Stop Giving the "Need" Command for Drop Gear in Dungeons to Higher Geared Players!

There is some highly questionable logic being pushed in this thread. :X

Let us follow the wise words of the Roegadyn

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Originally Posted by ErryK

http://i.imgur.com/cjsol7c.png

stahp

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Just came up with another idea, if you want the same biased system.

• In the case you want to preserve newbies' priority on loot for gearing, there is a very simple solution:
  
  1. Flag all gear loot acquired by rolling "Need" as unsellable, non-discardable, ineligible for GC turn‑ins, and ineligible for desynthesis.
  2. Remove the flags when they reach 100% spiritbond.
• If it's not the case, you are not only in favour of a skewed system but you are actively trying to piggyback the newbie-priority case for your "I picked a job - give me my trophy" over-entitlement.

EDIT: moved this to a separate thread because it is a different suggestion for the loot system and easier to implement, based on the current system.

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Originally Posted by Cordie

Just came up with another idea, if you want the same biased system.

• In the case you want to preserve newbies' priority on loot for gearing, there is a very simple solution:
  
  1. Flag all gear loot acquired by rolling "Need" as unsellable, non-discardable, ineligible for GC turn‑ins, and ineligible for desynthesis.
  2. Remove the flags when they reach 100% spiritbond.
• If it's not the case, you are not only in favour of a skewed system but you are actively trying to piggyback the newbie-priority case for your "I picked a job - give me my trophy" over-entitlement.

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This is a terrible idea. The fundamental point remains, if a player plays their role in a dungeon there is no reason that you can give that is fair that alters that player's right to have the same access to loot rolls as everyone else in the dungeon. What you are asking for is in effect penalizing veterans for being veterans. I think that would result in a reduction in people running DF content.

They are also looking to alter the DROP rates in RAID and it may work it's way into other things.
Where If you don't have someone in your group that can where DRG gear it will not drop.

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Originally Posted by Cordie

Just came up with another idea, if you want the same biased system.

• In the case you want to preserve newbies' priority on loot for gearing, there is a very simple solution:
  
  1. Flag all gear loot acquired by rolling "Need" as unsellable, non-discardable, ineligible for GC turn‑ins, and ineligible for desynthesis.
  2. Remove the flags when they reach 100% spiritbond.
• If it's not the case, you are not only in favour of a skewed system but you are actively trying to piggyback the newbie-priority case for your "I picked a job - give me my trophy" over-entitlement.

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I don't know how you did that, but even if your previous idea was atrocious, you just managed to do even worse.

Having to spiritbond the gear for your own job in order to get rid of it from your inventory... I've seen everything.
Besides, you came up with an idea which is actually the worst possible thing for newbies gearing up, even if your first goal was to "protect" them. That's... I mean... I don't think there's even a word for that.

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Originally Posted by Cordie

Just came up with another idea, if you want the same biased system.

• In the case you want to preserve newbies' priority on loot for gearing, there is a very simple solution:
  
  1. Flag all gear loot acquired by rolling "Need" as unsellable, non-discardable, ineligible for GC turn‑ins, and ineligible for desynthesis.
  2. Remove the flags when they reach 100% spiritbond.
• If it's not the case, you are not only in favour of a skewed system but you are actively trying to piggyback the newbie-priority case for your "I picked a job - give me my trophy" over-entitlement.

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And you are favouring a system that punishes all players so newbies have a better chance at gear they can't even use until they can be bothered to level up a job, or if levelled, will be replaced in 1-3 weeks. Newbies with this system you're suggesting will in turn be punished later on.

There is nothing wrong with the system as it is. You want a piece, play the job. Not at the ilvl? Play it to get gear on lower stuff first or use all those extra tomes to get gear for it. Simple, unbroken. Change the system to what you suggest, and enjoy your longer queues as less people will be queuing all because little miss Drg will end up getting the level 60 Blm for her level 28 Blm over what you actually need.

