Fix Sumnmoner

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Originally Posted by HexWeaver

And no Ramuh or Shiva pets.. I'm honestly heartbroken. and no, skin glamours suck.

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With no elemental wheel it would be very difficult for a developer to balance all these Egi and keep their play styles unique (just like this multiple Trance idea) One or two will always out perform over the rest, and like it or not that's the fact of the matter. When you are developing for an MMO sized game things like that have to be sacrificed/compromised for something more economical in terms of development time. The Egi glamour system is that compromise, it's either we get one or two more unique Egi play styles, or a whole host of new Egi that fit into one of the 3 current Egi types...

The Egi galmour is not a bad thing at all, for example when we unlock the Leviathan, Ramuh and Shiva glamours they would most likely not only change the model of the Egi to that of the chosen glamour but also give them a whole new animation set and visual effects. The only thing that would stay the same is the programming of how that Egi works in game play. But it would actually look and feel like a brand new Egi.

grats to akiza

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

grats to akiza

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Indeed, credit where credit is due.

I'll admit I am hopeful that I will like the new changes. Honestly, I'm mostly disappointed that I can't summon Shiva, lol. Regardless, if she was a tank pet or not I would use her always, lol; I am not obsessed, I swear. But, I am optimistic? I mean seeing a video and experiencing it are two very different things. I mean not to jinx anything but who says Akh Morn couldn't be Tri-Disaster 2.0, I hope its not, but we have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

The Egi galmour is not a bad thing at all, for example when we unlock the Leviathan, Ramuh and Shiva glamours they would most likely not only change the model of the Egi to that of the chosen glamour but also give them a whole new animation set and visual effects. The only thing that would stay the same is the programming of how that Egi works in game play. But it would actually look and feel like a brand new Egi.

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If they look and feel like the original egis, that it itself seems a problem to me. And this is coming from someone who keeps their Egi alive through the last boss of Keeper of the Lake without Sustain (assuming at least some small amount of AoE heals to deal with the unavoidables). If the control system for and the responsiveness of the egis was improved, that it itself would close much of the gap between summons as pets and summons as attacks.

Also, the majority of the skill development cost, as far I've ever heard, is in the animations, not the programming of the skill itself. How would adding new animations for the same ability then be any more economical?

Not all summons have to be permanent pets, either.

In old school FFs with summons, you had those short(sometimes long) sequences where the summon disappears after it does its thing. Why can't we have that?
You can argue that it's just a fancier animation, but that can help a lot with facilitating a proper SMN fantasy.

Even this new Ahk Morn thing doesn't even properly fulfill the SMN fantasy because you're not actually summoning Bahamut into the physical world to perform the attack.

If I'm casting my DoTs, ruin, commanding my permanent pet to be bad ass and occasionally summoning a temporary pet that does awesome things, I'll be plenty satisfied with my SMN job.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Also, the majority of the skill development cost, as far I've ever heard, is in the animations, not the programming of the skill itself. How would adding new animations for the same ability then be any more economical?

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Actually when it comes to games development, programming is the most important and arduous task. That is why programmers are the most sought after discipline in the games development industry. But anyways as far as new Egi glamour animations go, they would actually be rather easy to produce. Animation states from other Egi could be recycled and the Key Frames tweaked in order to produce a whole new set of animations without starting from scratch. All that would be left to do is to create some new particle emissions which are also rather easy to produce and boom, one brand new Egi glamour that looks and feels exactly like a new Egi.

It really is that simple, hence why I think peoples dislike of this glamour system is unfounded.

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Originally Posted by AreeyaJaidee

Fixed it for you.

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I'm sorry I don't have a speech impediment, can you be doll and translate for me? I would appreciate it a lot

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...amutsummon.jpg

I'm sorry guys, but do you see that giant ass object above the Summoner...well that is a SUMMON! and not just any Summon, it is an Elder Primal Summon! Maybe this is the way SMN will summon all Elder Primal (Odin, Belias, ...) with regular Primals being summoned as Egi. We will always have the Egi so I fail to see why this isn't anything but awesome!

