Carraway's Guide to the New Archer: 1.18 and Beyond

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

Yes from what we know.

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so using a garuda bow could possibly lower your piety cap from 350ish to 320 or so further more reducing the amount of damage you can output.

hmm when will we see the first "fix garuda weapons thread" ,lol

thank you guys for the answers ^^

It looks like we're going to have to reevaluate weapons, according to some new preliminary testing provided by Kaeko. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing the link here:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/107...=1#post5196311

The gist of it is that Light Shot damage pivots around weapon base damage, whereas WS damage pivots around calculated weapon DPS.

After looking at his results, I did some very, very brief testing of my own on the Moogle fight with Garuda's Spine. My gearset and eating Jerked Beef put me at 308 DEX, 326 PIE, and 574 ATK. Of course, Moogle is also the worst possible fight for testing, since there's such a huge range of defense values for the targets, but if I just isolate my damage against Pomburner over two fights, here's what I get:

Light Shot avg 220
Heavy Shot avg 482
Piercing Arrow avg 473
Gloom Arrow avg 458
Leaden Arrow avg 465

I parsed against another BRD with extremely similar gear (she has triple ATK gloves instead of my STRx1+ATKx2 gloves, and slightly more PIE on her body piece than I do). Her averages against Pomburner with Ifrit's:

Light Shot avg 282
Heavy Shot avg 442
Piercing Arrow avg 455
Gloom Arrow avg 413

The sample size was really low, but this does corroborate the general line of Kaeko's testing.

Now, what does this mean for us? I'm not sure yet. I think Miser's Mistress probably presents the best testbed for weapon vs. weapon breakdowns, so I'll see what I can do about getting results from that fight. I would of course also be grateful for further corroboration from any other source, as long as the data has the proper context (all stats as close to controlled as possible vs. weapon base damage, i.e. if using Ifrit's Bow, wear Explorer's Choker, and if using Garuda's Spine, wear Electrum Gorget +1).

I'm not sure to understand the meaning of this new information, we will need more or less DEX/PIE at the end with a garuda weapon ? Also is it better to use the ifrit bow or the garuda bow ? (because the last time i checked, my first source of damage was Light Shot)

Well interesting development indeed. I think this puts the Garuda weapons as BiS for general use for all melee jobs, as well as ARC/BRD. Increasing the damage from WS is a hefty benefit, however let's not forget that Light Shot doesn't interrupt combos anymore so being able to use Light Shot significantly more often should more than make up for the lower AA damage. The DPS on the Spine is over 4 points higher than Ifrit's Bow.

what food do most bard use nowadays?

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Originally Posted by Miltani

what food do most bard use nowadays?

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Jerked Beef for PIE/ATK

i thought bard caps were 330 pie 300 dex?

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Originally Posted by Akira

i thought bard caps were 330 pie 300 dex?

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With Ifrit's Bow equipped yes. The DPS on Garuda's Spine is significantly higher and thus the stat caps are also higher. That's the point.

With Garuda's Spine they're closer to 355 PIE and 313 DEX or so.

so the stat caps are higher with garudas spine?

Weapon skill damage stat caps are based on weapon DPS, yes.

so AA stat caps are base dmg and ws dmg stat caps are dps?

I think you guys are confusing derived Light Shot damage and derived WS damage with stat caps. Stat caps for Garuda weapons are still unknown and untested (unless someone's done that and I haven't seen the results yet).

What Kaeko tested, and I verified, was that Light Shot damage pivots upon your weapon's base damage, while WS damage pivots upon your weapon's calculated DPS.

Hmm... with the word "caps" being used and the questions towards the end of Kaeko's post about testing regarding the difference in damage if the higher caps with Garuda weapons not being reached I figured you guys were referring to stat caps.

That being said it's my understanding that the Damage and DPS stats are the pivotal stats for AA and WS damagw respectively, but also what the stat caps are based on as well. It particularly makes sense, and can be considered verified or at least highly probable, in part due to what we already had established about ARC/BRD stat caps and how they are lower than other DoW stat caps which are otherwise uniform with Ifrit's weapons being that Ifrit's Bow is the only one of the bunch with a DPS value significantly lower than the rest.

Quick question regarding Quelling Strike as it relates to the consumption of Raging Strike - it's +450 TP regardless of Raging Strike charge, or does it vary, depending on charge load? My apology for the simple question. Thanks.