Cordie, I think at this point, you are so consumed by the "fairness" of your idea being better than the current system, that you don't see the flaws in it. Yes, it is better than the OP's suggestion, but not by much. Equalizing statistical outcomes by slashing all of them to a fraction of their current value for specific pieces of gear may sound fair in that all percentages are equal, but it is actually unfair to everyone involved because their chances to obtain specific gear are radically reduced.

I'm not even going to bother explaining to you the various different psychological implications and outlooks on what constitutes fair, because you won't understand anyways. Your suggestion addresses some of the flaws of the current system, but with flaws of its own that are no better than the current ones. If you insist on being willingly blind, then be my guest.

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Originally Posted by Cordie

Everything includes specific. “Specific” is a case or subset of everything. You can’t compare them in any other fashion much less declare them opposites!

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Specific is exactly that. Specific. It's targetted.
Everything is not targetted and is by no means specific.

I mean do you really need me to get a dictionary out for you?.....

Everything -
every single thing or every particular of an aggregate or total; all.
Specific -
specified, precise, or particular

There is only one audience that benefits from a "Need everything" system. That audience is already skewed in favour of loot with the current Need/Greed system.
While the chances of the needs of those who "need everything" or better put - "anything" are increased by a whopping 1%, the chances of the needs of those who need specific are reduced by over 10%.

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I hope you see you are defending a system with an arbitrary and imbalanced evaluation of needs. It shows in how you must add more conditions and case-specific limitations (“targeting”) to address each of the cases for every need I am treating equally.

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I see that clear as day. However the weight on the uses of each item vary considerably in terms of what each "Need" is used for..
Someone who needs items for seals just needs to turn in an item. Doesn't matter what item it is, therefore they can roll Need on their class items, and Greed on every item they cannot currently Need on. That's perfectly fine.
Someone who needs gear for their Tank has no other alternative to their Needs - and can only use Tank gear for those slots - they don't have any other option.

Allowing NEED on everything simply opens the GC seal pool to "NEED" anything, which does not have any degree of equality in terms of rewards.

Newbies that need a specific piece of gear only have 1/7th of the total pool that fit their purpose.
Players that need GC seals have 100% of the pool.

Unlocking that pool to GC seal hunters means that they have 25% chance of obtaining a piece of gear for every item that they need for seals, while that newbie who needs tank gear drops to sub-5% chance of obtaining a piece of gear they "need".

Your system is not "fair" by any means.

If you really want to use that apparent math brain of yours (which I am beginning to see through), the chance of obtaining an item that a GC seal hunter currently needs, already far outweights that an item a newbie who is levelling a Tank needs.
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Using left side only for time and simplicity sake -
There are currently 7 types of gear. Fending, Healing, Striking, Maiming, Aiming, Scouting, Casting.

Let's say for example I need gear for a tank.
Currently there is roughly 14% (or 1/7th) chance that a piece of gear will drop (left side) for the class I am on. I get 100% of that 14% chance. So my chance of obtaining something I actually need for my desired purpose is 14%.

Now let's say I need GC seals, but I queue on a tank.
I already have 14% chance (as we discovered from the previous note) to get a left side piece.
In addition to that, there is a worst case scenario of 4 potential gear sets to be claimed by people in the dungeon (including myself). This leaves me with 3/7 ADDITIONAL pieces that I have 25% chance at getting.
This means that I have an ADDITIONAL 25% chance at obtaining 42% of the extra loot that no one can NEED on. Which for your information, is roughly 10% chance of obtaining additional loot that I can potentially win.

Current system-
So guy that needs tank gear - 14% chance of getting what they need.
Guy that needs seals - 14% + 10% = 24% chance of getting what they need.
(Very rough/quick math that doesn't require a fancy equation).
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Now let's remove the entire priority system (like you are "suggesting")...

