen. Blindly giving BLM raise as a GCD like all the others would indeed be not only poor design (consideration for rotation/uptime, mp pool issues in either astral or umbral, lore, vision for the class), but just flat out lazy. Hence why I'm so adamant about it being limited to a recast off-GCD.

BLM should get an exclusive ability for MP transfer/regen outside of mana shift, since its niche is mana recharge.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This might be hard to believe, but seeing as -no one else who can restore MP has to clip anything-, it's not unreasonable to point out yet another lack of parity between not only roles, but jobs within one role.

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Like i sayd later, we dont need to debate about w/e MS should be oGCD or not, we all agree on that it should be not clipping, but NOW its not, you can only accept it until they change it. Which they should.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This is all the more reason why the job needs more instant casts (see also, procs) to work with. I've been systematically preaching this across all the threads regarding BLM for months.

In 2.0, BLM damage came from firestarter and thundercloud (and uptime, of course), and these gave an opportunity to weave off-GCDs like swiftcast and aetherial manipulation (!!!!!!!!!!!) rather regularly, particularly in fire phase. Now that BLM damage comes from consistently hardcasting Fire IV, there are little to no procs of Firestarter, and windows to use Thundercloud are much smaller, not to mention inability to move (even if briefly). RDM and SMN both have this in the form of Dualcast(and melee combo) and Ruin II/IV, while BLM suffers hard. This is to be addressed in the other thread, however.

The enabling of more consistent procs from Thunder Ready (affectionately named Firestorm/Thunderstorm in my other suggestion post) and making Fire/Blizzard instant cast under Enhanced Enochian means that the rotation can continue even if there is a small loss and more small movement windows can be planned for. This translates into using off-GCDs as well, and by extension, an off-GCD Raise ability (to bring it back home).

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AM would be best if we could cast it while we cast. That would be great bc we dont need it to clip it between two casting. While it would be great if could insta cast fire/ice 1 under enochian but ppl would start complaining its too easy. Thats why i think it would be ""best"" if we could case blizzard 3 and/or blizzard 4* . I dont want smn playstyle.

Im totaly okey for more oGCD's/insta casts but not while simplifys what BLM is.

*For example if your on either astral fire 1 or umbrella ice 1 but u have enough or full MP you can cast blizzard 3 and than cast b4 and jump back to fire 3 w/o all the hard cast.

Speedier Casting for BLM would increase their damage output significantly enough that they wouldn't find as many issues being in 24 content or 8 content 1.25 Seconds for Ice 1.50 Sec for fire would see a rather sizeable increase and they would be back at the top of the roster without the need to increase thier damage or consider changing the entire class by adding rez seriously no rez for blm.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I promise I won't harp on it incessantly again, but giving BLM raise as an off-GCD recast instead of as a GCD with massively long cast time and high MP cost is exactly what needs to happen. Blindly giving BLM raise as a GCD like all the others would indeed be not only poor design (consideration for rotation/uptime, mp pool issues in either astral or umbral, lore, vision for the class), but just flat out lazy. Hence why I'm so adamant about it being limited to a recast off-GCD.

BLM should get an exclusive ability for MP transfer/regen outside of mana shift, since its niche is mana recharge.

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It’s a bit inconsequent asking for a res (a more powerful one than even Rdm has) to be equal but at the same time also asking for a cls exclusive buff on manashift (which Blm already is the most effective one in % and refill-ablility.) So which way should it be in the end equal or niche? :0

Hmm? How would that be more powerful? It's balanced by hardcasts and long recast time. So, your BLM could raise your healer who died or only the first player who died, and then that's it. This would avoid homogenization spectacularly, not to mention address the issue with infinite MP and prevent the job from becoming rez dispenser, which literally no one wants and makes no sense.



Dealing with MP phases is BLM's unique mechanic in this game, so it makes sense that providing recharge would be smart for it to be able to do. Also, to be a little snarky, currently SMN's niche is burst damage/damage support/high mobility, RDM's is moderate to high mobility/healing support/simplicity, and BLM's niche is... nothing. I suppose, being stuck casting for long periods of time for little to no reward. So I'm not upset if it got something that none of the other jobs have.

Im totally with you on Manashift it’s the most logical way to make it Blm+ but I think you are one of the less Blms who want a res at all... :‘3

Also in generell im absolutely with Kida Blm should get a dps increase no question - but i like shorter casttimes way more than insta procs - one can say don’t be jelly/ego with your movement - but high mobility fits Blm as less as a necro res. I mean way before rdms apear smn was the mobil one, Blm the rage one. yeah u should be stronger but no u shouldn’t be as mobil as smn/rdm.

I don’t think copy paste of lore/cls design is the right way to „balance“ things out cause „that“ would be how do u call it? - just „flat & lazy“. : /

Bluntly put, I want tools for progression in the form of movement and support on the job because I don't want to have to be stuck playing SMN/RDM again for another 8 months (or bullied into it, or feel guilty for NOT doing it). Apparently that makes me radical: the idea that, since party composition makes sense to go by role than by actual class, one class within a role will be shunned out and apparently people are ok with that.


I don't want to have to be the one saying to my group "ok, I know BLM is a selfish class that offers no support, and though I also do well playing SMN, I'm going to play BLM anyway because screw you guys." No one does.

