Our passive characters and why the 2.55 story fails (BIG SPOILERS) (rant warning)

There is a significant difference between killing monsters, Garleans, Primals, Beastmen and corrupt people out in the wild and killing groups of guards in town who to the general populace are just doing their jobs.

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Originally Posted by ElieDavion

im preety sure thers an achievement on how many enemys you struck down. i honestly fail to see how those few brass blades/ crystal braves make you look different if you would have killed them (in comparison to the hundred thousand beastmen, traitors, garleans and whatever else you allready killed)

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I doubt some of the achievements are in any way directly linked to the story. So they're non-canon. As for killing people, there are a few problems I can see and some have already stated. Killing a few Brass Blades would pose bad since the Syndicate can use that as ammunition against you. Killing a few Crystal Braves would pose even better ammunition for them to use against you. Not a lot of people know about the Crystal Braves turning against the Scions as it all happened in private, so they'll just assume you turned traitor and kill some of your own. Welp.

Edit: I think we can dismiss the use of side-quests as an argument. Most of those happen outside the MSQ. Hell, you can go through the whole 2.0 to 2.55 MSQ without having to touch coil.

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Originally Posted by Sushikins

There is a significant difference between killing monsters, Garleans, Primals, Beastmen and corrupt people out in the wild and killing groups of guards in town who to the general populace are just doing their jobs.

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What's the difference between killing corrupt people in the wild and killing corrupt people in the city? Both of those groups of people could've "just been doing their jobs" to the general populace. It couldn't be any more obvious that they are corrupt when they're trying to frame the savior of Eorzea with poisoning the Sultana, of all things. What reason could we possibly have to do that? How do they think the Warrior of Light benefits in ANY way from killing the Sultana? Besides - what the general populace hears about this whole incident is in the hands of the Syndicate anyway. They can tell the common people whatever they wish to tell them, even if we didn't resist, they can claim we did and killed half a dozen innocent guards. I mean - duh, what were the scions doing? Papalymo and Yda killed their fair share, and so did Y'Shtola and Thancred. Why is it okay for them to kill corrupt guards but not for us?

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Killing a few Crystal Braves would pose even better ammunition for them to use against you. Not a lot of people know about the Crystal Braves turning against the Scions as it all happened in private, so they'll just assume you turned traitor and kill some of your own.

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Alphinaud, the very LEADER of the Crystal Braves can confirm it just fine, however.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I doubt some of the achievements are in any way directly linked to the story. So they're non-canon. As for killing people, there are a few problems I can see and some have already stated. Killing a few Brass Blades would pose bad since the Syndicate can use that as ammunition against you. Killing a few Crystal Braves would pose even better ammunition for them to use against you. Not a lot of people know about the Crystal Braves turning against the Scions as it all happened in private, so they'll just assume you turned traitor and kill some of your own. Welp.

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what i meant is that murder depends on the point of view and a hero in such a worlds is just a glorified murderer in a sense.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Alphinaud, the very LEADER of the Crystal Braves can confirm it just fine, however.

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Wasn't he gaoled?

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Wasn't he gaoled?

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Uh, no. He wasn't. You mean Raubahn, the leader of the Immortal Flames.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Uh, no. He wasn't. You mean Raubahn, the leader of the Immortal Flames.

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I remember Pipin specifically mentioning about breaking him out because he believed that they were innocent.

What is it with all the murder comments!? This is when I start to question a person's mentality. Even if you're talking about something not real, doesn't change the fact the mentality in one's mind is in question. Comments like this are not protected and are taken into account of your true nature. The fact that some are very adamant about what they feel is a sign as to why politics start to intervene with video games.

I really would like to hear from the devs in the nature of the player's relationship with their own character(as in, are they an extension of our responses, or a stand-in for Derplander, predetermined and set). the reason for this is that multiple quests and cutscenes give mixed signals on this. From Gaius's elevator conversation, the carriage guys in the intro, to various conversations in sidequests, my initial reaction was "Which response best suits Kallera's, what would she say?" The story required involvement, and kept interest and investment in the characters that we log in with everyday. The voices within that we have for our characters, our emotions, that aren't all uniform. I do not believe we all view ourselves as Derplander.

2.55's final scenes, they way they were handled, ended up taking many players out of the story, this is generally a mistake in storytelling. By including agency with the arrest and involvement with the escape, I think the cutscenes would've been taken a lot better.