Guy needs Tank gear and queues on tank.
Everyone can Need, meaning this guy has 25% chance of 14% (as Tanks can't run around in healing gear or anything...) of what he actually NEEDS for his purpose. The whole purpose he is doing the dungeon.
That is 3.5% chance that he will get something he actually needs.

Guy is hunting for seals and queues on tank.
As his needs aren't specific, he has 25% chance at getting 100% of getting something that he needs, and is the whole purpose of doing the dungeon.
That is 25% chance that he will get something he needs.

So under your "suggestion" -
Guy needs tank gear - 3.5% chance of getting what they need.
Guy that needs seals - 25% chance of getting what they need

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If you claim it is a disadvantage and want a benefit at others’ expense you need some good reason to attribute greater value to this need than all others, which goes against what you and others have attested in needing items “just as much”. The requirement for being on the job/class/role is only a side-effect of the current system, and is eliminated in my suggestion.

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There is already a benefit to those that don't need that gear for a particular slot, as I have already shown you multiple times, with super simple math and no fancy equation necessary..

In addition to this - they already have just as much freedom to roll NEED on an item that gives them priority, just like the others in the party can do for their class..

I need GC seals however the loot table already benenefits this, as these options are far greater than those of a specific class. I am quite happy, just like everyone else who laughs at your "suggestion" to have a gaurentee at 1/7th of the loot table (with NEED for the class I am playing) in addition to 25% chance of the 3/7ths (worst case) of the gear that is not NEED claimed by classes that aren't in the dungeon..

GC seals hunters already have the advantage. No need to give them a bigger lead.

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Rubbish sub-5% is what everyone gets currently too: for every person that can roll need and get an item there are 3 or 7 ppl who don’t get it. Except now it’s also skewed, favouring specific classes/jobs at the expense of others, pushing ppl in the class/job they should be playing if they want more loot (not just specific items). It’s only an illusion of choice; the choice itself is rigged.

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Again, see above. *Yawn*
Your "math" is really failing your point.

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If anything, I wouldn’t expect “asking politely in the dungeon if people are willing to give them specific pieces” to become more of a burden compared to what it is now, especially if it was expected.

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As has been said time and time again - you are then forced to be at the mercy of the other players in your party, and cannot do anything to increase your priority on the certain pieces you want.

You once again, are going round in a gigantic circle with absolutely no tangible way of rebuttling this argument.

You can ask, but that doesn't mean that guy that wants to be an a-hole/loot whore and lot on everything anyway. The current system at least allows you to prevent that, by prioritizing gear that is can only be equipped by a certain class - to that very class that can equip it.

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And this would be the case if:
(a) I had not written that it benefits everyone to the same extent :

See the “to the same extent” part there in bold? It’s on the first line. See the “It is exactly the same for everyone.”? It’s on the last line.
AND
(b) This statement (“I see no problem with that. It's the same as when a piece doesn't correspond to anyone's class/job in the current system.”) indicates a need-case specific predilect outcome of asking the party to roll greed/pass.

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It is NOT the same. It is already skewed in favour of someone who doesn't need specific pieces of gear. Just becacuse they have 25% chance on everything, does not mean that their chance of fulfilling their needs are equal. All you are suggesting is to dramatically skew it in favour of people who do not need specific items, which is literally only the people who are turning in items for GC seals.

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And it so happens that the aforementioned statement does not influence whether others will roll greed/pass when requested.
Sorry to inform you that there is no contradiction there.

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This only further harms your point.

The people who PASS on items primarily benefit people who are seeking non-specific items. Those of which are already have a skewed favour for obtaining loot for their needed purpose.

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No, they are at the mercy of RNG, and communication with the party may reduce RNG’s contribution.

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They are already at the mercy of RNG, in the case that a piece of gear that they need for their current role drops. You're just double dipping RNG here, and adding a further layer to the loot system with the "good of the community" and the kindness of strangers. Which again, I am not willing to trust the community on this one.

