Is our sub fee not enought

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No, there is something of a 'social contract' that is rather assumed when you pay a monthly subscription fee that certain things will not be done. gouging *paying* customers in a cash shop is one of those things.

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Explain "gouging paying customers". While I do think that the emotes are too expensive for what you're getting (and is the reason I'm not buying them), my sub does not entitle me to them, so I'm not a paying customer in respect to those emotes.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Explain "gouging paying customers". While I do think that the emotes are too expensive for what you're getting (and is the reason I'm not buying them), my sub does not entitle me to them, so I'm not a paying customer in respect to those emotes.

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I've explained it already in at least two posts above.

You are a paying customer since you see those emotes in the game you pay a monthly fee to play. Note that I am not arguing the Cash shop should close and everything be covered by the sub, but I am, and will continue to argue, that charging such prices for something like an emote on a *single* character is gouging paying customers. You can glibly deny that and throw your money at SE all you want, that's your privilege, just as mine is to point out what I consider to be true. Gouging is gouging.

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Originally Posted by Domeric

This is apt.


By making excuses for Square-Enix (or any company) to add more content outside of

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But if you do the math its not enough not even close to enough so what are you saying exactly show me a popular mmo witout a cash shop, show me one that makes money off of sub payment only. You guys are being delusional this game wants to be at the top just like Im sure any other game does a mere 15 dollar sub a month isnt going to do that you no what does people like someone said earlier they spent 900 dollars on the mog station stop blaminig the company and see that people have the choice to buy these items. 15 dollars is cheap for all the content thats in this game, could the emotes be cheaper sure but they dont have to be because people still buy them for seven dollars.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

people have the choice to buy these items.

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You have the choice to buy them! No one is forcing you!

And slowly more and more items that would have in the past been added straight to the game through content patches find their place on the cash shop instead. That excuse erodes the value of our game.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I've explained it already in at least two posts above.

You are a paying customer since you see those emotes in the game you pay a monthly fee to play. Note that I am not arguing the Cash shop should close and everything be covered by the sub, but I am, and will continue to argue, that charging such prices for something like an emote on a *single* character is gouging paying customers. You can glibly deny that and throw your money at SE all you want, that's your privilege, just as mine is to point out what I consider to be true. Gouging is gouging.

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Simple as an "emote". Do you realize that each race and class combo has to have a unique emote animation? Its not like adding an glamour where it just a skin on top of your current item. Its a fully animated. Thats why you don't see any MMOs add " Simple Emotes " to the game.

Also, if you read the terms of agreement. Your $15 a month grants your access to the server and that't all. So any additional items they put in the mog shop are theirs to sell. Its that simple.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

You have the choice to buy them! No one is forcing you!

And slowly more and more items that would have in the past been added straight to the game through content patches find their place on the cash shop instead. That excuse erodes the value of our game.

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Well you said that youd rather them go free to play if they continue to do this I personally would rather them not the sub is to keep up steady content like we get now. It doesnt matter to me what the cash shop does for them because the game is providing plenty of things in game for me I dont have to have it all.

So Im fine with whatever they put in cash shop as long as they continue to make and provide good content for us on a regular schedule, if I where rich Id be doing the samething as SE its just business dude. Nothing more to it , I just cant believe its this much fuss over an emote when the game basically just gave us free 270 accessories and just gave us two or three new emotes for our sub. This is the state of all mmos pretty much youd be hard press to find one that wasnt tryin to maximize profit , same goes for rpgs, the days of you buy something at base price and you get everything to go with it are over.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Note that I am not arguing the Cash shop should close and everything be covered by the sub, but I am, and will continue to argue, that charging such prices for something like an emote on a *single* character is gouging paying customers. You can glibly deny that and throw your money at SE all you want, that's your privilege, just as mine is to point out what I consider to be true. Gouging is gouging.

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I couldn't agree more. I do think the price of those emotes is gouged pretty badly. I would never be willing to pay $7 each for those, especially if they can only be used on a single character.

So I fail to see why you quoted me and barged into an argument I was having with another poster that has nothing to do with what you are arguing.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

But if you do the math its not enough not even close to enough so what are you saying exactly show me a popular mmo witout a cash shop, show me one that makes money off of sub payment only. You guys are being delusional this game wants to be at the top just like Im sure any other game does a mere 15 dollar sub a month isnt going to do that you no what does people like someone said earlier they spent 900 dollars on the mog station stop blaminig the company and see that people have the choice to buy these items. 15 dollars is cheap for all the content thats in this game, could the emotes be cheaper sure but they dont have to be because people still buy them for seven dollars.

