A lot of the sentiment in this thread really push my buttons. I spent years in FFXI not being able to finish plotlines because it was so hard to find help if you didn't have a good linkshell. The 'content' in that game was mostly sitting in towns looking for parties to do literally anything, including level, which was done by fighting the same mobs over and over for hours. Let's please not ever go back to that.
There is a definite survivorship bias to these sentiments. If you had a good group in FFXI and did a lot of high-end content, the game was great. However, most people didn't, which is why, while the game did great numbers for a pre-WoW MMO, it peaked at less than 5% of WoW's subscribership. Having content only some people can ever do is a bad thing, because it turns away more players than it attracts.
To directly address the title of the thread, Yoshi P is turning his back on you because he doesn't need you. You're either going to stick around no matter what happens to the game, or maybe you'll quit. You - meaning those looking for hardcore, exclusive, top-end content in this case - are a small minority, but you pay the same subscription fee as the larger numbers who don't want those things and see them as a negative. (or in many cases think they want these things, but would be driven away from the game if they actually became reality)
Honestly, if you want a hardcore MMO, that's great - but it's not going to be Final Fantasy XIV. This is a game which Square spent a ton of money to reboot from the ground up rather than allow it to fail. They are looking for a big audience, and that means lowest-common-denominator content. Hardcore MMOs are a niche, so please go track down a niche game instead of trying to get them to ruin a game I, and many others, still quite like. Thanks!
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10-14-2016, 05:00 AMTalraen
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10-14-2016, 06:31 AMReynhartAs long as the Duty Finder exists and people use it to gain experience or other rewards, this problem will never arise in XIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talraen
Besides, in FFXI, you couldn't progress without having at least three hours to spare. Any less, and you're back to square one. XIV doesn't design its content that way. We may want more challenging content, but we don't ask for 2 hours dungeons that you must do in one setting.
Problem is, you don't know that. As you said, most of us are still paying for the game wether we like its design or not, because we've already invested time in it. But no one can say exactly how many subscriptions will be lost if every unpleased player quit the game. And it would be a great mistake to think than only harcore players have issues with the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talraen
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10-14-2016, 12:29 PMTalraen
Of course it's not only the hardcore players who have issues, but making the game more hardcore is not the solution to their issues.
The reason these hardcore games are so well loved is because the people who didn't love them stopped playing them entirely. For example, I loved 1.0. And I don't mean 1.23, I mean the original release, particularly it's completely unapproachable and ridiculous crafting system. That was totally my jam. Does the fact that a few hundred people (if I'm being generous) thought this was the greatest system ever mean that it was a good system? Of course not, because the vast majority of people hated it. It's easy to cater to a small group who will love your game, but if the vast majority stop playing as a result, you've still failed.
FFXIV, flawed as it is, is more popular than FFXI ever was. What possible basis do you have to conclude that making a popular game more like a less popular game will improve its popularity? -
10-14-2016, 02:19 PMReynhartWe don't. However, we're pretty sure that keeping the same formula over and over and over again will make it boring for everyone sooner or later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talraen
And that "We're keeping the same formula because we don't want people feeling encouraged to put more hours into the game" is a crappy excuse for an MMO producer. -
10-14-2016, 02:29 PMShai
If I may be allowed to paraphrase Fizzle...
I think the real gripe here isn't that SE owes us more. It's that they never delivered what was promised. The promises have been outlined in this thread. Various people have mentioned the general sentiment of the paying Legacy members of 1.0. We were led to believe that ARR would be the end result of the work done on 1.23B. Yes. We voted to scrap Tanaka's XIV and rebuild the game, but that's what we thought Yoshida was doing. We thought when the game came back online it would ... resemble the game he had been "rebuilding" that we were playing. News flash: It doesn't. I'm not weighing in on whether that was good or bad, but I will tell you it felt like he was practically begging us to hang in there and wait for what we were all waiting for - then surprised us with what ARR is today.
He pleaded with us to hang in there and to trust him for a better future. We liked the game and wanted it to succeed so we listened. He rewarded us with ... this.
Do I think I'm owed something beside a discount? No, not really. Do I feel like I was tricked? Yes, I certainly do.