If you don't realize how this is an issue, then apparently you don't do progression raiding or don't care about progression raiding, and that is where the job is particularly being shunned. Dungeons and 24 man content are faceroll, so balance matters less, but any number more reasons NOT to take BLM into a static makes it just that much harder. And again, better to have and not need than to need and not have. If you don't want to raise or don't find the need to raise on the job, then good for you, I guess, but the role is off-balance, period. That is the point of the OP of this thread; either BLM should also have raise to balance the caster role, or NONE of the casters should have it, to balance the caster role.

funny one I was raiding with smn 4.0 I know exactly how do u feel cause it was even worse than Blm atm. But that’s not the point, the point is balancing to be effective over time should be well thought. Smn changes look great but infact we lost Identity for higher numbers what’s at least for me is more important than being top dps. Aside of our overbuffed numbers - there still remain cls design issues especially with Egis & Bahamut (what btw is our lore) but noone talks about that anymore because we are „top dps“ atm and sadly that seems to be the only thing shortviewed player are interested in... changing Blms identity by res and movement will kill another major ff-franchise character lore design - for what? A top fflogs ranking spot is that what you want?

Instead of giving Blm new skills which fight his lore they should make inaktive skills worth again like they did fe with devotion and tri-bind, they can go with manashift and freeze. That would be way better than taking the „niche“ ones from his company. Better create your own one tho.

edit: even stranger that u want utility and movement for raidprogress what’s totally unusual for Blm ever since... if your arguments are like that Blm/Sam are the totally wrong cls for you they never was and never shall be like that. Selfbuffs, indirect healer dps increase due advance manashift, shorter casttimes and higher pots would all fairly fit Blms „Lord of raw destruction“ design - grp utility, res and movement won’t. : /

SMN at the beginning of 4.0 was not weak, it was just tough to figure out and master and needed quality of life. I personally know SMNs that were keeping up with if not ahead of BLMs even at the beginning of deltascape savage. SMN had been a steep learning curve, I can definitively say that said curve turned me off from even bothering to learn it at the beginning of 4.0 until it was buffed. Now it's just insane.



Also, notice how access to bind is distributed across the caster role, with tribind freeze and tether. Raise however....

Besides, I would say again that "pure DPS" doesn't really exist in this game; one selfish player will always have a tough time outdamaging the contribution that support can give to SEVEN OTHER PLAYERS. #drgnin

yeah there were exactly 3 of them at first for a long time and se fucked their own mantra „making everything easier“ totally up on smn - never the less you are good in avoiding questions/facts which are uncomfortable for u so I’ll better leave your opinion as it is - BtS epi 3 is waiting <3

Last words: if raw dps exist or not doesn’t really matter if devs decision to create pure ego dps cls‘ without grp synergy, the options are easy take them or leave them but questioning their intentions is a personal problem after all... : /

Well hopefully u‘ll find your peace with 4.2 even without a res ;3

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Originally Posted by Neela

yeah there were exactly 3 of them at first for a long time and se fucked their own mantra „making everything easier“ totally up on smn - never the less you are good in avoiding questions/facts which are uncomfortable for u

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Could you restate your question please--in as clear English as you can muster? I don't usually comment on post composition, but it is incredibly difficult to interpret what you're typing, and I know you can do better because you have written better in the past.

I'm not even sure there was a question that wasn't rhetorical. For what? For balance?

Just because you're not imaginative enough to envision how BLM could have movement and raise doesn't mean that it is impossible. Case and point: SMNs use DoTs, DRK is a tank, SAM is a DPS. FF is the literal definition of reinventing itself. Don't accuse me of "ruining a class" because you can't think outside the box.

articulation might be a bit fussy cause I just came home from the xmas market a bit uhm drunk I guess - the question was if he really want his changes even if they would absolutely break Blm lore like they broke our lore just for numbers, leaving the real issues as they are. Is being top dps really so important?

edit: outside the box? it’s more like you can’t think out of the box creating your own spot without taking other cls‘ advantages and pair them with raw power to be top tier in all facets. That’s not out of the box that’s lame and kinda ego. : /

Sorry to get frustrated again, but it's obvious you haven't even bothered reading my posts as I've explained exactly that ad nauseam.

1. Lore gives way to balance in an MMO, and lore can be creative/reimagined (black magic raise vs white magic raise)
2. the class that is advertised as "low utility, high damage" should absolutely be the strongest damage (this should be a no brainer, even if drunk)
3. ....what exactly are "the real issues" if not movement/usability, damage, and utility..? Glamour items? lol

1. we won’t find one way here let’s stop talking about Blm res
2. i never denied that - what u would know if you would have read my posts carefully
3. They left Egi & Bahamut Issus which are/were our real problem and overbuffed everything else insanely just to keep the crowd under control

Im not a Blm hater like many might guess - I’d like to see buffs/balance for them but not copy/paste ones, more likely ones which fit and strengthen their identity and not the quite opposite - that’s the nutshell.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

1. Lore gives way to balance in an MMO, and lore can be creative/reimagined (black magic raise vs white magic raise)

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Go play another MMO then. This is Final Fantasy. Lore always in first place.

But point is that SE said that they won't give a raise to BLM back in July, which means to me that they do not consider raise a caster utility, they even said that they give it to RDM becuase of lore (and SMN has access to it because SCH had to have raise), which imho means that they did not consider the implications.

Frankly it's more probable that they'll choose to limit it instead of giving it to other jobs.

edit: Also I would like to remind to everyone that it's pointless to attack ppl beliefs since it won't lead us anywhere, Llugen is free to share his opinion as everyone is

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Originally Posted by Neela

articulation might be a bit fussy cause I just came home from the xmas market a bit uhm drunk I guess - the question was if he really want his changes even if they would absolutely break Blm lore like they broke our lore just for numbers, leaving the real issues as they are. Is being top dps really so important?

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How did they break Summoner's lore for numbers? Nothing regarding Summoner right now feels like it's lore-breaking from the standpoint of FFXIV's lore.

And being top is important when you bring nothing but personal dps.