Examples: Not everyone understands being suddenly whisked from the Sultana's meeting room to the banquet bound, but a lot more would understand getting an option of going quietly, or getting in a quick scuffle where you are overcome by the guards, then taken to the banquet bound. Whose to say going quietly wouldn't result in a punch to the face anyway?

The decisions of the Scions buying the rest time, Minfillia certainly, could've warranted multiple choice reactions ("You ARE the Scions!" "...Don't you die on me!" "Why are you doing this?") To give a sense of it being the last time you might be able to say something to them.

Our killing primals isn't unique and only something we can do. The primals have been defeated before without us and our blessing. What makes us unique is that we are immune to being tempered, not that we can kill primals. The company of heroes who we had to do all those quests for back when we were still an unknown had put Titan down. It's even stated in the Ifrit cutscenes that the Flames and Blades could put down Ifrit, just that more lives would be lost as they have to kill anyone that gets tempered.

Also our level isn't an argument, levels are a game mechanic that is only something that is there as a baseline to set content difficulty. Even using that argument just a quick glance through the regions near a nation show guards come in more than a single level range, so who is to say the ones inside the palace wouldn't be of a level that would make them at least mobs in an equal level dungeon to us. The imperial unit inside the Keeper of the Lake are from the same base we ride through, and yet they are certainly stronger than those who are at best an annoyance when they hit us and slow down our ride.

Well... about our character's personalities... its like with military rations...
Since they can't make a food that will appeal to the taste of everyone, they had to go for a ration that no one would like.

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Originally Posted by Nagrom

Our killing primals isn't unique and only something we can do. The primals have been defeated before without us and our blessing. What makes us unique is that we are immune to being tempered, not that we can kill primals. The company of heroes who we had to do all those quests for back when we were still an unknown had put Titan down. It's even stated in the Ifrit cutscenes that the Flames and Blades could put down Ifrit, just that more lives would be lost as they have to kill anyone that gets tempered.

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To add to that, Tristan from the Summoner quests is heavily implied to have beaten Ifrit before (because in order to tame and summon an Egi, one must defeat its Primal beforehand); it's just that he lost his brother to tempering in the process...

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I really would like to hear from the devs in the nature of the player's relationship with their own character(as in, are they an extension of our responses, or a stand-in for Derplander, predetermined and set). the reason for this is that multiple quests and cutscene give mixed signals on this. From Gaius's elevator conversation, the carriage guys in the intro, to various conversations in sidequests, my initial reaction was "Which response best suits Kallera's, what would she say?" The story required involvement, and kept interest and investment in the characters that we log in with everyday. The voices within that we have for our characters, our emotions, that aren't all uniform. I do not believe we all view ourselves as Derplander.

2.55's final scenes, they way they were handled, ended up taking many players out of the story, this is generally a mistake in storytelling. By including agency with the arrest and involvement with the escape, I think the cutscenes would've been taken a lot better.

Examples: Not everyone understands being suddenly whisked from the Sultana's meeting room to the banquet bound, but a lot more would understand getting an option of going quietly, or getting in a quick scuffle where you are overcome by the guards, then taken to the banquet bound. Whose to say going quietly wouldn't result in a punch to the face anyway?

The decisions of the Scions buying the rest time, Minfillia certainly, could've warranted multiple choice reactions ("You ARE the Scions!" "...Don't you die on me!" "Why are you doing this?") To give a sense of it being the last time you might be able to say something to them.

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I'm all for more dialogue choices for flavor effects, and we have had them occasionally in the beginning parts of our game, so there's precedent to occurring.

But asking for a Dev response on the relationship between your character and the plot-line is not required. You need only look at the history of Final Fantasy to understand it. Before the moniker of "It's an MMO, not an RPG!" is stated in protest, I will remind the forum base that this is not Final Fantasy's first foray into MMOs. FFXI handles the players part in the story near identically.

Again, I'm neutral as to the way it's done, mainly because to me, it's the way it's always been done. I have other games that give me personal agency and full control over my characters. Final Fantasy has always been less of a chose your own adventure style RPG, and more of a novel story built into a game format. So much so that these days I take it for granted. It's rather odd to me that this garners such a reaction from players, but I have to remind myself that many players here have never played other FF games before, or simply were pushed away from FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Uh, no. He wasn't. You mean Raubahn, the leader of the Immortal Flames.

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In reply again because I looked up the cutscene. Yes, Alphinaud was captured and gaoled. Pipin implies as such during the escape from Ul'dah while on the carriage when he stated, "Needless to say, I did not think his imprisonment justified."

