New Jobs Gated Behind Completion of 2.0 Story?

Well they announced that you can level to 60 without any cap so now you can probably just faceroll the entire story at level 51-60 with nq gear.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

You expect new people to access to the jobs and new content right off the bat, yea ok. They need to work for it like everyone else did. What makes them so special that they get skip content when I couldn't

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Uhhh...yeah you kinda want the new people to access the jobs and new content right off the bat, because it's what new players MUST purchase to fully play the entire game AFTER the expansion comes out, eventually making it a mandatory purchase. If they don't, they will be stuck in the 2.00 content for a large amount of time trying to complete trials and dungeons that nearly nobody is doing as well as acquiring equipment to enter said dungeons.
Or leave the game because of that.

I highly doubt that all the new players will care about the old story and the old dungeons when there's a plethora of new things waiting to be done in the new zone that everyone is wanting to do.
Sure, we worked for it and it took long to complete all of the story and I agree that it should take some work, but I don't think stopping new players to join the new area is a good way to welcome them into the expansion either

However:

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Well, from the Letter, it seems they're going to be adjusting 2.0 content when 3.0 launches. No details yet, but I don't doubt they'll be facilitating new players' completing the story. We do know that 3.0 is when they'll be letting people queue with fewer people, which will already help with the queue times.

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If they actually rework the old content to be easily completed (like solo modes), then this could easily solve the problem of the blockade and people will easily push through in a day or two (even a week is fair enough)

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Originally Posted by Namasu

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I don't play games for the story, I play for the game-play. I am an Everquest player, Everquest players only want two things: "Power, Loot." However that is a completely valid play-style to have in online games. However I am still new, your not - You've never experienced what I have, you have never been "rushed" through content in this game. You've not had constant bickering "WHY ARN'T YOU 50 YET!?" "WHY HAVEN'T YOU DONE YOUR MAIN STORYLINE CONTENT YET?"

Yes, it focuses on player progression. However whenever you add new content to the game you have to raise that bar, and an expansion especially you have to raise the bar up for new players so its the same speed to get up as it was for you. Who cares if you played longer, that just means you have a huge advantage over a new player. You have friends - a guild - and an excellent starting point!

New players don't have that, and if it was advertised that I would have to do 200 quests just to play with my friends I would of never bought the game. However now I put too much work into it and I don't feel like quitting.

Old player "Entitlement" is a blight to a community, always has been. I know you want your extra advantages but if you want to run a successful game or business you need to make the experience better for them, and honestly there COULD be improvement!

By the way, you should never tell another player how to play their game. Its rude. =)

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

But skipping the story, heck no. If they want to play the new stuff then they can buy it and start working on it and be caught up by June.

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Then SE better put "Content in Heavensward can not be accessed until you finish Before the Fall Part 2. This requires you to be level 50 and ilevel 90" in huge bold letters on physical boxes or on the website. That way, new players can decide whether they want to level a Job to 50 and then i90 or just say "stuff it" and not bother buying FFXIV at all.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

Soooo I had to play the full story, pay my monthly subscription, level up other jobs to 50, couldn't move on until I beat certain dungeons, and I still have to wait a few months until I can play the new content. You expect new people to access to the jobs and new content right off the bat, yea ok. They need to work for it like everyone else did. What makes them so special that they get skip content when I couldn't. That would be a slap in the face to everyone else who to had to work for it. Sure they can make things easier so it will be faster to catch up, like they do with patches. But skipping the story, heck no. If they want to play the new stuff then they can buy it and start working on it and be caught up by June.

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True heavensward is a expansion not a stand alone game, there should not be a skip 2.0 content button.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Old player "Entitlement" is a blight to a community, always has been....

By the way, you should never tell another player how to play their game. Its rude. =)

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Perhaps you should tell that to your friends?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

You've not had constant bickering "WHY ARN'T YOU 50 YET!?" "WHY HAVEN'T YOU DONE YOUR MAIN STORYLINE CONTENT YET?"