To be quite honest with you, I don't even believe the results of the 1.0 polls. Maybe that's just the conspiracy theorist in me, but there's no accountability. We could have "voted" for whatever they say we voted for. I could ask you all to vote on whether ARR is a good game, you email me your votes, and come back without any evidence saying you hate ARR in a landslide! That's basically what they did with 1.0 polls. It was all hidden, but people still toss the polls around as if they were real community agendas. -
10-14-2016, 02:41 PMChiramuARR was a success. I have no problems with ARR aside from the slow main story up to the 2.0 ending(the writing got better paced after that). My problem lies with the tedium of Heavensward. When we all entered it was all good, it was new and we had lots to do. At level 60 it was fine, we had the goal of attaining the gear set with tomestones. Esoterics were released and we could get the armour shown to us in the trailer. Then, the next set of tomestones and the next gearset. Maybe the grind in ARR wasn't as bad as HW because the dungeons were more fun to run?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
But the problem was never ARR. -
10-14-2016, 02:46 PMShaiUm. What?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiramu
I said: I could poll you. You email me your votes. Then I come back and say the vast majority of you all hate it and want me to throw it away and make a new game. This is effectively what Yoshida did. There's no accountability. No 3rd party counting the votes. It was an online poll. The results could be whatever Square Enix wanted them to be.
Do people read before they leap to the defense of XIV? I never said anything about the quality of ARR and I make no distinction between ARR and HW unless we're talking about the MSQ content because they are literally the exact same thing. Grind Tomes Reborn. -
10-14-2016, 02:57 PMChiramuDid you read before you quoted me? I never defended FFXIV, ARR was a good game. We are in Heavensward, if you have a problem, it is with Heavensward or you are stuck in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
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10-14-2016, 04:25 PMReynhartQuote:
Originally Posted by Shai
I also thinks Heavensward is the problem. Frankly, Shai, when ARR was released, did you really feel tricked ? The more interesting zones, the faster combat system where you don't have to wait for your TP to build, the more mechanic-oriented boss fights, the more stable and more responding servers, the less reliance on RNG for just about everything in the game...did you really feel tricked at that time ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiramu
I think what tricked us is that Yoshi-P literally said that HW would be the time to remove the kid's glove, and indeed, it was...for Alex Savage...but for everything else, HW is weaker than ARR. The only thing that I think most people will agree is that the story is far better (Sultana's plot notwithstanding) , and I think this is also tied to 1.xx.
Lots of characters and plot points in ARR where sequels of 1.xx, so that new players probably had a hard time connecting with those. The scions' past, Gaius, and the whole Bahamut's presence didn't mean much for them. For us Legacy players, however, every twist gave us a big grin. Seeing F'lhammin again, seeing Nael and Louisoix in Coil (Turn 9 is literally a love letter to us), fulfilling the long promise that we'll enter Ishgard, etc...that was also part of our "reward".
To be honest, when I saw HW mutliple trailers, with a darker mood, big zones where you'll fly to explore, etc...I thought that HW would be very different from ARR and I was thrilled...months later, I realized that this was painfully the same game in every aspect. -
10-14-2016, 04:42 PMShaiWhat the heck are you talking about? Why are you quoting me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiramu
You aren't even responding to what I'm saying.
It's like I'm saying "Hey, the sky is a nice shade of blue."
And you're saying "Apples are green, man. They're green."
I don't understand you. -
10-14-2016, 04:47 PMShaiI had a brief honeymoon period with ARR - I'll be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
But I did feel tricked. Probably by December. Around the time Crystal Tower was released.
I think by that first patch a lot of the wonder - a lot of the "new car smell" had gone away and I missed 1.0 and what I hoped ARR would really be.
I hoped Heavensward would make the game better, but it only perpetuated the status quo. Now it looks like 4.0 will just be more of the same.
That's disappointing. Severely.
I loved Coil. Do not get me wrong. Coil is/was the highlight of this game so far.
But Coil is (in essence) a conclusion to 1.0 and everything that made 1.0 remotely interesting.
Honestly - the games true flaws only become jarringly apparent when you hit end game - and your mileage there may vary. The ARR story isn't very good. It isn't as good as 1.0 and it certainly isn't as good as HW. Despite that, I think that the game to a beginner is quite fun. I've started several alts just to level them to 30 and discard them over the years because the early parts of this game are still good. Before you hit the end and fall into a weekly slog of doing the same thing over and over. The sense of discovery and unlocking things and gradually becoming the role you were destined to be (not in the story mind you, but as your skills develop on your class) - all of this is pretty good. Though coming to this game as Legacy with all jobs @50 - I only got to experience this on Arcanist (which due to the whole "Summoner debacle" that I won't detail was a pretty big disappointment). That is to say until I decided to make new characters and really got to experience the game from a new player's perspective. -
10-14-2016, 04:53 PMReynhartCrystal Tower ?! Wow, that's early. At that time, we didn't even knew that we'd be farming new tomestones over and over every 6 months, nor the rigid patch cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
Besides, 2.1 really brought a lot of things with Alliance raids, Housing, PvP, the EX primals, Hildibrand, the daily quests...