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

If she were a real person, I would feel bad.

But she's not. She's a video game character. I'm allowed to laugh because I can make the distinction between Reality and Fiction. Can you? Perhaps you need some help if you're starting to mix your Fiction in so much that you can't tell the different. Y'might give some good cannon fodder to those that say GTA make people violent. ;)

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you must not like reading some books, while I think this games general story sucks, this was one big huge wow factor for me. if the author really hits people in their feels and gets people like me all into the story, they're doing a good job lol! I'm excited to see what's next! (on.mobile typos inc)

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

In reply again because I looked up the cutscene. Yes, Alphinaud was captured and gaoled. Pipin implies as such during the escape from Ul'dah while on the carriage when he stated, "Needless to say, I did not think his imprisonment justified."

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And what is your point? Just because he was gaoled and broken out immediately doesn't mean he isn't still the official leader of the Crystal Braves and perfectly capable of confirming that THEY are the traitors, and not the WoL if they had cut some of them down.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

you must not like reading some books, while I think this games general story sucks, this was one big huge wow factor for me. if the author really hits people in their feels and gets people like me all into the story, they're doing a good job lol! I'm excited to see what's next! (on.mobile typos inc)

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Certain points of the story got me in the feels, and then right at the end... He made Tataru cry! :'(

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

you must not like reading some books, while I think this games general story sucks, this was one big huge wow factor for me.

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To be fair; I do like books. I just wasn't invested in this. And even when I read books, I still don't mind laughing when a character I like dies. XD It's why I can watch things like Tali'zora's death from Mass Effect 3 and not be affected by it - she was my favorite character adn only romance option, but I still didn't mind watching the "Bad" ending of the Quarians with her death at all.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to be able to emotionally invest into a character. But the moment you start thinking that laughing at a death in a video game is a sign of some sort of mental deficit, I'll in turn call another person out on much the same for being TOO emotionally attatched. It easily goes both ways in that regards. :P

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Defeating him does show that the WoL is still pretty strong without the power of light, I'll give you that. However, that was it. We defeated the Ascian. That is all. We did not kill him. We tried to using Moenbryda's plan, but there was not enough Aether to kill the Ascian. Moenbryda sacrificed herself to boost the power of that 'Sword of Light' and in the process, we were able to kill the Ascian. Without Moenbryda's research, we wouldn't have been able to kill that Ascian.

Thus, we can conclude that the WoL can be compared to Minfilia in terms of powers, but in terms of strength - we're probably just stronger than a lot of people.

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Pretty sure that Ascians being hard to kill is more based on their biology than our power. Remember that Ascians are basically ghosts that possess humans and cannot be killed be conventional means. Just because we couldn't kill him normally doesn't make us weak.

Think of it this way: if Superman or Goku fought against the Norse god Balder their attacks wouldn't do anything to him because Balder can only be harmed by Mistletoe. Does that make them weak?

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Originally Posted by FrejyaAthenes

Pretty sure that Ascians being hard to kill is more based on their biology than our power. Remember that Ascians are basically ghosts that possess humans and cannot be killed be conventional means.

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That's correct. The main reason Ascians are so 'dangerous' in the MS is because they're dark spirits possessing host bodies; killing their host just causes the host to die while the Ascian's spirit disperses for a while, regenerates, and then possesses a new body. They're pseudo-Primals (or based on what we've seen with recent Primals, possibly even just plain Primals) in that sense. The point of the light-laser was simply to kill Nariables rather than only temporarily banish him.

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Originally Posted by Sushikins

There is a significant difference between killing monsters, Garleans, Primals, Beastmen and corrupt people out in the wild and killing groups of guards in town who to the general populace are just doing their jobs.

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Yes. That difference is that Beastmen typically fight to defend their own lands, Garleans are simply people with a different point of view on things. Primals are those that answered a desperate call for help (someone would define that an aspect of a hero).

These are different from the Brass Blades and Crystal Braves. Because the others really just fight to defend their way of living, yet we kill them all mercilessly and think nothing of it.


But when we are to kill Corrupt Brass Blades and corrupt Crystal Braves (for all purposes criminals without remorse), it suddenly puts a bad light on us?
In case you havent noticed, all of them are not doing their job.