NVM, and sorry guys, I found the answer a few pages back.

I want to see what happens when you take spine and bump up pie to 350+ and dex to 310+ then compare the results with the same setup vs ifrit bow/mog bow

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Hmm... with the word "caps" being used and the questions towards the end of Kaeko's post about testing regarding the difference in damage if the higher caps with Garuda weapons not being reached I figured you guys were referring to stat caps.

That being said it's my understanding that the Damage and DPS stats are the pivotal stats for AA and WS damagw respectively, but also what the stat caps are based on as well. It particularly makes sense, and can be considered verified or at least highly probable, in part due to what we already had established about ARC/BRD stat caps and how they are lower than other DoW stat caps which are otherwise uniform with Ifrit's weapons being that Ifrit's Bow is the only one of the bunch with a DPS value significantly lower than the rest.

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its also possible that in 1.22 they removed stats being capped by any sort of calculation and put a hard cap for each lvl.

Mog weapons have a higher dps then ifrit i believe yet before 1.22 they were tested to have a lower stat cap which would mean in patch 1.22 the implementation of stat caps was changed.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

its also possible that in 1.22 they removed stats being capped by any sort of calculation and put a hard cap for each lvl.

Mog weapons have a higher dps then ifrit i believe yet before 1.22 they were tested to have a lower stat cap which would mean in patch 1.22 the implementation of stat caps was changed.

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Actually, Ifrit and Mog weapons have very comparable DPS values. Also most testing pre patch was done comparing Ifrit weapons versus crafted weapons and such, not Mog weapons.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Actually, Ifrit and Mog weapons have very comparable DPS values. Also most testing pre patch was done comparing Ifrit weapons versus crafted weapons and such, not Mog weapons.

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well i remember reading some testing that had mog weapons capped several points below ifrits, so it must have been one of those test that weren't considered "most".

but even if they are close in dps, which i knew they were, but i thought mog was a lil better(irrelevant) using mog weapons before stats were capped lower then ifrit(stats capping to damage)

so either it was bad testing or they changed the means of capping.

From Seiken's original testing:

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Originally Posted by Seiken

Another tidbit of data that me and my LS mate kaeko have been trying to analyze is that the "cap" for all the classes is not a fixed value. It has various factors that influence the caps. For example, If you parse on an Ifrit's Axe versus a Mog Axe you will find that the stats cap 3-5 points lower. If you wear a really low base damage weapon (I tested on a weapon with 59 base damage) you will find you have already capped your stats without wearing any gear. The frustrating part of the testing is that different Jobs/Classes have different Base Damage values for Ifrit Weapons, yet they all cap pretty much at the same values. Also, the base damage difference (as far I can tell) seems to be non-linear in stat cap influence. Most of this testing was pre-1.21 so once the game quiets down again I'll go back and revisit the data.

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Now, if stat caps were based on calculated weapon DPS all along, this would make sense as to why different base damage Ifrit's weapons all lead to the same range of stat caps. It would also make sense as to why BRD's stat caps were so much lower with Ifrit's Bow vs other jobs, because the calculated DPS on Ifrit's Bow is 36.74, vs. Battleaxe's 39.77 or Harpoon's 39.74 or Claws' 39.7. Moogle weapons for DRG, MNK, and WAR also have very slightly lower calculated DPS than Ifrit weapons.

However, I personally haven't done any stat cap testing in 1.22, nor has anyone else to my knowledge, so I'm only speculating.

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Originally Posted by carraway

From Seiken's original testing:



Now, if stat caps were based on calculated weapon DPS all along, this would make sense as to why different base damage Ifrit's weapons all lead to the same range of stat caps. It would also make sense as to why BRD's stat caps were so much lower with Ifrit's Bow vs other jobs, because the calculated DPS on Ifrit's Bow is 36.74, vs. Battleaxe's 39.77 or Harpoon's 39.74 or Claws' 39.7. Moogle weapons for DRG, MNK, and WAR also have very slightly lower calculated DPS than Ifrit weapons.

However, I personally haven't done any stat cap testing in 1.22, nor has anyone else to my knowledge, so I'm only speculating.

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Pretty much how my line of thinking is. It just seems cohesive and explains the trend of caps even prior to 1.22.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Pretty much how my line of thinking is. It just seems cohesive and explains the trend of caps even prior to 1.22.