You're quite a demanding customer :p
That indeed might have been a problem. I only had 3 jobs lvl 50 in 1.xx, so I had lots of things to try on my character while progressing on the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
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10-14-2016, 05:03 PMHyrist
No offense Shai, but you're can't exactly just automatically claim that you'd be a fair third party for some sort of check against Yoshida.
Anyways, vocal minority and whatnot. I don't often speak about ARR to 1.0. But while the seriese of 1.xx leading up to ARR will always have a special place in my heart. I voted for a vast departure from 1.xx along with the majority of the Legacy Players who took part in the polling. I don't feel betrayed.
But there's no way to accurately measure that now. Only SE has the true account for all Legacy members, so trying to make a public poll is going to give you unverifiable false-positives and false-negatives. Nor, honestly at this juncture does it really matter.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
On to the more broader subject... (Not referring to Shai past this point)
The game is three years old. It is going to bleed people, as all aging games, even MMOs do. What I find funny about this thread is the assumption that 'people who love this game the most' is something quantifiable. How do you measure such a thing? Do I need to get my Legacy Tatoo put on my RL back to prove 'I love it the most'? Or is it based off subscription? In which case, I can tell you I've bought every collectors Edition since 1.xx and have not yet lapsed my subscription since I started. Does that make me love the game the most?
If so, you should probably know that my sentiments agree with Yoshida with most of his stances. But even if they did, that wouldn't be 'turning his back' on me. I'm not so shallow as to take something like a business decision personally. I feel like there's a lot of naivete going on around here when it comes to business relationships and fandoms.
I've various amounts of criticisms on how Yoshida has executed on his ideals, as well as some disagreements with those ideals. But never have I considered it a betrayal. So the answer the thread title - it's because players assume everything surrounds them on a personal level - and it never really was a 'turning his back' to begin with.
However, I never considered myself someone 'who loves the game the most' nor do I feel like anyone could really quantify that. It's kind of the wrong foot to start this discussion on, seriously. -
10-14-2016, 05:04 PMShai
Funny you mention Housing - the biggest PR blunder 2.0 stumbled into!
I don't know. I'm an analytical thinker. I look at the pieces and analyze what it means for the future. It's a gift and a curse cause it makes me pretty cyncical.
That said, I also did not know Tomestones would be the end-all of our gear progression experience. I didn't realize at Labyrinth of the Ancients that the formula would just repeat forever until I decided to walk away (which I haven't yet - came REAL close during Alexander 1-4 cycle). There was no real way to predict that and I wasn't truly disappointed by that until Heavensward. It was frustrating by the time 2.0 came to an end, but expansions promise "new things" and opportunities to generate new ideas - but they just didn't. That's when the Tome Grind Reborn really got to me and made me discouraged about the future of this game - as it is.
But I'm talking about that moment when I realized ARR was never going to be what I felt (perhaps naively) I was led to believe it would be. I used to hate Tanaka for his empty promises and bold-faced lies, but now I see Yoshida do it and no one holds him to the same standard. They continue to parade him around like the Jesus of Eorzea - back from the dead! He did some amazing things by taking a failed MMO and turning it into one of the most successful pay-to-play games on the market. Props to him. As I said in my initial post (I think) I get that they're just following the money and that makes sense, but they did use my money under the pretense they were recreating a game I really liked into a better version of itself - and from my point of view this promise was not fulfilled. To a lot of people it probably was.
I'm not like Skizzle or Fizzle who continue to dredge up these butt hurt feelings to stir up the pot and generate self-validating conversations. I agree with their sentiment, but the question really is "Do you want the game to succeed, make money, continue to generate [albeit generic, regurgitated] content? or did you want them to make another flop that you can tell all your friends was the greatest game ever for the six months it lasted?" It's a pretty crappy choice, but that's what it all boiled down to. This game is a success because of its business model, and no other model would really result in the type of success this game currently has. -
10-14-2016, 05:11 PMHyrist
Not to harp on you Skai, as it's just coincidental, but I've noted in my tenure here that I've heard more collective negativity from Hyperion server than I have heard from any other server in this game on these boards. It's just an observation, but it brings to mind a theory to me that Community is a larger influence on the game's enjoyment than most give credit for. We often fall to blaming the content, or lack of content, or type of content, or execution of content, etc. But often I've seen that people who spend time in miserable company, often tend to be more miserable themselves.