Essentially the SMN summons a large Bahamut Egi which is then absorbed by the SMN, putting them into Trance mode so they can unleash Bahamut's attack.

and then people find out Dreadwyrm Trance has a 5 minute recast timer and only 100 potency

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Originally Posted by Akeda

and then people find out Dreadwyrm Trance has a 5 minute recast timer and only 100 potency

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don't joke about that because enkindle already has an insanely long cool down for a lackluster damage and a situational ability.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...amutsummon.jpg

I'm sorry guys, but do you see that giant ass object above the Summoner...well that is a SUMMON! and not just any Summon, it is an Elder Primal Summon! Maybe this is the way SMN will summon all Elder Primal (Odin, Belias, ...) with regular Primals being summoned as Egi. We will always have the Egi so I fail to see why this isn't anything but awesome!

Essentially the SMN summons a large Bahamut Egi which is then absorbed by the SMN, putting them into Trance mode so they can unleash Bahamut's attack.

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Well I'm glad you're excited but all I see is a head when SMN enters trance. When I think about Bahamut Egi coming out I think Shu's Shadow from Blue Dragon:

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...wn-ability.jpg

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well I'm glad you're excited but all I see is a head when SMN enters trance. When I think about Bahamut Egi coming out I think Shu's Shadow from Blue Dragon:

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...wn-ability.jpg

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seems familiar

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im...r_concept1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Okay, smart guy. I listened to the Live Letter, and I was paying attention to the Japanese because I'm fluent in it, and I don't trust the lady they had interpreting (no offense to her, as she's obviously not familiar with the game like the developers). Link the video with a time stamp where he said it. I'll transcribe for you what he said if you really want it. Granted, I was watching at nearly 3:30 in the morning (JST), but I did not hear anything about new Egi abilities come from his lips.

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I didn't watch the live letter, but the Job Action video shows Selene having a new AoE buff. Logic dictates if one pet gets a new ability, all of them should.

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Originally Posted by tjw

I didn't watch the live letter, but the Job Action video shows Selene having a new AoE buff. Logic dictates if one pet gets a new ability, all of them should.

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but according to the people here Yoshi-P "promised" we'd get new egis, but we aren't so by their logic, why should we believe that they'd give fairies and egis new abilities. whats stopping them from giving just fairies new abilities. so logic doesn't exist here

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well I'm glad you're excited but all I see is a head when SMN enters trance. When I think about Bahamut Egi coming out I think Shu's Shadow from Blue Dragon:

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...wn-ability.jpg

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Haha this is true and even though I am excited, I do get why some people are disappointed. It's a shame people seem to be so disgruntled by this but I feel some people are going a little OT with their disdain of the Dreadwyrm Trance. I would love something that looked more like the Shadows from Blue Dragon. But the key difference is one is a single player RPG and the other is an MMO, and often in an MMO things have to be watered down in order to accommodate for mechanics and other players. It's easy when it is only you who is the player character and the rest are NPC's.

Basically I see the Dreadwyrm Trance as way of giving people those larger temporary Summons from classic FF's. When the Summon comes in does a pretty move then disappears. The mechanics are exactly the same. Granted it's not as dramatic or as drawn out as Bahamut Zero from FFVII, But for an MMO what do you realistically expect? It's the flashiest move in the game now, which leads onto another very flashy ability. Technically the Dreadwyrm Trance is no different to a traditional FF Summon.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Basically I see the Dreadwyrm Trance as way of giving people those larger temporary Summons from classic FF's. When the Summon comes in does a pretty move then disappears. The mechanics are exactly the same. Granted it's not as dramatic or as drawn out as Bahamut Zero from FFVII, But for an MMO what do you realistically expect? It's the flashiest move in the game now, which leads onto another very flashy ability. Technically the Dreadwyrm Trance is no different to a traditional FF Summon.

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I see 2 big diferences:
1- That green thing at the side of the char... is his ACTUAL Summon and its doing nothing
2- The Char is trowing the nuke... not the primal

At he end of the day will be just an instant fire III with a diferent effect.