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Yeah, sorry if I jumped on you for semantic reasons, but I just wanted to emphasize how important it is that we thoroughly test theories before using them as explanations.

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Originally Posted by carraway

Yeah, sorry if I jumped on you for semantic reasons, but I just wanted to emphasize how important it is that we thoroughly test theories before using them as explanations.

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Oh, no worries I didn't take it as such anyway. I agree and would love to see some in-depth testing.

Would you gentlemen like a spot of tea?

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Would you gentlemen like a spot of tea?

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Don't hate on the bromance.

Sure I would like a spot of tea. I drink my tea like a sir.

Pinkies out, cucumber sandwiches. Scotch on the rocks afterward.

Where should my dex be? Skimmed over topic but didnt see anything on OP about it

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Originally Posted by Dufer

Where should my dex be? Skimmed over topic but didnt see anything on OP about it

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300 DEX if using Ifrit's Bow.

Hello. This has been a very informative thread..

I am looking for a little advice though. I am having some trouble deciding on my stats. I am by no means a "Rich" bard nor am i fortunately lucky to get any DL drops for bard =(. I am willing to work towards goals though. What I have is as follows and some pointers or advice would be much appreciated.

Head: AF (almost at crown)
Weapon: have both Garuda and Ifrit
Body: Rainmakers Tunic with 2x Piety
Waist: Scarlet Sash or Vet. Field Belt
Hands: ATK x2 Felt Bracers (also have DEX x2 felt bracers)
Legs: AF
Feet: Explorer's Moccasins
Accessories: HQ Tourmaline Rings, Tourmaline Bracelet, Explorer's Earring, HQ Electrum Choker.

now without the DEX gloves, I sit at 260 DEX, 319 PIE, 570 ATK.

if I sub the DEX gloves in, it puts me at 290 DEX, 319 PIE, 516 ATK.

I am working on a new body to add +12 more PIE currently and am looking for advice as to what i could do or go for in other slots.
I am also having a difficult time acquiring some +DEX materias for pants =/.

any suggestions are welcomed

For the leg slot I use raptorskin Subligar Double melded t3 Swordsman's cry. The t4 are 400k a pop on my server . Also there is a what to wear section on the first page =]

I didn't see it in the list on the front page, but what about woolen sarouel of invoking for the leg slot? it's listed as DoM or DoW and +4 dex +4 pie 11 eva

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Originally Posted by Promethevs

I didn't see it in the list on the front page, but what about woolen sarouel of invoking for the leg slot? it's listed as DoM or DoW and +4 dex +4 pie 11 eva

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Because of the Sarouel's item level, you cannot meld Tier IV materia to it.

Very informative topic. I've been using this information as I gear up and I've seen a noticeable change in my dps, especially in Moogle. Thanks for the guide and the work.

P.S. - If you need a guinea pig sometime, let me know.

Would Felt Kecks also be good for leg slot before the trousers as they have 4 PIE?

Most of the discussions are too indepth for me :o
I tried reading everything but at some point my head started spinning, so I'll just ask directly:

Dex, Pie and Atk, how much do I need for each of those?
I've seen the "300 for DEX"-answer, but I don't know how much PIE and ATK are needed to be considered good..?
(I'm using Ifrit Bow)

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Most of the discussions are too indepth for me :o
I tried reading everything but at some point my head started spinning, so I'll just ask directly:

Dex, Pie and Atk, how much do I need for each of those?
I've seen the "300 for DEX"-answer, but I don't know how much PIE and ATK are needed to be considered good..?
(I'm using Ifrit Bow)

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300 DEX, 330 PIE with Ifrit's Bow. Once you cap those you can start adding Attack Power. Above all though, Make sure to get your accuracy to at least the 95-100% area.

Thank you for the answer :)
I don't miss very often so I don't feel like accuracy is a problem, but I'm not sure how to check it.
I only see a number ~400 in my stats, no percentage.

Only way is to parse I'm afraid, but stay above 400 on BRD and it should be fine considering you stack DEX anyway

So Dex isnt our primary stat? I thought I needed 350dex/310 pie or something like that

the oposite Dufer. Garuda's Spine 350 Piety and 310 Dexterity and it really depends on what bow you are using. with ifrits bow you can get away with less dex and pie. about 330 pie 300 dex