Meanwhile, when I'm with excited players, even with all the flaws the game has, that excitement can be catching. I've often wondered why we don't put more effort and attention on improving our communities in games like these, and I feel the more I observe it, that the more I feel it's a critical, and vastly overlooked issue. -
10-14-2016, 05:12 PMShaiEveryone seems to be missing my point. I'm not claiming to be a fair third party. I'm saying in the absence of an unbiased third party, in the absence of an open ballot - all we know is what Square Enix told us! I'm not saying there -is- a conspiracy, but I am saying that I feel like the only person on Earth who finds it weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
We did a secret ballot and Yoshida posted the results. Yoshida could have said anything. Honestly. My analogy was saying I could ask you all to email me your votes on the current game, I [pretend to] tally up the votes [but secretly don't even read them cause they are irrelevant], then come back here and announce you all hate the game [erroneously] and now I have the freedom to do whatever I want with impunity and blame it on you guys for voting for it. There's no accountability to those 1.0 polls. Again, I'm not saying it was fraudulent. I'm just saying those polls could have easily been faked - and we have clung to them for years to say "This is what fans wanted!" Is it? Who knows?
Edit to reply to 2nd post:
I don't feel harped on. We're just having a conversation. I'm open to dialogue.
I was referred to this post by someone on Hyperion in the Novice Network.
So obviously the sentiments are reflected by a vocal population of Hyperion.
I agree with the sentiment of the OP and his cohorts, but I also know why this game is the way it is and why it won't change. -
10-14-2016, 05:14 PMReynhartThere's a way to measure people who don't like where the game is going, but only if those people actually take actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
As I said earlier, if 4.0 is just a reskinned 3.0 (wich is just a reskinned 2.0), I'll unsubscribe between each patch. One month is far enough to do every content (Except Savage but, for now, I don't care now and probablly won't in 4.x...) and prepare for the next patch.
Problem is, 1.0 was a remarkable commercial flop. I'm not sure that even if every Legacy player actually liked the game, we'd have been enough to keep it alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
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10-14-2016, 05:23 PMShaiNo, definitely not. The poll basically asked "should I fix this game" or "should I make a new game."Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
I voted "fix the game" and most of my friends (less than 1% of the player base, I'm sure) voted "fix the game."
Then results were posted and "Make a new game" won by an alleged landslide - according to Yoshida.
It was weird to me - like voting for Al Gore and him winning the popular vote but waking up the next day and George Bush is President!
No, speaking seriously - I realize that I was in the minority but I also realized in that moment - Who looked at the poll results? Who tallied them? Who is reporting on them? There's a reason elections (outside of China) aren't run this way. The person running the poll controls all the information and thus can present any results that suit his agenda. Maybe his agenda all along was to build ARR, and the poll was just to make us feel like it was our grand idea. Maybe. Who knows? You don't know. I don't know. That's the inherent flaw of a secret ballot without any checks or balances in place. The results are subject to the whims of the poll taker.
Again, I restate, I'm not saying it was a good or bad decision to take 1.0 in a new direction and make ARR. Obviously, it was financially successful, and obviously -subjectively- to SE that's "a good direction" but is it what fans wanted? Who can really say? I can't and neither can Fizzle. -
10-14-2016, 05:38 PMReynhartThe thing is, the game was never "fixed" even during 1.xx lifespan. Stats point distribution wasn't fixed, it was changed. Leveling system (with physical and rank) was not fixed, it was changed, cross-classing was not fixed, it was changed, attack system was not fixed, it was changed (Damn, auto-attack is so boring...)...so, even before the poll, it was pretty clear what Yoshi-P would do with the game. It's still a wonder we kept the armory system, and Yoshida mentionned several times that he would gladly change it...instead of fixing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
But, for a commercial standpoint, it's pretty understandable. You can market a "new" game to quitting players or players who were just not interested. "Patching" it would have been received with a lot more suspicion. -
10-14-2016, 05:39 PMShaiSo you see my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
I know those things weren't "fixed" and we [allegedly] didn't vote to "fix" - we voted to "build a new game."