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

I see 2 big diferences:
1- That green thing at the side of the char... is his ACTUAL Summon and its doing nothing
2- The Char is trowing the nuke... not the primal

At he end of the day will be just an instant fire III with a diferent effect.

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Actually I said the MECHANIC was the same and that TECHNICALLY it was like a traditional FF Summon. Also that little "green thing" you mentioned isn't a traditional FF Summon by any means. FFX is the only other FF to ever have a Summon that is permanently summoned. So actually the Dreadwyrm Trance is indeed more like a classic FF Summon than the Egi...just saying. You are focusing on superficial visuals and semantics, instead of actually thinking what works from a games development view point.

The Trance works as a traditional Summon because the SMN calls forth Bahamut (a portion of his Aether) that forms a large Egi above the SMN which is then absorbed by the SMN to unleash the attack. Whether the Bahamut above the SMN stayed out for the attack or not, or whether it was actually a fully formed Bahamut or not is inconsequential as the mechanic and end result is exactly the same.

The Trance/absorption of Bahamut is also very true to the SMN's lore for the simple reason that the Dark SMN Tristan had to absorb 3 SMN job crystals in order to be able to summon a fully formed Elder Primal Egi (Belias) This suggests one SMN alone does not have the power to summon an Elder Primal and keep control of it as a permanent Egi and therefore must absorb it to utilize it's power.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Haha this is true and even though I am excited, I do get why some people are disappointed. It's a shame people seem to be so disgruntled by this but I feel some people are going a little OT with their disdain of the Dreadwyrm Trance. I would love something that looked more like the Shadows from Blue Dragon. But the key difference is one is a single player RPG and the other is an MMO, and often in an MMO things have to be watered down in order to accommodate for mechanics and other players. It's easy when it is only you who is the player character and the rest are NPC's.

Basically I see the Dreadwyrm Trance as way of giving people those larger temporary Summons from classic FF's. When the Summon comes in does a pretty move then disappears. The mechanics are exactly the same. Granted it's not as dramatic or as drawn out as Bahamut Zero from FFVII, But for an MMO what do you realistically expect? It's the flashiest move in the game now, which leads onto another very flashy ability. Technically the Dreadwyrm Trance is no different to a traditional FF Summon.

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I agree with you.
I think it would've been better if they actually changed form for a short period, like Iceheart does in the story.
I guess maybe the PC doesn't know how to do that, but if they can justify summoning Bahamut's power in the first place, there might be leeway.
The mechanic already seems to work similar to WoW's Demonology Warlock who actually turns into a Demon rotationally and then gets access to different abilities after building a secondary resource (much like the stacks).

I guess they haven't had any complete character transformations outside of bring turned into frogs or chickens.
It's likely they're going in that direction either way from the looks of it, and there is precedent in the story.
A SMN turning into a primal and controlling it would be a great way to emphasize the primals while not revamping the job into a complete pet class.
Story or mechanics may be holding it back from being a complete transformation.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I guess they haven't had any complete character transformations outside of bring turned into frogs or chickens.
It's likely they're going in that direction either way from the looks of it, and there is precedent in the story.

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I agree, but personally I think if we see any more Trances it will be of the other Elder Primals, since a SMN needs to absorb at least 3 SMN job crystals in order to summon the Egi of an Elder Primal. I think in terms of regular Primals they will always come in the form of an Egi, most likely via a glamour. Allowing SE to focus on bringing more depth to the current 3 Egi types. I don't understand why people are acting as if the Egi are gone, they will always be around. It doesn't have to be one way or the other people....bloody hell.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

The one thing that is irking people is no new Egi and the sad thing is they could have easily added one in the form of a timed pet like WoW's Infernal. Use Dreadwyrm Trance summons Bahamut Egi, who starts dps'ing while starting a __sec countdown to Tera Flare. The more bahamut stacks you have the higher damage his flare does at the end. After Tera Flare, Bahamut goes back to the void, cooldown and repeat. Boom, everyone happy...