You have peculiar values.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

I'm honestly still baffled as to why it is so difficult for the many people in this thread to understand the ramifications of their actions had they fought back or taken out some of the Monetarists themselves. Anyone could figure out that this was a losing battle from the start

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So because its a losing battle you decide to make the worst choice because it doesnt matter anyway? Ramifications? BS. As others have explained had Lolirito had the WoL and the rest of the scions confined you would have only given him better means to control the situation.


However it was not a losing battle. You simply took the actions that made it one.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Without Moenbryda's research, we wouldn't have been able to kill that Ascian.

Thus, we can conclude that the WoL can be compared to Minfilia in terms of powers, but in terms of strength - we're probably just stronger than a lot of people.

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I think you might have missed the part where he died and became incorporeal. This happens right after the WoL losses Blessing of Light, ironically.
Which means the WoL had considerable combat prowess even without it.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

*sighs* you really believe our character alone can face a whole army? seriously?

even in the dragon and primal fight we was never alone! the scion by themself are not as strong as us. indeed they have some flashy movement... but nothing much. other point, our goal is the peace and protection of eorzea.... going around killing eorzean in uldah... is maybe not the best move. without forget, we don't know if all the soldier are part of the plot, some npc talk seems to say the inverse. since they wasn't able to arrest us, they are in a tight spot.... they can't openly arrest us and say: "they have killed Nanamo a few day ago".

seriously the situation as it stand have become a total mess even for the traitor. i'm sure if they had them way we will have been executed swiftly after everybody was arrested. but now that we did flee and alive, they can't really act without create a situation extreme.

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**sigh** (<- that is me making an overly exaggerated sound as well)
Do you even know a thing or two about armies and combat, seriously?
You are aware you are on top of a promenade inside of a large city right? You can't just walk an army into a city and have it fight effectively.
It would turn into a pitched battle. Thats because there isnt a lot of space to move an army, let alone have it fight.


In pitched battles the side with the most endurance and the best individual units tends to win.
And hey, would you know that their 'units' happend to be level 35 brass blades and your 'units', highly elite combaters.
As far as endurance goes well, they had a means to escape. Which they used. So endurance would not be an issue.

Actually lorewise you were alone when fighting the primals. (most of them, you had help with leviathan) There were others fighting elsewhere to give you a hand, but you still faced the primals themselves alone.

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going around killing eorzean in uldah

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According to my achievements I've already killed a few thousand. I don't think a dozen or two-three of corrupt guards serving the one that killed the peoples beloved leader, would really have much of a negative impact.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

seriously the situation as it stand have become a total mess even for the traitor. i'm sure if they had them way we will have been executed swiftly after everybody was arrested. but now that we did flee and alive, they can't really act without create a situation extreme.

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They just killed the original leader of Ul'dah, seized full control over the city and killed or imprisoned nearly all of the scions.
You dont consider that an extreme situation?

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Originally Posted by Riepah

And what is your point? Just because he was gaoled and broken out immediately doesn't mean he isn't still the official leader of the Crystal Braves and perfectly capable of confirming that THEY are the traitors, and not the WoL if they had cut some of them down.

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Refer to:

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Not a lot of people know about the Crystal Braves turning against the Scions as it all happened in private, so they'll just assume you turned traitor and kill some of your own. Welp.

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Then refer to:

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

"Needless to say, I did not think his imprisonment justified."

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Not saying that events would be completely different - just that the credibility of Alphinaud drops just because you decided to murder a few people. If you took a look around and talked to some of the NPCs scattered around the world after finishing the 2.55 questline, you'll find out that some of them genuinely do not think of you as guilty and that some of them are just doing their job. What do you suppose would happen if say, during your killing spree that you end up murdering innocent Brass Blades/Crystal Braves that didn't know better? :p

I'm not against having choices in the cutscenes, but for this particular event, I really do not see how murdering people would help you in the least in that situation. You're making yourself look bad by murdering people. At the same time, because you are pretty close to Alphinaud, his credibility would possibly drop because of your decision to resist. Same with the Scions.

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Originally Posted by FrejyaAthenes

Pretty sure that Ascians being hard to kill is more based on their biology than our power. Remember that Ascians are basically ghosts that possess humans and cannot be killed be conventional means. Just because we couldn't kill him normally doesn't make us weak.