He built an entirely new combat system for 1.0 which he then ... threw away (?) to build what ARR has.
Why?
This is part of why we [myself and MY cohorts] were led to believe the changes being made in 1.0 would reflect the changes of ARR. That when ARR launched it would resemble some form of continuation of all Yoshida's hard work to transform 1.0 into a playable and [arguably] fun game. This is why I felt tricked. He was making these bold changes to 1.0 while 1.0 was still live and then just threw THAT away to launch ARR. It felt then and even now like 1.0 was milked for money to make ARR and those people (the 1.0 players) were otherwise irrelevant. Cast off. What we thought we were investing in was never going to exist.
You are only emphasizing exactly WHY I feel tricked and why Fizzle feels like the people who cared most got the shaft.
The difference between me and the OP is that I understand and accept WHY we got the shaft. We're not profitable. Bottom line.
I don't like it, but it's not about me. It's about the future of Square Enix and Final Fantasy. -
10-14-2016, 06:30 PMBalipuThat's exactly the problem, kupo. All but the most blind of us agree that the game needs changes. Problem is, most critics go on hyperbolic rants about Yoshida being some malevolent being who ruins the childhood of every special snowflake who is more imprtant than the other players, or just bash features that aren't even out yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
So understandably a lot of people say: "F*ck haters, the game is fine as it is." And the game is fine. Sometimes it's pretty awesome. I still consider it the best MMO out there. But it could be better. There are only two problems.
1) Yoshie-P has a boss to answer to and money to make.
2) The rest of the playerbase might not agree with my subjective oppinion on what needs to be done to make the game "better". -
10-14-2016, 07:49 PMFizzleofHyperion
I'm capable enough to understand business, and I'm fully aware of everything that fits in that folder.
What I'm trying to say is, is the game really worth just going straight profit at the expence of killing the heart of the game to reach out to a customer group that are only here because this game is trending?
That is why I feel let down and that Yoshi P is turning his back ont he community that beleived in his plea and how he went 360 on everyone by delivering something I think 1.0 players never really wanted?
This is excluding everything else that I still consider is wrong with this game, mindless hamsterwheel grinding on repeat, big world maps that are pretty much empty, unpersonal envoirment where you don't feel like you belong in your server and spend more time afk at your house waiting for DF to pop than doing things etc etc -
10-14-2016, 08:03 PMUnaLihzeh
If the game doesn't appeal to new players, then you don't get new players. If you don't get new players, you don't make enough money to keep servers on, especially when adding more of the features the community as a whole want. If the servers don't stay on, no one gets to play anymore, including 1.0 people. This is why every game in existence appeals to new players, because it's not as if original players don't leave games. You have to replace the ones who leave, or the game closes.
And I'm sure this has been said because I didn't read all 35 pages of this thing, but I'm pretty sure you are projecting your personal tastes onto 1.0 players, cause I know quite a lot of 1.0 players and they don't have this "abandoned" feeling you have. And LOL at 1.0 players being "the ones that love this game the most". -
10-14-2016, 08:27 PMADVSS
[QUOTE=FizzleofHyperion;3891852]I'm capable enough to understand business, and I'm fully aware of everything that fits in that folder.
What I'm trying to say is, is the game really worth just going straight profit at the expence of killing the heart of the game to reach out to a customer group that are only here because this game is trending?
/QUOTE]
just sticking around till ff7 remake is done, lets be real here, stripped down, play it safe repeat what happened 3 years in a row, im just sticking around to support the big projects, at this point either 6 mil subs is a lie or theyre making 10x that in profits, outside of cash shop expenses(yeah fantasia every day guise! \o/) You understand business, so do the rest of...well most of us i hope . -
10-14-2016, 08:29 PMReynhartTechnically, he built the new system upon the ancient one. He brought jobs, auto-attack, fused shield and sword in a single skill set, removed the physical level so that your stats are only determined by your job, etc...The evolution between 1.19 through 1.23 was a big hint for where the game would go, even before the poll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
But new players aren't concerned by our problems. When you start the game, you have everything to discover, a lot of leveling to do, a lot of content to explore. By the time you're lvl 60 in several job and log in just to do your daily routine, you're hardly a "new player" anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by UnaLihzeh
That's the same as the famous "PLD is supposed to be an entry tank". Ok, you can say that when people are below or at lvl 30 and slowly learning their role...by the time they get to level 60, they shouldn't be "entry players". And if you treat them like that, they'll continue playing like that, and never evolve.