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Posted this in another thread but this is my stance on the "major design". All I see is a lot of missed opportunities and I'm not the only one.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Well personally I think if we see anymore Trances it will be of the other Elder Primals, since a SMN needs to absorb at least 3 SMN job crystals in order to summon the Egi of an Elder Primal. I think in terms of regular Primal's they will always come in the form of an Egi, most likely via a glamour. Allowing SE to focus on bringing more depth to the current 3 Egi types. I don't understand why people are acting as if the Egi are gone, they will always be around. It doesn't have to be one way or the other people....bloody hell.

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Yea, I think for now they can just develop a Bahamut transformation now.
There's no reason they can't develop the Egis as part of the SMN arsenal while the SMN builds up power to take on the form of Bahamut and unleash that power himself.

I think that's a good direction to go with SMN, but I bet more people would be appeased now if there's was more of a visual representation of Bahamut while in a Trance rather than just during activation.
This game never usually shies away from visual overload, and such complete transformations have been done successfully in other MMOs without being overwhelming.

I really wouldn't be surprised if it's a lore reason why we can't have a complete transformation right away.
Because that is a more likely reason from SE.
Especially since the PC is talking casually with Iceheart in that Dragonsong trailer, perhaps she can teach SMN to control a complete primal transformation as she did.
Or some other iteration.
There's really dozens of ways to transform a character to show they've taken on the power of the Elder Primal.
Right now, we'll settle for an Echo of that with his head upon activation. But I really think (or hope) they'll go further with it.

In the future, you should get a complete action set while in the Trance and transformed.
Much like FFX onward, where the Summons had multiple moves that you controlled yourself.
Maybe ending with a mini-Limit Break which we already have in Akh Morn.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

There's really dozens of ways to transform a character to show they've taken on the power of the Elder Primal.
Right now, we'll settle for an Echo of that with his head upon activation. But I really think (or hope) they'll go further with it.

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Exactly. Also have people ever thought that maybe when you go into Dreadwyrm Trance and build Bahamut Aether stacks, that the Bahamut head actually stays above the SMN during this time until Akh Morn is used!? The video was simply a montage of each new ability, but that doesn't mean some of those abilities can last longer in actual game play. So perhaps people should give SE the benefit of the doubt until they actually have Dreadwyrm Trance for real...coz for all we know the Bahamut head could actually stay out constantly during Trance. Or maybe SMN will eventually get a passive that improves the Dreadwyrm Trance and also alters the SMN's appearance when used. There are so many possibilities, but either way the Egi arent going anywhere so where's the actual issue right now? other than superficial bitching.....

SE didn't show all the new skills to Summoner they added and the all current skills that got reworked all they showed was 2 new abilities gained at level 60. Wait till E3 where we have full patch notes and potencies before making complaints.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

SE didn't show all the new skills to Summoner they added and the all current skills that got reworked all they showed was 2 new abilities gained at level 60. Wait till E3 where we have full patch notes and potencies before making complaints.

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Never thought I'd find myself quoting Akiza, but anywho.

If you check the video again, they clearly showed five abilities. Considering the level cap is going up 10 levels, they will likely be acquired at 52, 54, 56, 58, and 60.

BLM also seemingly got 5 new abilities in their much more in-depth preview.
That might be the number across the board for Jobs.

Not sure about class abilities or if they're even continuing that (with the new Jobs not even having classes and all).

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Never thought I'd find myself quoting Akiza, but anywho.

If you check the video again, they clearly showed five abilities. Considering the level cap is going up 10 levels, they will likely be acquired at 52, 54, 56, 58, and 60.

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LOL, Akiza is happy with the new direction so what does that tell you =P

Oh well, if people are happy with changes than I guess I'm happy they are happy /shrug.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Also have people ever thought that maybe when you go into Dreadwyrm Trance and build Bahamut Aether stacks, that the Bahamut head actually stays above the SMN during this time until Akh Morn is used!?

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Yeah, that would be great for things that require you to stack or pay attention for markings over your head like divebombs or conflags. Let's throw more shit up there.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

Yeah, that would be great for things that require you to stack or pay attention for markings over your head like divebombs or conflags. Let's throw more shit up there.