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Can you empirically prove that?

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Originally Posted by Aniond

Simple as an "emote". Do you realize that each race and class combo has to have a unique emote animation? Its not like adding an glamour where it just a skin on top of your current item. Its a fully animated. Thats why you don't see any MMOs add " Simple Emotes " to the game.

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Except that the emote is literally an animation that already exist in game. It's just converted to work as an emote. lol

Alas, we can't /doze on the floor because of 423850934285 reasons, but for 7$...

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

But if you do the math its not enough not even close to enough so what are you saying exactly show me a popular mmo witout a cash shop, show me one that makes money off of sub payment only.

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This one.

It didn't launch with the cash shop, we went over a year before they introduced it. Game made so much money in that time it pretty much saved SE from going under.

We're not talking about a totally different era in gaming or anything, it was literally just a couple years ago.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

So Im fine with whatever they put in cash shop as long as they continue to make and provide good content for us on a regular schedule

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Emotes are content, too. I couldn't care less about 270 accessories.

Sub isn't required for regular content updates, by the way. There are a few MMOs that knock that assertion down pretty handily. Note though that I'm not saying I want the game to go free-to-play, only that I feel that there is a line being crossed. If they want to milk us to this level with the cash shop, then I do not want them charging us a mandatory $15/month on top of it all.

So this argument has recently made me start comparing this game to a theme park... You pay to get in, and there's stuff you can do as many times as you want without having to pay extra (most rides, perhaps limited time events with free prizes and such), while there's other things such as carnival-like games, food, and merchandise (apparel, accessories, keepsakes/souvenirs, etc) that not only cost you extra per each play/item, but some might argue they cost you more than similar items sold in regular stores would cost you (aka; too much). Since you're stuck in this rather large park, unless you brought food with you and you're willing to carry it around or walk all the way back to your car to eat it, some might even argue that the bumped prices are entirely due to having you at the mercy of convenience, also referred to as price gouging. All of this despite the fact that you paid for your ticket/season pass to get in, since it does not in fact cover everything you see/encounter in the park. Definitely some similarities in there, such as rides/duties (both involve waiting in a line/queue), the cash shop items being the souvenirs and overpriced food, etc.

Now, this game is developed using something referred to in the gaming community as a "theme park formula". It's not entirely 1:1, but am I taking this theme park comparison thing too far? Outside of MMORPGs, the business model itself is definitely oldhat, and the overpriced food and souvenirs are typically just an expected/accepted trope of the theme park scene. Typically it's only little jimmy or susan who's throwing a fit when their parents won't buy them that 6-foot stuffed panda bear.

I'm not necessarily using this to excuse or argue against the cash shop stuff, just a sort of comparison I've been thinking about today.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

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While I like the comparison. Theme parks are pretty upfront about what is covered with entry fee. Also info on what extra costs might be as well. Do you think that SE will be that forthcoming about what will be extra, what charges would be, and what monthly fees cover. Some free to play games are way more honest then 14 is about pricing.

If the company truly outlined the conditions for cash shop. Cost, resources, when it will be added, how it will be implemented (single or account). People wouldn't probably be as upset. As a consumer they would make the decision acceptable with the info provided or not and leave.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

snip.

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You're not wrong. I've been referring to SE as digital Disneyland since they announced the cash shop.

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Originally Posted by Stormrider

While I like the comparison. Theme parks are pretty upfront about what is covered with entry fee. Also info on what extra costs might be as well. Do you think that SE will be that forthcoming about what will be extra, what charges would be, and what monthly fees cover. Some free to play games are way more honest then 14 is about pricing.

If the company truly outlined the conditions for cash shop. Cost, resources, when it will be added, how it will be implemented (single or account). People wouldn't probably be as upset. As a consumer they would make the decision acceptable with the info provided or not and leave.

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I would argue that the free to play model is designed specifically around their cash shop items, so it would make more sense to place exacting focus on said items to make sure anyone willing to spend the $ has maximum exposure to everything the cash shop has to offer.

In Final Fantasy XIV; none of the items in the cash shop are in any way a primary feature of the game. You can argue that different people play this game for different reasons, and have their own views as to what aspects of the game are primary to them; but that doesn't supersede the primary focus of the game's developers or publisher (While both are technically SE in this case, Yoshi-P and his team don't have 100% influence over all aspects of the game, including the cash shop).