How can you explain that 3.4 dungeons are more easy that dungeons like Dzemael, Cutter's Cry or Aurum Vale ?
This remind me of the flame war about HW being gated behind 2.55, and new players complaining that they can't access new content. If you're a new players, everything is new content to you. -
10-14-2016, 09:12 PMTalraen
I don't remember much about the discussion in the legacy days, but even if 80% of the playerbase voted to "fix" the game and they decided to mess with the poll and make a new one anyway, I'm glad they did (not that I think that's what actually happened). I liked 1.0, but let's be honest, the game was a punchline. It was considered one of the biggest high-profile flops that had ever happened. I thought they were insane to try to save it. And yes, I give Yoshi P and Square Enix a lot of credit for somehow doing so, and I will forgive them quite a bit as a result.
As for why Yoshi P changed everything in 1.x and then changed it again for 2.0, I think it's just the matter of the game engine. They communicated repeatedly that the 1.0 game engine had to be completely revamped for a variety of reasons. I think it's less that they changed things to what they wanted and then changed their minds for 2.0, than that they made 1.0 as much like their vision for 2.0 as they could, and then completed that vision once they were able to build the engine from scratch.
So... you don't like when they play it safe, but you're waiting for a remake of an old, popular game? OK then.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
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10-14-2016, 09:43 PMReynhartYes, it was. But people tend to consider 1.0 and 1.23 as the exact same game. Frankly, there are almost as much disparities between 1.0 and 1.23 than between 1.23 and 2.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talraen
And certainly more between 1.0 and 1.23 than between 2.0 and 3.0 :p -
10-14-2016, 10:02 PMADVSSSome of it was sarcasm, but honestly i dont mind, i love the franchise, and i know this game can do better. It isnt the worst mmorpg out there by far, and there are tons of things i love about this game, but there can most definitely be improvements, easilly seen by those who have seen much of the same old, or, even better had a priviledge of experiencing the game when it was half of this and half of that(which built up the foundation of this, but seemingly less restrictive) So yes im against playing it safe for so long, and yes i am fine with this funding future projects but in no way would i ludicrously buy a 130$ statue for an emote(please refrain arguments i read the thread and yes im not a collector so the emote doesnt matter at all to me). So in short, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talraen
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10-14-2016, 11:27 PMBlackbird1
just dont play the game everyday and you'll be fine yoshi said as much this game isnt designed to cater only to the hard core elitists if you dont play it every hour of the everyday you'll be fine. if you got issues with the dungeons get a job at SE and start designing new ones for them to use instead of the so called dungeon repeats. It's not easy making this stuff to begin with so learn to be happy with what you get sure MSQ fillers are a pain in the ass but it's like the build up to the next fun thing so
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10-14-2016, 11:40 PMIstaru
I have mixed and conflicting emotions and feelings about the state of the game.
I do not want another 3 years of the tomestone grind and knowing what is happening and when. I'm tired of it and it makes me want to cry if that is all we will ever get is nothing more than mostly faceroll weekly lockout gear unless it is about a month until it is to be replaced. I no longer have any elation or joy at getting new gear. I don't care anymore and I used to, but I understand why they have them.
I understand that an MMO needs new players. The lack of new player retention is a problem that FFXI and 1.x both had and something they wanted to correct with this game. I understand that a new player that sees a long progression path to get "current" is more likely to toss up their arms and walk away.
They have created the opposite problem now. I feel they have a veteran retention problem.
I do not feel the same bonds to my character that I did before, and especially to the people around me. I have become too used to spending time with other people on a regular basis and consider them to be something of a friend and then watch them leave and never return.
I know the unofficial census is just that, unofficial.
However, it does concern me that we maintain a constant 30-35% new payer population but outside of an expansion our total seems to stay the same or goes down. If it is going down, then veterans are quitting faster than we can get new people to try the game. MMO population ebb and flow and such. I get that.
This is my concern, eventually that 100,000-150,000 new players every few months dries up. If you continue to bleed veterans and cannot infuse your game with enough new players to balance that, your game dies at a certain point. I am not stating that we are there or close to there.