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But my question is, does the strength of an Ascian depend on the body they possess? Or does possessing a mortal body grant it supernatural powers? I'm kinda curious. Was it ever explained? :confused:

You're viewing it too generalized. We're protecting Eorzea, yes they're all doing their jobs, but they're also trying to harm the people we're trying to protect. Beastmen? With a few exceptions they kill people on sight, even if it is to defend their land, to the people of Eorzea they're a menace, even when the Beastmen have a legitimate reason to fight. Garleans are trying to take our land and subjugate our people. Primals temper people and turn them into mindless slaves, and even when not, their very existence puts Eorzea in danger, so even when they're not evil or against us we have to put them down. The turncoat soldiers may be no better, but unlike the above examples, to the people we're protecting they're protecting Eorzea as well, not threatening their lives.



The people betraying us have already shown the ability to cover up events, if you go slaying the brass blades and crystal braves attempting to apprehend/kill you, it just gives them more ammo to use against you. As of now people have heard that you were apparently behind an attempt on the Sultana's life, which isn't a whole lot to go on to turn against you. But if they came out and proved that you also killed many soldiers during your escape, soldiers simply trying to protect the Sultana and the City, soldiers who may have families, then suddenly you're not looking anywhere near as good. The people we're fighting against are great at manipulation, especially the common populace, but because they have to hide the Sultana's death and the great amount of respect people have for you, they've had little luck in turning the populace against you, and it would even work against them at this point if they did try and arrest you in broad daylight.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

But my question is, does the strength of an Ascian depend on the body they possess? Or does possessing a mortal body grant it supernatural powers? I'm kinda curious. Was it ever explained? :confused:

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My answer is: Not sure. I think a body just allows it to affect the material plane and the power's all them, otherwise Lahabrea would've found some depressed mage to possess rather than Thancred who has no magical ability.

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Originally Posted by FrejyaAthenes

My answer is: Not sure. I think a body just allows it to affect the material plane and the power's all them, otherwise Lahabrea would've found some depressed mage to possess rather than Thancred who has no magical ability.

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What about the endurance? I mean, say an Ascian chooses the body of a fragile scholar. Would the body be technically 'easier' to kill? I do hope they can explain all this Ascian stuff in Heavensward. I can't wait! The hype is real! Ahhhh! D:

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Originally Posted by Sushikins

You're viewing it too generalized. We're protecting Eorzea, yes they're all doing their jobs, but they're also trying to harm the people we're trying to protect. Beastmen? With a few exceptions they kill people on sight, even if it is to defend their land

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The did not used to. In fact even in the MSQ Scions will often refer to the fact that it wasnt the beastmen that attacked first.

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Primals temper people and turn them into mindless slaves, and even when not, their very existence puts Eorzea in danger, so even when they're not evil or against us we have to put them down.

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In the same breath that you call the Garleans oppressors, seriously?
Because this is exactly the Garlean way of thinking.
You are aware that Hydaelyn also qualifies as a primal right? Yeah, the WoL (your character) is serving one. Do you know why the WoL is immune to tempering?
''You already serve another god'' taking from the games dialogue.

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Originally Posted by Sushikins

The turncoat soldiers may be no better, but unlike the above examples, to the people we're protecting they're protecting Eorzea as well, not threatening their lives.

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As I explained they are not the same, they are worse.

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Originally Posted by Sushikins

As of now people have heard that you were apparently behind an attempt on the Sultana's life, which isn't a whole lot to go on to turn against you.

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You presume a lot that isnt stated in the game. Even the Sultanasworn dont seem to know Nanamo died. In fact, noone actually does at the point that its relevant.
The WoL could have fought back and captured/killed the people that saw Nanamo dead. Which was only a syndicate member, some brass blades, and the lady in waiting. With the WoL's influence it would have been easy to convince others that they killed Nanamo.
In fact, the only thing they even had when you were inside of that room was their word against the WoL's. And the WoL's word carries far more weight.

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Originally Posted by Sushikins

But if they came out and proved that you also killed many soldiers during your escape, soldiers simply trying to protect the Sultana and the City, soldiers who may have families, then suddenly you're not looking anywhere near as good.

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Dont make them into good guys now. These are guys that willingly betrayed the saviors of the realm. There is not a single none corrupt Crystal Brave that would fight the WoL.


Just trying to protect people? Have you already forgotten the Crystal Braves that got brutally murdered to silence them?
I have no absolutely no idea where you get the ''good people trying to do their job'' from. The game and dialogue itself make explicit mention of Seizing power via Corrupt Brass Blades and Corrupt Crystal Braves.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Do you know why the WoL is immune to tempering?
''You already serve another god'' taking from the games dialogue.