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Still does not in any shape or form make it forced

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Simply saying you don't have to buy them doesn't even correlate to their problem with it.
It is that if they want everything in the game they have to pay a sub fee and pay extra for other things. Yes that is if they WANT to, but not the point.
In the past it was not this way, it has morphed into this over time. F2P had micro. P2P did not. No doubt they are taking notes from Blizzard.
I care not either way.
But neither side is wrong on this, it is their opinion on the matter.
Again, just because they are not FORCED to buy it, doesn't alleviate what their concern is. The concern is that they don't get everything for what they already pay.

A legitimate concern, as much as it doesn't bother you is a legitimate feeling.

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Originally Posted by Grawbad

The concern is that they don't get everything for what they already pay.

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They're the one assuming they already paid for everything. Exactly like the Disneyland comparison, these people would be surprised having to pay extra cash for food.

Oh boy, I just came back to the game after a long time off and I didn't even realize there was this whole micro-market now. This thread is pretty interesting in it's entirety and I can understand both sides of the debate.

Personally, I don't see an issue with the cash shop. From what I browsed, there's nothing in there that you need to progress in the game. Are prices for some things crazy? Yes, probably to most. But that doesn't mean that SE are crooks. It's an avenue for more money in their pockets, and it's tough to fault them for that.

I played The Old Republic for a little while and that game is way more "forceful" in how you spend money. You can play for free, but it's so limited the you want to sub just to give yourself the convenience to play how you want. There's armor and weapons that you can buy that's actually beneficial to your character, not just some asthetics.

So as far as what you get for the sub in this game, I think it's great. You get full access to everything that matters.
Would I eventually buy something from the cash shop? Probably. Like an extra retainer or something. But at the end of the day, it's optional items and with or without it, your gameplay won't suffer.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I couldn't agree more. I do think the price of those emotes is gouged pretty badly. I would never be willing to pay $7 each for those, especially if they can only be used on a single character.

So I fail to see why you quoted me and barged into an argument I was having with another poster that has nothing to do with what you are arguing.

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How exactly, does one barge into an argument on a public forum? I replied to a point you made, no offense, but why post if you are not interested in replies?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

They're the one assuming they already paid for everything. Exactly like the Disneyland comparison, these people would be surprised having to pay extra cash for food.

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Except that FFXIV started as an all inclusive theme resort, and has now started seeming a bit more like a nickel and dime resort where the basic room and board are covered, but the extras that make a vacation are extra.

Honestly, I would prefer to see a modest sub increase, it's been steady for almost 4 years, inflation is still real, and I would prefer to pay up front instead of being nickel and dimed to death. There is a reason I and many others despise the F2P model. Seeing this whale hunting in a game with a strong subscription model is dissapointing.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Except that FFXIV started as an all inclusive theme resort, and has now started seeming a bit more like a nickel and dime resort where the basic room and board are covered, but the extras that make a vacation are extra.

Honestly, I would prefer to see a modest sub increase, it's been steady for almost 4 years, inflation is still real, and I would prefer to pay up front instead of being nickel and dimed to death. There is a reason I and many others despise the F2P model. Seeing this whale hunting in a game with a strong subscription model is dissapointing.

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One of the reasons I said the theme park comparison wasn't entirely 1:1 was, for example, the recent "Little Lady's Day" event. For roughly 30 minutes or less of effort, the game gives you vouchers for a 5 piece exclusive outfit and an emote. No cash shop tie-in or special extra purchases necessary outside of the game and subscription fee. Gettin' some free souvenirs there, but I guess maybe that could be tied into a limited time special or something.

Now, I see the kerfluffle are certain things like that /playdead emote where instead of there being an event for these, they were put straight into the shop. But I feel like the chicken/egg question with those is whether or not the devs would have created these straight-to-cash-shop items if there hadn't been a cash-shop to monetize the production time put into making them. We haven't suddenly stopped getting new outfits and emotes handed out to us for free* (*game price and subscription, yadda yadda), we still get those, in addition to these straight-to-shop items that I'm unsure if you can really prove whether these items would even have been created if SE had not plopped the cash shop down on the game.

Basically, you still get the same complimentary breakfast at the hotel, but now the hotel offers the option of a premium breakfast room service options for an additional fee.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

[...]
Honestly, I would prefer to see a modest sub increase, it's been steady for almost 4 years, inflation is still real, and I would prefer to pay up front instead of being nickel and dimed to death [...]

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While I understand you want to just pay everything up front; not everyone cares about the extra items in the shop, so it would potentially cause a drop in subs if people saw their subscription fee go up for the sake of items they weren't even interested in to begin with.

Maybe they could introduce a premium subscription option for those who are interested in getting those additional items tied in without feeling nickel and dimed.