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Needing loot is legitimate for all its uses (gearing classes/jobs, glamours, desynth, seals) and is valued the same for every case (there are quite a few references to this by others just in this thread). You can’t preferentially treat some as greed. And my suggestion treats all equally.

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Yes it is, however the ability to use the gear is limited based on role, and the only person that benefits from unrestriction of loot priority are those that hunt for seals.
- Jobs can only equip specific gear (for glamour or stats).
- Crafts can only desynth certain gear.

GC seals? Yeah that can be anything...

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Normally I love discussions with people but maybe it would be better to just ignore her? I mean I read through the argument and I just cant understand how this system would benefit anyone..yet even though many people already posted counter arguments, its still a never ending story. Better to just not answer I think?

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But it is so fun and entertaining !

Okay I agree its kinda funny reading those posts but at the same time I need so many more hands for my epic facepalms that I do when I read them. Its like an accident that you dont want to watch but do it anyway. :'D

(Now I am going against my own sentence..damn me!!)

I am also not really sure what is so unbalanced and unfair in the current system? Anyone that gets into the dungeon has the chance to roll need on the gear that is for their own class. Lots of people also already posted that they will greed or pass if there is a newbie with the same class or that needs it for another class. So if I need better equipment with my bard I will just go into a dungeon with my bard and hope for the drop and if it comes and I am the only one I have guaranteed loot. The more "fair" system with an always "need" button would mean that I go into it as a bard..and hope that everyone else is nice and does not roll onto the loot that only really benefits my equipment anyway..How is this better? So instead of just hoping that even my loot drops, I at the same time would need to hope that everyone would just pass on it or even have to ask at every single item..even though its for the class I am playing?

This is especially bad for newer players..can you imagine a new tank..they need good equipment to survive better, they run dungeons, are already nervous enough because they are new at tanking..and than on top of that they have to ask the other players if they will pass on every gear that is for tanks..maybe this is someone that does not even speak English? Or had some bad experience and are afraid to ask? Maybe you will have some really mean other players that will roll on need all the time..this might mean that someone can not even equip their main class and might stop playing after some time thanks to frustration..

So how exactly is this better? (And for once maybe you should leave all your numbers behind and just try to look it at that way..)

In our current system the newbie tank will always get their loot if it drops thanks to being the only tank in a 4 man dungeon and thus also the only one that can need. All the other people at the same time can still greed on everything else that is not their main class and can need on those things that its for their class. How is that unfair?

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Originally Posted by Cordie

I didn't base my suggestion on a heavily imbalanced system like the current one, so I wouldn't seek to selectively boost the rewards for 1 or 2 cases of needing gear at the expense of all others!

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meaning you don't live in a world where people have choice and agency. you pretend the selection is random when it's not. the player CHOOSES to play that job. yes, i choose to tank so i can get better chances at desynthesizing armorer gear, since you want to take choice away from people, you are anti-freedom.

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Originally Posted by Bloody

Cordie, I think at this point, you are so consumed by the "fairness" of your idea being better than the current system

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reads like communism.

Cordelia, you are trying to complicate a system that I believe is fine by it is. Maybe with just some minor adjustments not what seems like a overhaul.. an example being the old diadem. When you complicate it till this extent the new players will struggle to understand how it works. Why can't it be this simple, "if I joined the party with the respective class I deserve to roll for what I am entitled to need for".

This thread has completely blown out of proportion, seriously. I'm not the only person who wants to gear alts (or close to maxing the alts they want to play) and sure there are times where loots goes to the people who need is less, sure you be ethical and call out for the loots you need before hand. But really this thread never needed to hit 34 pages, the only reason it does is because people are way too adamant about having a system that WORKS for them, not in the interest of everyone.

And OP there's already a " I deserve to roll for everything because no one need grand company seals or glamour" system it's called Lootmaster. Form your own party with respective system in place and proceed to roll everything for yourself.