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Actually, it was the Echo that made us immune to tempering. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

The WoL could have fought back and captured/killed the people that saw Nanamo dead. Which was only a syndicate member, some brass blades, and the lady in waiting. With the WoL's influence it would have been easy to convince others that they killed Nanamo.

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No amount of influence will save you from being gaoled by the other members of the Syndicate. You decided to murder one of their members. To add on that, you are on their land. The Syndicate has power over Ul'dah the moment Nanamo drank that poison.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

These are guys that willingly betrayed the saviors of the realm. There is not a single none corrupt Crystal Brave that would fight the WoL.

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Except, we don't even know what would happen if you decide to murder the guards that came to apprehend you. Resisting would be an admittance of guilt. Murdering would just reinforce that guilt and make you suspicious as hell. Remember also that only the WoL and only one other member of the Crystal Braves were privy to the information about the corrupt Crystal Braves. Not even Alphinaud knew about it at the time. Any innocent Crystal Braves would just act on orders given that you turned traitor from their perspective. :eek:

I knew my character was a soulless puppet when it was established that

...the lord of the dragons was following us around and LISTENING to everything we're privy to, but our character doesn't take a moment to actually tell anyone that the very enemy we're trying to outwit is listening to this very conversation.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Except, we don't even know what would happen if you decide to murder the guards that came to apprehend you. Resisting would be an admittance of guilt. Murdering would just reinforce that guilt and make you suspicious as hell. Remember also that only the WoL and only one other member of the Crystal Braves were privy to the information about the corrupt Crystal Braves. Not even Alphinaud knew about it at the time. Any innocent Crystal Braves would just act on orders given that you turned traitor from their perspective.

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We know what would have happened: you wouldn't have been captured like a scrub. I see several people trying to argue this point, but did you miss how they're trying to frame you? The Syndicate has a lot of sway and they're clearly not above planting evidence and lying so you're "guilty" whether you resist arrest or not. Since you're guilty anyway you may as well evade arrest until you can clear your name. Also, considering the length of time the entire coupe had been planned and the way it even played out, it heavily implies that all of the Blades and Braves present were on the take anyway so it's unlikely you'd be cutting down someone innocently doing their job.

There are alternatives to killing the oposition. Incapacitate/restrain/evade. IF the whole thing was setup meticulous over a long period of time, then I dare say the syndicate would be doing what the Crystal Braves were. Weeding out and disposing of any weak links. I would find it hard to believe that any WoL sympathizing Brass Blades would of been on duty at any point during the festivities. The syndicate just wouldn't of wanted that risk.

They could of played it so Middy talked to us at the crime scene for the sake of narration, stating the obvious that it's a setup, and mocks the prospect of a fair trial, and the prospect of the fabled WoLs tale ending in such a fashion. We evade capture for a time, jump into the conveniently unguarded lift, only to have t̶h̶e̶ ̶T̶u̶r̶k̶s̶ Crystal Braves/Brass Blades bundle in on us at the next floor. We're thrown on the floor at the party, and the story continues. But that's just woulda/shoulda/coulda at this point.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

Anyone could figure out that this was a losing battle from the start, the reach of the syndicate extends beyond the two people in that room and if the other GC leaders has been present to see you battle your way out of the palace as the guards were chasing you for assassinating the Sultana, well it's not a good look.

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Except we did exactly that with the Scions... if anything, anyone could have figured out that we would be never getting a fair trial, so complying to the arrest wouldn't have made any sense, since we would have never gotten out of jail, and could possibly be executed. Fleeing Ul'dah and hiding was the only sensible thing to do - and that's what we ended up doing.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Except we did exactly that with the Scions... if anything, anyone could have figured out that we would be never getting a fair trial, so complying to the arrest wouldn't have made any sense, since we would have never gotten out of jail, and could possibly be executed. Fleeing Ul'dah and hiding was the only sensible thing to do - and that's what we ended up doing.

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Um...that is exactly what I was trying to get across. Fighting would have given them just the ammo they needed to discredit me, also as a member of the Immortal Flames and proud member of the city of Uldah I didn't want to fight soldiers that didn't know better.

I wish they had let these other people choose to fight, so they could lose and get captured. Then they could log in every day and look at their prison cell. But at least they could say they played the scene out the way THEY chose. Then they could wait until 3.0 for the rescue mission by the people who escaped so they could play outside again.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I knew my character was a soulless puppet when it was established that

...the lord of the dragons was following us around and LISTENING to everything we're privy to, but our character doesn't take a moment to actually tell anyone that the very enemy we're trying to outwit is listening to this very conversation.

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Considering the newly formed contract...whose to say that we're even able to admit he's listening in?

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Actually, it was the Echothat made us immune to tempering. :eek:

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Ah, you dont get it yet what the echo is. ;)

My quote was directly taken from the game by the way, you can look it up if you want.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

No amount of influence will save you from being gaoled by the other members of the Syndicate. You decided to murder one of their members. To add on that, you are on their land. The Syndicate has power over Ul'dah the moment Nanamo drank that poison.

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So what does ''gaoled'' mean? Its not a word many people on the internet will know of, I think.

Anyway, the syndicate has that much power because you (those that felt it was a good idea to just surrender) gave it to them. All the actual power they have is those crystal brave and brass blades they hired.
Which does not include the sultanasworn, flames, and part of the brass blades. Nor does it include your Ishgardian, Gridianian, Lominsan, or Doman allies.
As it happens those factions (apart from the Doman) were present at the time.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Except, we don't even know what would happen if you decide to murder the guards that came to apprehend you. Resisting would be an admittance of guilt. Murdering would just reinforce that guilt and make you suspicious as hell. Remember also that only the WoL and only one other member of the Crystal Braves were privy to the information about the corrupt Crystal Braves. Not even Alphinaud knew about it at the time. Any innocent Crystal Braves would just act on orders given that you turned traitor from their perspective. :eek:

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My response to that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfKV5R4rovE


You seriously believe that any innocent Crystal Brave would act against the WoL?
All these people look up to the WoL as a symbol.

I don't think that individual is currently in the loop with the enemy, and is simply taunting you with each appearance.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I knew my character was a soulless puppet when it was established that

...the lord of the dragons was following us around and LISTENING to everything we're privy to, but our character doesn't take a moment to actually tell anyone that the very enemy we're trying to outwit is listening to this very conversation.

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You sure people to find out that you're literally allied with one of the most powerful Dragons?

Have you seen the shit Coerthans do to anyone they even suspect of allying with dragons?

There are some secrets better kept secret, 'cause being killed's far from the worst thing they'd do.

(Also I seem to remember us telling Minfilia that we'd spoken to Midgardsormr - not even made a contract, but simply spoken - and her basically saying "don't tell anyone about this"; but even if my memory's failing me, the less people that know about this the far, far better)


...All that aside, I was bothered by it, but given we were completely unarmed, I'm not surprised. The big thing, I think, is that it was actually sort of a smart decision. The more fuel was added to their fire, the more power the Sultansworn could have wielded. Even with the brashness in the scene, NPC commentary around the world after indicates that their grip on power is tenuous and people are unlikely to believe what they're spewing. The situation could have turned out very different otherwise, however.

It's similar in reason why Merlwyb and Kan-e retreated from the scene; in their case, had they of actually intervened heavily (which they could have) it could have literally sparked a war, either between nations or simply between Ul'dahs classes (as opposed to the simply highly tense situation that exists now).

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Originally Posted by Krr

That's correct. The main reason Ascians are so 'dangerous' in the MS is because they're dark spirits possessing host bodies; killing their host just causes the host to die while the Ascian's spirit disperses for a while, regenerates, and then possesses a new body. They're pseudo-Primals (or based on what we've seen with recent Primals, possibly even just plain Primals) in that sense. The point of the light-laser was simply to kill Nariables rather than only temporarily banish him.

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Not 100% correct
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...ViayJRs#t=4117

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

So what does ''gaoled'' mean? Its not a word many people on the internet will know of, I think.

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http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Mordion_Gaol

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

We know what would have happened: you wouldn't have been captured like a scrub. I see several people trying to argue this point, but did you miss how they're trying to frame you? The Syndicate has a lot of sway and they're clearly not above planting evidence and lying so you're "guilty" whether you resist arrest or not. Since you're guilty anyway you may as well evade arrest until you can clear your name. Also, considering the length of time the entire coupe had been planned and the way it even played out, it heavily implies that all of the Blades and Braves present were on the take anyway so it's unlikely you'd be cutting down someone innocently doing their job.

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The Warrior of Light is overly naive and trust almost everyone who says "I sware, dude, I'm your friend!". Even if Teledji is known to be a bad character, only seeking profit and power for himself, he's still one of the most powerful leader of Ul'dah.
With his great sense of justice, there is no way the Warrior of Light would have attacked Teledji or his guards without any kind of evidence beside "he's not a nice lalafell".