I'm just waiting for when the cashshop contains all the armors, and the dungeons and tomes just gets you some "stat slab" you put in your equippment slots. I wonder if all the pro-cashshop people would be ok with that? And let's put all other mounts except the chocobo on there as well while we're at it. Afterall, it's just cosmetic and completly unneccessary to play and enjoy the game.

Hyperbole of course, but I don't see such a scenario as being totaly unrealistic in the end.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

They're the one assuming they already paid for everything. Exactly like the Disneyland comparison, these people would be surprised having to pay extra cash for food.

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Their assumption of paying for everything comes directly from the fact that P2P games were always that way. Indeed it was one of the arguing points for P2P games over F2P and why it was worth it to pay per month.
The analogy for Disneyland is not a proper one because one always expects to pay for other things like food unless one paid extra for something that was ALL INCLUSIVE. Which is what P2P games once were.
A better analogy would be a product that you always bought that was all inclusive and later they decide to start selling things on top of it.
But again, I digress.
Your opinion on the matter is valid, the problem here is, so is theirs.

Everything in this game is content. I love glamour, pets, mounts and I am not that interested in fighting or raids. Yet if I want a complete pet set (which I cant have anyway thanks to all these nice timed-exclusive real life stuff..) I have to pay money even after paying my sub. I am fine with features like name changing, Fantasia or world transfer. And I am also a bit okay with old seasonal stuff in there..(but the prices..) but I am not fine with getting more and more cash shop exclusive items because even though we dont have to buy it..if we want it, there is not other way than paying money. (I am kinda bad since I did buy mounts and pets from the cash shop..but if you are a collector its really getting hard..)

So if people are fine with those things being in the cash shop. Would you be fine too if they put the raid in there? Like if you want to raid you have to buy a DLC from the cash shop? I mean its content like mounts and pets are and its not done by a lot of people anyway. (And it must costs quite a lot to create it) Or would this be not fine because suddenly it would be something you want in the game?

And if somehow FF14 can only give us more inventory or housing or anything else if people buy from the cash shop..welp that can turn bad quite fast because this means that the subs themselves are not enough which means that if subs are going to drop or stay the same, we will see more and more items in the cash shop..but every customer has a line and the company should do quite well to not cross it because if they need the CS and people will just stop paying out of protest or even stop playing the game..well you will have a bad financial situation really fast. Never forget that without customers you will not earn money ;) and in this times its probably not really easy to hold them.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

While I understand you want to just pay everything up front; not everyone cares about the extra items in the shop, so it would potentially cause a drop in subs if people saw their subscription fee go up for the sake of items they weren't even interested in to begin with.

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Could we please apply the same logic to content like Savage Raids? Because as it stands, it's included in the subscription fees, despite not everyone being interested in them to begin with. Let's allow people to reduce their subscription fees if they don't care about that kind of content.

Actually, just make a bunch of boxes for content you can tick, then have the sub fee calculated automatically from that.

Reading this makes me feel dissapointed...

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

How exactly, does one barge into an argument on a public forum? I replied to a point you made, no offense, but why post if you are not interested in replies?

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Because you didn't reply with anything relevant to the conversation. I agreed with you that the price is too high on the emotes (twice).

I was explaining how there's nothing wrong with or "pay to win" about selling cosmetics in the cash shop and having a subscription, and that we are not entitled to every asset created for the game just because we pay a sub.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Boredom won out. So for a single character, you can own all cash shop items for a hair over $990!

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For comparison, quickly adding all the items, pets and mounts I could see on WoW's store page came to roughly $388.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Could we please apply the same logic to content like Savage Raids? Because as it stands, it's included in the subscription fees, despite not everyone being interested in them to begin with. Let's allow people to reduce their subscription fees if they don't care about that kind of content.

Actually, just make a bunch of boxes for content you can tick, then have the sub fee calculated automatically from that.

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If you want to take the game's primary feature, online RPG combat/cooperatiob, and compare it to a dress and a wind-up doll, that's your prerogative.

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Originally Posted by Yonanja

I'm just waiting for when the cashshop contains all the armors, and the dungeons and tomes just gets you some "stat slab" you put in your equippment slots. I wonder if all the pro-cashshop people would be ok with that? And let's put all other mounts except the chocobo on there as well while we're at it. Afterall, it's just cosmetic and completly unneccessary to play and enjoy the game.

Hyperbole of course, but I don't see such a scenario as being totaly unrealistic in the end.

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I wouldnt actually care we already have unsync and thats essentially like giving stuff away if you have the patience same difference.

Just about ever sub based MMO has an item shop. FFXIV is no different. If you don't like it, then don't buy.