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By the way, im wondering. In what way is ''old player entitlement'' any different from ''new player entitlement''?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Then SE better put "Content in Heavensward can not be accessed until you finish Before the Fall Part 2. This requires you to be level 50 and ilevel 90" in huge bold letters on physical boxes or on the website. That way, new players can decide whether they want to level a Job to 50 and then i90 or just say "stuff it" and not bother buying FFXIV at all.

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Because it's an EXPANSION, I would expect some form of PROGRESSION to earn access to the EXPANDED CONTENT.

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What logic is there to force a new player to get their Job to Level 50 and iLevel 90 just to unlock the new Level 30 Jobs?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

What logic is there to force a new player to get their Job to Level 50 and iLevel 90 just to unlock the new Level 30 Jobs?

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Because it's new content that's an expansion on the old.

Expansion.

Ex-Pan-Sion.

It makes sense that these advanced Jobs would have some form of prerequisite, especially since they come from the expansion that the 2.x series be completed.

It makes perfect, logical sense... no brand new player should expect to have any access to expansion content without working their way through the prior content in some fashion.

FFXI did not force new players to finish a storyline to unlock new Jobs OR new zones (the only requirement was that you needed to be level 30). Yes, they are two different games, but my point stands that FFXI's expansions DID NOT FORCE NEW PLAYERS to do old content. New players should not feel like they wasted their money the second they realise they can not unlock the New Jobs.

And by that logic, might as well block people from playing as Au Ra until they finish 2.55. That's fair, right?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

What logic is there to force a new player to get their Job to Level 50 and iLevel 90 just to unlock the new Level 30 Jobs?

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What logic is there to buy a game you aren't going to play? >_>

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Originally Posted by Nestama

FFXI did not force new players to finish a storyline to unlock new Jobs OR new zones. Yes, they are two different games, but my point stands that FFXI's expansions DID NOT FORCE NEW PLAYERS to do old content.

And by that logic, might as well block people from playing as Au Ra until they finish 2.55. That's fair, right?

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I seriously don't get why the complaint. If you play FFXIV, then you'll be set for the expansion.

If you don't, why would you expect to earn access to expansion contents without having partaken of 2.x contents first.

Maybe because "FFXI's expansions DID NOT...," but that's a weak reason to feel FFXIV should be forced down the same road.

FFXI != FFXIV.

Besides, it's not that hard to get to completing the MSQ & there is PLENTY of time to have it finished in preparation for Heavensward.

I'm being misunderstood. I am specifically talking about NEW JOBS. People might want to play through the 2.0 storyline as the new Jobs. Why are people so against the idea of letting newbies play as one of the new Jobs (which, currently, require you to be level 50 and item level 90)?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I'm being misunderstood. I am specifically talking about NEW JOBS. People might want to play through the 2.0 storyline as the new Jobs.

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But those new Jobs you speak of are being introduced to the world of Eorzea through post 2.x storyline arc's...............................................

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And ROG/NIN was introduced after 2.3, yet people could play them through the 2.0-2.3 storyline.

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

I seriously don't get why the complaint. If you play FFXIV, then you'll be set for the expansion.

If you don't, why would you expect to earn access to expansion contents without having partaken of 2.x contents first.

Maybe because "FFXI's expansions DID NOT...," but that's a weak reason to feel FFXIV should be forced down the same road.

FFXI != FFXIV.

Besides, it's not that hard to get to completing the MSQ & there is PLENTY of time to have it finished in preparation for Heavensward.

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Here's the thing. It's not JUST FFXI's expansions that didn't make you do this to play new jobs... no MMO does that.

When an MMO releases an expansion that adds a new class, that class is generally available to anyone and everyone that buys and registers the expansion. One notable exception to this was WoW's death knight that required an existing level 55 character on the account to exist. They have not repeated that idea.

Given how FFXIV's job system works, it's reasonable to make a new player level to 30 to unlock something that could be considered an "advanced" job. That's fine. But leveling to 50, doing six patches worth of main story, and grinding out a huge item level requirement from scratch just to gain access to a new job? That's insane. And it removes the three new jobs' ability to be a selling point for the expansion to new players. It's not a selling point anymore, and it really should be because the new jobs look awesome.

Thank you, Callinon.

Pick and choosing words from paragraphs is a pretty silly way to argue with someone. Let me give you an example.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Expansions are not for new players, they are for those that already played the base game.

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Wrong, expansions are to bring fresh content to the game and encourage new players to have a chance to join and be on-par with everyone else. That is exactly why the gear and level cap is raised so new players can get gear on-par with players who have been playing for years. Unless your talking about a Horizontal Progression MMO, which FFXIV is very much not!

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Perhaps you should tell that to your friends?

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If you've actually read what I've said: My friends never told me how to play my class or play the game. I choose how I play thank you. =)

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Originally Posted by Nestama

FFXI did not force new players to finish a storyline to unlock new Jobs OR new zones (the only requirement was that you needed to be level 30).

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Only partially right. Level requirement for new jobs was 30, but all new areas were gated behind story quests.

Tavnazia required completion of Promyvions, Aht Urgahn required quests to unlock ferry access, accessing the past required dicking around with the Maws. Also, some jobs were gated behind those quests because you couldn't even access the areas without completing those quests to get there.

SAM was in the jungle which needed airship pass, Dancer required moving through past and present, BLU COR and PUP required various outpost teleports as well as access to the Whitegate, etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Here's the thing. It's not JUST FFXI's expansions that didn't make you do this to play new jobs... no MMO does that.

...it's not a selling point anymore, and it really should be because the new jobs look awesome.

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FFXI != != WoW != Other MMO's != FFXIV.

I'm just going to fall back to this...

...it's not that hard to get to completing the MSQ & there is PLENTY of time to have it finished in preparation for Heavensward.

Or, plowing through it post-release is a cake-walk if you're objectively focused on completing it.

The selling point is to buy FFXIV & play through it so that you can buy Heavensward & enjoy its expanded contents.

One of the selling points should be the new Jobs, so people should consider buying FFXIV to play through so they can try the awesome expansion it's getting!

There's also the thing of those new Jobs being a fine incentive & reward for playing the game instead of making them into handouts.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Only partially right. Level requirement for new jobs was 30, but all new areas were gated behind story quests.

Tavnazia required completion of Promyvions, Aht Urgahn required quests to unlock ferry access, accessing the past required dicking around with the Maws. Also, some jobs were gated behind those quests because you couldn't even access the areas without completing those quests to get there.

SAM was in the jungle which needed airship pass, Dancer required moving through past and present, BLU COR and PUP required various outpost teleports as well as access to the Whitegate, etc etc.

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But none of them required total completion of the previous expansion.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

But none of them required total completion of the previous expansion.

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Doesn't matter if it required total completion or not, it was still gated behind story quest. So his point was false. Also, half of the crap you had to do in XI was far more tedious than it is here. You can plow through the MSQ in a matter of days given how fast leveling is.

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

FFXI != != WoW != Other MMO's != FFXIV.

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This is not a good place to make FFXIV a unique snowflake.

As to your other point, I've completed the main story thank you very much. I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about the perspective of a brand new player in late June who's never played FFXIV but thinks machinist looks awesome and wants to play.

That guy's going to feel seriously cheated when he gets everything going and finds out exactly what's required to access the job he was interested in playing. And he's going to be right.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

But none of them required total completion of the previous expansion.

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Have they officially said the Job quest givers will be in the Heavensward areas? And whats so terrible about giving new players something to work towards?

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Have they officially said the Job quest givers will be in the Heavensward areas?

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They've said all the job quests for the new jobs will be in Ishgard.

To enter Ishgard requires completion of the 2.55 story.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

This is not a good place to make FFXIV a unique snowflake.

As to your other point, I've completed the main story thank you very much. I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about the perspective of a brand new player in late June who's never played FFXIV but thinks machinist looks awesome and wants to play.

That guy's going to feel seriously cheated when he gets everything going and finds out exactly what's required to access the job he was interested in playing. And he's going to be right.

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Wasn't talking about you, but thanks for being presumptuous & assuming I was.

"...and he's going to be right," as if this' an argument of 'right' & 'wrong' LOL.

Sorry, you're losing credibility fast.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

...telling a potential new customer not to bother purchasing the expansion until they finish they 2.55 storyline... which they might not even care about...

...the new customer might not even know of the 2.55 completion requirement, so they'll have wasted their money on something they can't even play.

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1) So... if the consumer is interested in the game... they can buy FFXIV:ARR & if they enjoy it, then buy Heavensward...

2) That's what disclaimers are for which I'm sure a line like "not initially available upon purchase" will be advertised on the box & in promotions...

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

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1: You have to be iLevel 90 to finish the storyline. This requires new players to grind for tomes or gear from dungeons.

2. Inaccessible new zones and new Jobs is not a selling point. That is telling a potential new customer not to bother purchasing the expansion until they finish they 2.55 storyline... which they might not even care about because the Job they want to play will not be available for them until they are item level 90.

3. A continuation of 2. The new customer might not even know of the 2.55 completion requirement, so they'll have wasted their money on something they can't even play.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

That guy's going to feel seriously cheated when he gets everything going and finds out exactly what's required to access the job he was interested in playing. And he's going to be right.

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Then that person isn't looking at the total picture then. It's not like people are forced to make a whole new character to play another job. Everything is available on one character, which means that nothing done is useless even if it's on a class that you may not want to main.

If it were me and I realized I couldn't play the class that actually caught my attention I'd look at it as incentive to get through whatever it is that I had to do as quickly as I could to get access to it. Plus, every job has cross-class skills...only makes sense to save yourself some time and level whatever gives you said skills if you're not able to access your desired class right away.

Also, where is all this "gated behind story" crap coming from? I haven't seen one thing mentioned that any of the new jobs are going to be locked away in Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

1: You have to be iLevel 90 to finish the storyline. This requires new players to grind for tomes or gear from dungeons.

which they might not even care about because the Job they want to play will not be available for them until they are item level 90.

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Because getting to i90 is so very difficult, right?

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Originally Posted by Callinon

They've said all the job quests for the new jobs will be in Ishgard.

To enter Ishgard requires completion of the 2.55 story.

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One way around this would be if they make a total change to how we get jobs, and not have acquisition of the new jobs count as 'job quests' -- making job quests only needed to get certain skills. Maybe they could make job acquisition quests be outside Ishgard or something - but I highly doubt they'll lock the 3 new jobs behind anything other than being lvl 30 // just like they didn't lock NIN out for those who didn't do the main story with Yugiri and all, either.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

They've said all the job quests for the new jobs will be in Ishgard.

To enter Ishgard requires completion of the 2.55 story.

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Then good. That's the way it should be. It's the way it worked in FFXI and that is the only other game that has the multi class single chr system. You wanted the Aht Urgan jobs, they were in the Aht Urgan areas and you needed to unlock them to make it there. As i said before, what is so wrong about giving new players something to work towards? common sense would say, these are features coming in an expansion, i should at least look at how to get them before assuming it will be the same as the arr content. Realistically, you should also be demanding the ROG be a starting job not something unlocked at 15. which, you probably are. start there first and win that battle. Regardless, this ship has sailed and its how its going to work, no need to complain over spilt milk. Personally i'm more concerned about the housing situation regarding new players. as it stands they will be locked out of a whole slew of existing content let alone all the new content coming in 3.0

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Originally Posted by Nestama

1: You have to be iLevel 90 to finish the storyline. This requires new players to grind for tomes or gear from dungeons.

2. Inaccessible new zones and new Jobs is not a selling point. That is telling a potential new customer not to bother purchasing the expansion until they finish they 2.55 storyline... which they might not even care about because the Job they want to play will not be available for them until they are item level 90.

3. A continuation of 2. The new customer might not even know of the 2.55 completion requirement, so they'll have wasted their money on something they can't even play.

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Maybe they should be a informed consumer and know what they are buying.

Yea i do hope they consider not putting pre-level 50 job quests in Ishgard. Do they think that reviewers will not pick up on this? Level to 50 finish entire 2.0 story, just to be knocked down to level 30 and start again if you want to play the new job? I'd really like this game to score high when people review it, as Final Fantasy has already lost so much credibility lately.

The 30 day trial that people will get when they buy the Heavensward combo pack is going to be what convinces people whether or not they want to subscribe to the game. Most players won't reach Ishgard in 30 days. So the 3 jobs with the coolest weapons wont be available to people during that 30 day trial if u have to unlock them in Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

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While I understand your opinion and respect it of course, I disagree with everything you have posted. I don't understand why you think its an odd decision. You have been through the content a new person has not. While they do have to play catch up this is nothing new to the MMO scene. Even with it being gated it will be a breeze for new people. You may ask why? Chances are they were invited by a friend. Think about that for a minute. What do we "all" do when we have friends join us on a game. We power level them or assist them with twink gear, and run them through stuff at a neck breaking pace. For then it turns into a blur, and the next thing you know they are stepping into Ishgard. My point is the new jobs being gated is a non-issue from SE's stand point. Maybe not yours, but then again its not your business model its theirs.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Here's the thing. It's not JUST FFXI's expansions that didn't make you do this to play new jobs... no MMO does that.

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Read previous posts, WoW did this... you had to hit 55 to get Death Knight. And complete a quest IIRC.

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Originally Posted by Donarudo

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Yes, and if I didn't have a job I would be completely miserable. This game is one of the most un-newby friendly games I have ever played and I have experiences with many MMOs, although FFXIV is different - its still a gaming company that wants to make money. I doubt the average player would be willing to suffer through what I did just to play with they're friends. I played every day for 14 hours grinding and doing the base story-line quest. Its NOT fast. I almost have half the hours played of my friend I met who has been playing since a year ago.

If It wasn't for my Tenacity, I would of never beat 2.0 as fast as I did. Heck - I'm not even caught up on my main story yet.

Honestly, make a new character and get him to 50 and caught up and tell me how "fast, and easy" it is, even with help.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Maybe they should be a informed consumer and know what they are buying.

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And where exactly will a new customer look. As far as I know, only the Live Letters on this forum inform you that 2.55 is a requirement. If the new Jobs are indeed going to be locked behind a level 50 i90 wall, then SE are required to put "Heavensward content is inaccessible until you finish Before the Fall Part 2. This requires you to be level 50 and item level 90." on all physical box copies and on their website. They'll even have to advertise that requirement as well.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Then good. That's the way it should be. It's the way it worked in FFXI and that is the only other game that has the multi class single chr system.

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No, it's not.

To become a blue mage, for instance, I had to travel to Aht Urghan. This is true. But getting access to Aht Urghan did NOT require me to complete Chains of Promathia. It required me to do one (entirely trivial) quest to gain access.
To become a ninja required access to Sea Serpent Grotto, and so access to Khazam. Getting this access did NOT require me to complete the vanilla FFXI main story. I had to get some chest keys. That's all.

Even FFXI, Lord of the Grind, didn't gate off its new jobs this way.

As for other multiclass games, I'd point to Rift. Rift doesn't require completing entire expansions worth of content before giving you access to the next expansion's souls (that game's version of a class).

Gating off the story is perfectly reasonable. That makes all the sense in the entire world. Gating off the jobs is a colossal mistake.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Stuff about stuff I am confused.

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I am sorry but this does not make any sense at all "to me". I have a level 50 character and I have 2.55 done, which means when I unlock the new jobs they will be level 30. The only thing missing is leveling the class to 30. I consider that a bonus. So a new character will level to 50, and get MSQ done and then say awesome I can start another CLASS/JOB or I can just go start this new JOB that is already level 30. Again I consider that a bonus not a downside. So in my "opinion" that would be a better review then having to start at lvl 1 with the new jobs. Again I want to reiterate that this is an opinion only and in no way shape or form even remotely resembles any thing else other then an opinion. I just want to be clear that this is an opinion. For the record your post really did confuse me.