Our character is more often that not completly clueless. It's not a sign of stupidity, but more something amongst the lines of him/her not being able to fully understand what all of these bad behavior works, because s/he's pure of heart.

It's not the first time that we, as the viewer, are able to understand a situation to the point of calling it obvious. But from the point of view of the Warrior of Light, when Teledji came to arrest us, s/he may have absolutly no idea what was going on, and blindly followed the guards to be put under arrest. Even if he's not up to good, Teledji still represent the authority of Ul'dah. Standing against him means standing against Ul'dah altogether.
Besides, the Warrior of Light is good, lawful, fair and loyal. Attacking the leader of a city-state, even for his/her own safety, is very unlikely to ever happen. There is absolutly zero hint of selfishness within the Warrior of Light. Blasting and punching through a bunch of guards just to save his/her own ass is absolutly not something that seems natural for the Warrior of Light.

It's like most people here don't realize how clueless the Warrior of Light is regarding all that stuff, and assume that he's as farseeing as the player.
Yes, as the player, with the amount of knowledge we had (including everything the Warrior of Light didn't know), resisting might have been a better choice... but the Warrior of Light is not the player.

Something obvious for us isn't the same for the Warrior of Light, and some people here fail very hard to understand that.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

Um...that is exactly what I was trying to get across. Fighting would have given them just the ammo they needed to discredit me, also as a member of the Immortal Flames and proud member of the city of Uldah I didn't want to fight soldiers that didn't know better.

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They're actively trying to frame you so it doesn't matter whether you fight back or not. And due to the nature of their plan it's highly unlikely any innocent soldiers are even present.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The Warrior of Light is overly naive and trust almost everyone who says "I sware, dude, I'm your friend!". Even if Teledji is known to be a bad character, only seeking profit and power for himself, he's still one of the most powerful leader of Ul'dah.
With his great sense of justice, there is no way the Warrior of Light would have attacked Teledji or his guards without any kind of evidence beside "he's not a nice lalafell".

Our character is more often that not completly clueless. It's not a sign of stupidity, but more something amongst the lines of him/her not being able to fully understand what all of these bad behavior works, because s/he's pure of heart.

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And thus we come around full circle to part of why this thread was made in the first place. The WoL isn't privy to all of the information the player is, but given what they do know they still have zero reason to ever trust Teledji. Yes the WoL is naive to a fault, but even then we've been shown to be able to tell when something stinks when given sufficient reason for doubt. If the WoL doesn't think they have sufficient reason for distrusting the Syndicate they've been trying really hard to ignore the elephant in the room. It's actually so naive that it's out of character for them to be cooperative.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The Warrior of Light is overly naive and trust almost everyone who says "I sware, dude, I'm your friend!". Even if Teledji is known to be a bad character, only seeking profit and power for himself, he's still one of the most powerful leader of Ul'dah.
With his great sense of justice, there is no way the Warrior of Light would have attacked Teledji or his guards without any kind of evidence beside "he's not a nice lalafell".

Our character is more often that not completly clueless. It's not a sign of stupidity, but more something amongst the lines of him/her not being able to fully understand what all of these bad behavior works, because s/he's pure of heart.

It's not the first time that we, as the viewer, are able to understand a situation to the point of calling it obvious. But from the point of view of the Warrior of Light, when Teledji came to arrest us, s/he may have absolutly no idea what was going on, and blindly followed the guards to be put under arrest. Even if he's not up to good, Teledji still represent the authority of Ul'dah. Standing against him means standing against Ul'dah altogether.
Besides, the Warrior of Light is good, lawful, fair and loyal. Attacking the leader of a city-state, even for his/her own safety, is very unlikely to ever happen. There is absolutly zero hint of selfishness within the Warrior of Light. Blasting and punching through a bunch of guards just to save his/her own ass is absolutly not something that seems natural for the Warrior of Light.

It's like most people here don't realize how clueless the Warrior of Light is regarding all that stuff, and assume that he's as farseeing as the player.
Yes, as the player, with the amount of knowledge we had (including everything the Warrior of Light didn't know), resisting might have been a better choice... but the Warrior of Light is not the player.

Something obvious for us isn't the same for the Warrior of Light, and some people here fail very hard to understand that.

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I think the main issue is that, over the course of the story, we learn that the WoL isn't exactly us, but another character whose appearance/class we can alter while their personality is seperate from us. The problem being...we're not playing a very interesting character.