It's so sad that this emote isn't available ingame and must be bought in mog-shop.

It's so cute on lalafells, but I don't want to support this kind of stuff anymore.
We pay monthly, it was fine with old event content, but this...

Just no SE, that was too much.

And it's not just "glamour". In this case they could add bonus-stats on gear in mog-shop too. It would be not essential for the content or clear the content.
Colors or the first mounts (like sleipnir) in mog-shop were only the beginning. After that they implemented glamour gear in mog-shop only, now emotes... Whats next? Maybe a new race like little miquote such as klhoe? Or different horns for auras? This would be just "glamour" too. is this fine for you?
Or new BiS gear for raids which are not needed to clear content?

Think about it...

You know what a subscription fee bought back in the day? It bought content that was tailored to people who had to dedicate 8-10 hours a day to get 1-2 levels, sparse events laid out sporadically, endgame content that needed 4-200 people to complete, no nerfs or buffs to classes and bosses once they were released, and no new content till the next expansion (If the game was even allowed an expansion by the investors.) This is what a sub fee got you back in the day.

FFXIV sub fee gets you easy leveling so as not to bog a person down with a long grind, events like crazy that give new emotes and gear, endgame content that is catered for all spectrum of players which only needs 1-8 people to complete, nerfs and buffs to classes, bosses, and instances on a scheduled patch basis, new "growing" content on a constant schedule. That's what you sub fee pays for.

All the cash shop stuff, if you really want it you can get it, you just gotta buy it lol. Why should SE make everything free when games in the past did less and charged a sub fee for almost the exact same price? They day I start complaining about the cash shop is the day where it actually impacts my game play where buffs that should have been meant for the patch was put in the cash shop like "Fist of Fire damage increase to 15%." That's when people should get annoyed lol but to get annoyed at not getting a ton of emotes and glamour for free is a little petty in comparison to what the game actually gives to us. This comparison to what sub fees, past and present got us is just a reminder that we could be playing something vastly different and underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Arg0n

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They aren't going to add gear with actual stats that matter and they've specifically stated items on Mogstation are going to be for Glamour. If you want to be super nitpicky then yes there is an actual set or two of Glamour gear that grants an exp bonus but there are plenty of in-game items available that do this same thing.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...em/d08c0b6c6f4

It boggles my mind how anyone can think anything in this game could be considered "free.". 15 dollars a month plus now three box prices, more if you play on multiple systems. That is in no way free. You can argue subjective values until you're blue in the face, but nothing about ffxiv is free.

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Originally Posted by Roda

It boggles my mind how anyone can think anything in this game could be considered "free.". 15 dollars a month plus now three box prices, more if you play on multiple systems. That is in no way free. You can argue subjective values until you're blue in the face, but nothing about ffxiv is free.

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I think you've missed the point. No one thinks XIV if free to play. What people are debating is whether all items should be included in that subscription fee vs. having a cash shop. Thought this was fairly obvious :X

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I think you've missed the point. No one thinks XIV if free to play. What people are debating is whether all items should be included in that subscription fee vs. having a cash shop. Thought this was fairly obvious :X

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I'd interpret it that way if people weren't using the word "free.". Free items and content are different than items and content provided by our sub. A welcome back campaign with an open access weekend is free. A seasonal event with rewards is covered by our sub. If people don't mean "free" then don't say the content is free.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

For comparison, quickly adding all the items, pets and mounts I could see on WoW's store page came to roughly $388.

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WoW! (heehhe) That is a pretty massive difference. Kudos to XIV for beating WoW in something I suppose. :X

Gotta love the fear mongering in these threads. "Soon it will be armor and dungeons!" No it won't. Everything on the cash shop has been for aesthetic purposes and always will be.

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Originally Posted by Roda

I'd interpret it that way if people weren't using the word "free.". Free items and content are different than items and content provided by our sub. A welcome back campaign with an open access weekend is free. A seasonal event with rewards is covered by our sub. If people don't mean "free" then don't say the content is free.

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With people asking for purchasable items on the mogstation to be provided to them with no such fee, pretty sure that is an apt definition of "free", especially since in the history of MMO's SE has more than substantially overcompensated us for the subscription fee we are currently paying. In my example above, those MMO's also had box prices attached to them, they didn't have multi-platform accessibility back than but if they did they would have charged per platform access, that's just business lol.

I still stand by my example of past and present pay structures above, FF14 could simply get rid of the cash shop and people would just find something else to gripe about, like the lack of glamour options and emotes, but than I would just be here laughing my ass off if that were to be the case.