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Oh I agree, but I'm not complaining about the Bahamut head not being a permanent feature on display when in Trance. But either way we don't know the duration of the visual effect, maybe last longer making it feel more like a worthwhile Summon (as some would say) or maybe and most likely is a very temporary thing.

They could totally go FF13 route and give us giant primal mechas.

I'd be down for that.

When DRGs enter Dragon Blood mode they get an effect on them that persists for the duration of the buff. Why can't SMNs get a silhouette of Bahamut around their body whilst in Trance or something like that? Maybe even just claws or wings? Just something to indicate a partial transformation. When Iceheart summons Shiva she transforms into Shiva. What we're doing with Bahamut is the same thing so there should really be some kind of transformation that lasts the duration of the trance.

This would go a LONG way to making Dreadwyrm Trance feel more like a summon and less like an arbitrary cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Did they change it to slashing? I remember it was confirmed to be buffed by Dragon Kick(Blunt Damage) before.
But I haven't kept up with SMN changes or the Ifrit buff.

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Ifrit's Burning Strike is slashing damage while his auto attack is blunt damage. So he does both.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

When Iceheart summons Shiva she transforms into Shiva. What we're doing with Bahamut is the same thing so there should really be some kind of transformation that lasts the duration of the trance.

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Although I agree an appearance change for SMN would be awesome when they go into DT. However there is one key difference between us and Iceheart, which is that she is using her body as a vessel for ALL of the Aether, allowing the Primal Shiva to be born. Shiva was not a Primal before this point.

With DT we are only summoning/absorbing a small portion of Bahamut's Aether, so any physical change in the SMN would probably be small. If there was to be a transformation introduced, personally I would like to see something similar to FFIX's Trance mode.

I volunteer as tribute to absorb all of Bahamut's aether.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Although I agree an appearance change for SMN would be awesome when they go into DT. However there is one key difference between us and Iceheart, which is that she is using her body as a vessel for ALL of the Aether, allowing the Primal Shiva to be born. Shiva was not a Primal before this point.

With DT we are only summoning/absorbing a small portion of Bahamut's Aether, so any physical change in the SMN would probably be small. If there was to be a transformation introduced, personally I would like to see something similar to FFIX's Trance mode.

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Now SMN have to gather 5k crystals before each fight in order to transform into a primal.

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Originally Posted by Lethorian

Now SMN have to gather 5k crystals before each fight in order to transform into a primal.

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Haha oh lord, could you imagine? crystals would be in such demand at that point, the price of them would sky rocket.

A little over halfway down the page they discuss SMN spell speed and Akh Morn (apparently called Deathflare) from the hands on section of the recent event.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ream/?sort=new

Here's information on smn:

sources:
http://www.twitch.tv/pcgamesn
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...view?sle=true#


Tri-Bind - ((What is currently Tri-Disaster in ARR))
Tri-Disaster - Consumes an Aetherflow to apply Bio, Bio II, and Miasma on target.
Dreadwyrm Trance - Applies stacks of Bahamut Aether Which can be spent on various abilities while Aetherflow is on cooldown.
Deathflare - Giant laser that hits an AoE for massive damage (Like Akh Morn). Consumes 3 stacks of Bahamut Aether.
Painflare - Uses Bahamut Aether. Consumes less than Deathflare, possibly for more damage? More info is needed.
DoTs hit harder based on spell Speed.


Ahk-Morn: AoE, does around 2.7-3k non-crit as a reference.

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Originally Posted by ThirdKeyOfSun

A little over halfway down the page they discuss SMN spell speed and Akh Morn (apparently called Deathflare) from the hands on section of the recent event.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ream/?sort=new

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You mean its not even called Ahk Morn?? So all the people drooling over this can finally shut up about it?

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Originally Posted by Galand

You mean its not even called Ahk Morn?? So all the people drooling over this can finally shut up about it?

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Deathflare.... Circle of Death (what Ahk-Morn translates to). Deathflare is rather nice too.

So no....


AHK-MORN!!!!!


BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!