I do not see another 3 years of the same pattern doing anything to increase veteran retention. In his comments when asked about returning unique stats s to the game, I think he did say that he would a long time ago, he looked at it from the new player perspective. His concern is about making it required for new people to slog their way to be current. Without reasons to stay, and making it so easy to catch up, there really isn't much reason to stay subscribed. So people take breaks from the game on a personal basis. Problem is that not every one that decides to take a break from the game comes back. Even if they originally intended to.
I don't really see Yoshida's actions and focus as him turning his back on us. I see it more that he has a bit of tunnel vision for getting more people to play the game and trying to include everyone in everything. I think they are very lofty goals, but unfortunately, I do not feel that they are sustainable forever.
I used to love this game. I still like it but all the lockouts and gates and the constant moving of the goalposts has sucked a lot of that excitement from me.
What I have heard regarding the future direction of the game makes me feel like why bother daring to dream that we can have neat things in this game again.
I want to love this game and feel the fiery passion that I used to. It's just that everything he says is like a torrential downpour on that fire trying to put it out.
I have gone on too long and will end by saying that I still have no plans to leave the game, but I am not very satisfied or excited for where it is at right now and appears to be going. -
10-15-2016, 12:15 AMGardes
I don't really understand why so many people here treat this game like it's a product to sell. Even yoshi himself seems to think so. They keep chanting "we need new players to keep up the servers!" as if they think that if you play long enough, your 15 dollars is now worth less than a new player's 15 dollars. I thought it would be a given that everyone sees this game as a "service as a business" and in service business, retention is number one but apparently I'm wrong. Almost everything they come up with focuses more on catering to new players than regulars and it just feels wrong.
If they insist on treating this game as mainly something to sell to potential 'customers', I would rather them just start selling patches instead of a subscription system. Discount a patch once it gets outdated. -
10-15-2016, 12:19 AMDamianFatale
Can we please kill this thread already.. :/
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10-15-2016, 12:20 AMKhemorexeven if a mod closes it , there always another kid , who feels his candy wasnt sweet enough :PQuote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
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10-15-2016, 12:52 AMZojhaYou aren't wrong - you aren't right either :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Gardes
Retention becomes more important the less potential customers there are. That's not just in service business, but any business. If there's only one person buying your products, you want a really good relationship with him - high retention. That's your key account, he matters, keep him by any means necessary. If there are millions and millions behind that standing in line, building such relationships would just be a waste of time, you rather want a lot of brief meetings, especially if they're all worth the same. If somebody goes or stays doesn't really matter.
What will happen if you go the latter route however is that eventually, you'll reach a point where you want to focus on retention more, because there aren't that many new people left. And that can be quite tricky. I'd say WoW is in that phase right now. -
10-15-2016, 02:23 AMBourne_EndeavorIn a word, yes. Bear in mind, Yoshi is limited by Square Enix. A good reason XIV has remained "sage" is likely because budget concerns do not allow for much experimentation. Say what you will about LoV or Diadem, but look at the state it left 3.1 in. They essentially had a patch cycle where Thordan EX was all most people bothered with. Investors couldn't care less about the "heart" of a game; only about its profit margin. And seeing Yoshi must answer to them, he cannot do whatever he wants. In fact, he's gone on report more than a few times of wanting to release an expansion every year or so. Nonetheless, you also have to consider what you may find a betrayal other people will not. Your opinion doesn't supersede theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion
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10-15-2016, 02:44 AMLiaShan
Just look at Apple & those Japanese companies (Toshiba, SHARP,SONY),
they are going downhill because they are focusing on profit not the product quality anymore
A shortsighted president/director/developer will ultimately destroy Final Fantasy title & SE -
10-15-2016, 03:10 AMFizzleofHyperion
LiaShan: Atleast you are one of the few who gets it. Alot here would eat anything Yoshi P feeds them. How much you want to bet that the new DNC class is going to be a straight disaster? Like Ninja seems to have all THF abilities i wouldnt be surprised if DNC starts to cast magic LOL
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10-15-2016, 03:36 AMMilesSaintboroguh
Then why keep looking forward to the game if you already determined it will fail?
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10-15-2016, 03:50 AMFizzleofHyperion
Miessaintborough: are you watching the stream right now? It is beyond a disappointment. Don't have too high expectations it will still be the same thing. LiaShan said profit will damage the quality :)
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10-15-2016, 04:18 AMRemediShare the sentiment it's completely pointless to continue debating, If ppl really need to vent their opinion this way, while berating anyone who don't agree with them they should open a blogQuote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale