Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Even in FF XIV 1.0 (like Ifrit Extreme) it was more forgiving, but still MORE challenging than 2.0's Ifrit Extreme. I remember a few runs in random /shout parties in 1.0, where we had 4 - 5 deaths (back then, we also had people who could use a Raise GC Item), and we were still able to recover and kill Ifrit EX. That wouldn't be possible in 2.0.

Another great point is the feeling that if you're a good enough player (or have enough of them), that they can "combine" and overcome a few mistakes from lesser-skilled players and still have success for the whole party.

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Totally agree, without this feeling, there is a less of a community because older players can't efficiently help newer players.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Even in FF XIV 1.0 (like Ifrit Extreme) it was more forgiving, but still MORE challenging than 2.0's Ifrit Extreme. I remember a few runs in random /shout parties in 1.0, where we had 4 - 5 deaths (back then, we also had people who could use a Raise GC Item), and we were still able to recover and kill Ifrit EX. That wouldn't be possible in 2.0.

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1.0's Ifrit Ex was not challenging in the way you would expect. The only difficulty in that fight was fighting the unresponsive UI and horrible servers. 2.0's Ifrit Ex only has 1 insta-wipe mechanic, failing to kill nails in time, exactly the same as 1.0. You can also recover fine from many deaths in the new version and still win.

Pretty much agree with the entire post, there's absolutely nothing challenging with a scripted predetermined fight when you know exactly what a boss or group of mobs are about to do. Once you've memorized it, you can eventually get it down to the point of being able to do the entire fight without being hit once. But in all honesty, screw scripted fights, I'd rather have the old fights from FFXI back where its either kill it or be killed, none of this dodge or die crap anymore.

I loved the idea of being able to do content with as many or few people as I wanted, hell I used to dualbox Salvage around the time I quit FFXI because I could and it was easy simply due to the immense difference in content lv vs my own lv and gear/skill. What actually got me to quitting FFXI, was the fact I couldn't do half of the harder content because the people who were able to do it weren't there anymore or their group(s) were full already. On top of the fact that the relics and empyrean weapons I managed to make were made useless at the release of SoA.

Adding ilvs to REMDs and other gear in XI is what killed the game for me since it was forced on the game after it'd been around for so long already. Item Levels are a part of XIV and have been since it's re-release which is fine, but I can't stand not being able to do content because a majority of the players who do play the game can't handle it, or better yet, someone's computer/system or internet can't handle the fight and causes wipes, looking at you Titan EX. I don't consider myself an elitist/hardcore gamer, nor do I expect other people to be able to dodge every single thing in the game, let alone memorize every single attack pattern of every single boss fight in the game just to clear anything....that's just plain retarded.

The coil group that I used to have which disbanded due to one or more people not wanting to really learn the new content (SCoB t1) was a fun group and all, but some of the people couldn't handle learning and executing the proper movements to be able to dodge certain mechanics in t5, so it took the group something like 2-3 months of practicing the fight to finally be able to clear it once and in all honesty it was nothing but pure luck, mostly due to connections working properly to a point and a decent recovery. But they took one attempt in SCoB t1 (t6) and it was a complete and utter failure, managed to see phase2 for a brief 5 seconds before wiping. But what did I hear the entire time over TeamSpeak? "The mechanics aren't fun" and they're right, its not fun learning brand new mechanics for every single boss fight in the game that's released simply to memorize a specific rotation of skills that a boss/mobs uses throughout the fight until it dies. This isn't content, this is a game of memory that honestly not everyone can handle, that is NOT what endgame should be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I hate the game, I actually enjoy it a lot and I'll give props to the dev team for being able to revive a game that was practically considered dead. But I think they may want to replay FFXI and a few other games back around the time they were really good and do a bit more thinking before adding some more "end-game content". However at the same time, the endgame content is rather dull and boring since its nothing but "learn boss rotation" and win. Tank and spank can be boring, but I enjoy seeing how quickly I can kill something in the game and trying to beat personal records, then again I'm also a DPS so obviously I enjoy DPS checks.

+1 support for OP. Do away with the one hit kill effects but retain the mechanics. Let it deal some major debuff that would test the skills of the team in using their jobs.

For example, healer gets stoned in T7. The other healer needs to buck up and other players need to watch for AOE moves to interrupt (yeah requires the team to avoid stun spamming to avoid stun resistance) to keep stoned player alive.

In T5, stepping into a Twister throws the player high into the air and he\\'ll drop with 1hp left. The team is inconvenienced for maybe 2 GCDs, team has to compensate for this dynamically. If OT gets thrown, MT or DPS helps with stunning of DK. Healer stand by to big heal player when he lands.

I\\'d also like to see new end game dungeon crawlers instead of the current arcade game style raids. These dungeons should test players on their ability to play their jobs well, instead of reacting to one hit kill gimmicks.

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Originally Posted by Naiser

I\\'d also like to see new end game dungeon crawlers instead of the current arcade game style raids. These dungeons should test players on their ability to play their jobs well, instead of reacting to one hit kill gimmicks.

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No. This is what SE wants. They knew this going into the game.

I agree with a good amount of what the OP talks about. I quit and unsubbed months and months ago. This was caused by my leading the third coil group in or FC when it got big enough that we needed it. A dubious honor at best. And I got burned out and I will explain why in a way that relates to the OP.
I did not want to pay monthly to do the equivalent of the combined task of herding cats while having them perform synchronized swimming. The claw marks and headaches were not worth the possible feline Olympic medals.

Due to the fact that I was the third coil group to be made I had to take our members who were the least talented and couldn't cut it for the other groups. This made me log on less and less. As we lost members who just couldn't do it, or who were grabbed for the other coil groups or times for people didn't sync up we'd end up with 4 core people who showed constantly who were awesome. 1 person who was awesome but her schedule was a little shaky. 1 who showed up who did her best. She honest to god did, but had a lot of problems.

Due to the limited number of people in our FC who were good enough to do coil and other end game content without being dragged through by force(This said as a paladin and warrior who ilvl 55 weapon tanked through HM titan for both relics early on) we had to start trying to recruit people on a Legacy server. We'd make huge progress with two people,. then lose them. We had some people switch their main jobs to accommodate strategies and assist with recruiting(Much props to Cupcake and Urd if they read these boards still). But each time we lost the non FC people who'd want a group that got frustrated at some of our turn 4 failures(Which included our 1 ok healer screwing up and their own mistakes mostly) or who ended up having schedule changes it would set us back weeks as we'd recruit and them get the new members up to speed.

Now why did I type all that? Because I'm going to break it down to how the OP brings up all those problems.

1a) Setting the groups as they have now is too stifling. There is no creativity or even ROOM for it with the lack of classes that feel different. People talk about the good ole XI. There was some good to it. One thing even old FFXI had that nobody really credits is that all monsters had a "Desperation" type AI in that they fought more tenaciously depending on how their health got (Less HP left more often they'd use TP attacks). Everything is do things exactly how others do to win with the only changes made after wipes. IMO one of the best games before it got muddled by EA was actually DAoC. Even though it's focus on PVP was the primary part of it and totally awesome, you had PVE encounters that were the SECONDARY part of the game but were fun and had multiple ways to deal with it. DPS tanks? Yep. Look at blademaster/Mercenary. pet tanks? Yep. Every pet class but hunters. All games have mechanics. The OP doesn't say mechanics are bad. The OP basically says that mechanics for the sake of mechanics are bad. Challenging can be fun. I wouldn't have beat Fire Emblem: Awakening on Lunatic+ if it wasn't(Although I'll admit I turned it off many times before i threw my 3ds against a wall on the path to that victory. Also I think I'm less sane than when I started it).

1b) Side note here. FFXI was not perfect but people are always so quick to judge it harshly. They're also too quick to damn every expansion past what the thought was "the real" game. I'll admit, sky farming was more about socializing than any real challenge unless you did it lowman. No arguments. Most of the BCNM's were pretty fun esp the story ones. Bone parties involving white mages and monks? Fun as hell. Nin/rng/rng/rng/rng/rdm static? That was just fun to heal. Divine might was brought up and to this day I still feel badass when I hear the Warrior's of the Crystal. But NM's? Hated the waiting back then, hated it when I had to do them for my Ukko's in aby. I feel Abysea had some of the most interesting and diverse content especially before the 99 level cap increase. I hear they even give out a bunch of the great Atmas free now. Although would be hard to get groups for the procs now so I guess that's ok. But before the caps were raised the monsters there were unique and if you had skill you could low man them. Or you could take your whole LS and beat stuff up. But you still had procs and other stuff. The expansions from Promy+ were amazing in groupable content and kept learning from previous expansions. Even Zilart which was the equivalent of 2.0, had a lot of VERY interesting fights, gear that you coudl get through both NM farming, crafting or HNM/sky. Or BCNM. The point was OPTIONS even when Zilart first came out. Make no mistake, this game is a Realm Reborn. It pretty much IS the first expansion.

2) At least on my server my friends list plummeted before I quit which was a major factor in me quitting. I'd meet good players. I'd meet great players. I'd meet excellent players. I'd friend them all and group with them for stuff that was applicable. IE at the time I would not take 7 good players to titan HM. Maybe 3-4 and hope that all but 1 can dodge. At first I was fairly successful and happy at pulling my friends list people into coil but many of them stopped playing because just having coil was a pretty piss poor thing for most of them since they were relic and everything already. Guess that's partially our fault for being Legacy characters and having supported the game before it came out as 2.0. But in the end almost all of them just stopped logging on. People I had fun with and grouped with just disappeared. To say people aren't quitting is false. There may be new people coming into the game but think very carefully on if they're going to stay and why they might leave. Did people before them leave? Why. I left because the game was too stressful and I wasn't having fun but I felt responsible to continue doing coil with my FC while i still played(Self imposed and probably foolish but aren't we all foolish?). This is a truth you can all ignore or deny but it doesn't make it any less true. Less players = less money. Less money = less of everything. I still come to this board every once in a while to see if things are changing. I want this game to succeed and I want to maybe come back someday but I've got entirely too many other games I can play and things to do that it's not worth the stress as of now. One thing I am noticing is less voices of reason and more people who just shoot off from the hip acting like jerks to anyone who hasn't done what they've done or looks down on everyone. People who agree or disagree with the OP, that's fine. People who are jerks about it and don't add anything to the convo but keep insulting people you're laughable. If you want a complicated game, and want to be truly "Elite" in the real sense of the gaming word, go to EQ. App to Triton on Povar-Rodcet-Quellius. Make it to members and we'll talk about being "Elite" or "Hardcore". Been there, done that. Some of the most skilled gamers I know in that guild but they'd rip most people to pieces.

3) This partially ties in to 2, loss of a member of a static often leads to trying to find someone who can fill that role. I knew Turn 5 wasn't going to beat itself. I knew that just because we cleared turn 4 before didn't mean we'd get it with 2 fresh no 50's in the group who hadn't played with us before. But god forbid with ragequit mindset this game has that someone make a mistake on turn 1. Or turn 2. Keep this in mind, we had a few weeks where we'd do turn 2/3 without a single wipe. No wipe on Cad either. But you can sure as hell bet we SOMEHOW wiped on ADS because we were just getting warmed up, some of us were distracted or someone lagged. Now with the people I went with we laughed it up and then went to beat up the snake. But many people would ragequit out of a group that did that. As a matter of fact we had a bard ragequit our because they didn't silence once on one of those wipes(With the other bard DCing when power went out and me as the paladin tank having only one silence). We repped them and moved on. Things happen. And while this was a case purely bad luck and a terrible pug, unless you're able to sell wins to certain fights you often aren't geared enough to carry 2 people. Now you might think "Well just get more people." But the thing is, if the other 6 people can't say do stuff that picks up the slack for people from the get go you have those 6 people constantly wiping. They get frustrated because where we breezed through stuff before we now were limping again and waiting on people to learn. People then showed up late or decided to 'accidentally' get grabbed by the older more established Coil groups. When I left a number of other people had already prepared me for the possibility that they were likely to quit soon so I was also looking for possible reps for them. I then dumped that on our Drg who took over. But it's a domino effect. Having wiggle room in a fight does NOT mean it has to be easy. There is nothing truly inspired by the fights. Nothing really new unless you count the lag some people had(Thankfully I didn't know anyone with the always on super lag that some people complained about). but back to that point, you now have a Coil group of 6. It became a coil group of 4. That had lost it's main tank and a Bard / white mage. I honestly dunno if the group is still going but if it's not that's one less group of people doing stuff. I know the other tank was thinking about quitting and if you lose both tanks and are down that much you're probably looking at the death of a group. And while we had some great players we also had some great people in that group who were willing to help/recruit people and provided they put the effort in run with them. Each less group of people that leaves is one less opportunity for newer people hitting endgame to break in.

4) Hardcore. I've raided in just about every game i've played. The most true hardcore raiding was in DAoC vs other players. They were the most challenging opponents. Here everyone calls themselves hardcore if they can dodge some mechanics and pull a simple rotation. I you want to do something that any bot could do more power to you. And saying there were no mechanics to the turn 4 means you never tanked or healed it in all likelyhood because you needed to know when the mechanics of spiders and spinner Rooks and the wonderful kill order for your group on the knights and such. The thing is though, that fight over time will become clearable by anyone according to gear and echo upgrades. Now for people who get pissed at that, I ask... Why? It's old. Nobody cares. People did it months ago. I did it months and months ago when I still played. It was a challenge then and you could actually make up for things there with amazing gameplay and correct rotations of cooldowns(Skill with your job rather than dancing). Regardless of calling into question Turn 4's difficulty before all the new gear that's out now, does someone doing it with echo stacks and gear that outshines anything that could have been gotten back when you did it diminish what you did if you beat it when it was still 'hard'? Does you having breakfast in the morning and living a comfortable life in the winter with clean water and comforts diminish the achievements of the people who came before us who didn't have such things? No. It doesn't. It's like you complaining someone got a 2008 Cobalt for less than you. When you bought it back when it was brand new, and they're getting it with 80k miles on it with some moderate use. I dunno why I picked that but my friend does own a 2008 although it's not a Cobalt but I did see one that beat up as hell at the VA today).

5) Looking at the OP as a whole rather than just picking points out, and saying "They want an easy game anyone can do" they're more saying that they want a game that people can play, have fun with and encourages a social experience without killing the challenge for the people who enjoy it while giving them the rewards for that challenge. They don't want people driven off by a lack of things to do. And for all the people talking about "casual content" Beast man Dailies, chocobo leveling and other crap wasn't fun. Never will be fun. Makes me want to kick a puppy. Just because a person CAN do something doesn't mean they should or will want to. Does everyone here want to go watch moss grow on a rock outside? It's casual. Anyone can do it. Not fun, but it's an option. And that's the SAME thing you idiots who won't even have a constructive conversation are saying.

And that's me being done again for a few months. To those who were constructive but disagreed with some parts of the OP. Litre is one who shows a great deal of thought and respect to those he talks to and seems to consider both sides of the argument. There are others on both sides of the argument who were also respectful and it gives me some hope but for now, I'm betting the game is even more toxic than when I left with rage quits and trolls as far as the eye can see. So with that, I bid you all good day if this thing will stop logging me out for some unknown damned reason.

They have nerfed coil mechanics in the past, like High Voltage being cleansable, and probably the first set of T5 nerfs that I don't really remember well.

I can probably see them making it so Esuna/Leeches can remove T7's petrification and stuff like that in the future.

It's not so much about nerfing content but more about offering a new end game challenge build around testing players' ability to play their jobs well as opposed to dodging one shot kill mechanisms.

It could be about content that need tanks to know how to put up the best hate best damage mitigation while generating high snap aggro.

It could be about content that need healers to clear debuffs fast. Or DPS using their utility skills to disrupt enemy moves or debuff the boss.

It could be a randomised dungeon crawl filled with deadly enemies...

Just do away with the irrecoverable one hit kill.

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Originally Posted by Litre

So lets reiterate this again, get off your high horse, what's easy for you is not for others.

(1)
Less-skilled players? Who are we talking about here, remember Yoshida said under 5% of the player-base has beaten Turn 5. Yes so the PROs, you are skilled, and the less-skilled are the mainstream players. You are completely overlooking a large swath of players who tried Titan once and said "this isn't fun".

What do you mean by win in waves based on skill? You think they will keep regrouping, practicing and attempting it at the current difficulty, until there are enough people it reaches critical mass and then a wave of players beat it? Wrong, perhaps a few, but others will just quit (what we don't want). You don't know it, but you are coming off as really elitist, like you can't understand why it's so hard for others simply because you find it so easy.

(2)
But newsflash, I know a lot of people, who don't like that level of challenge.. They are playing the game for the story line and the experience, and when they beat it, they are happy to play on easy/normal mode.

At the current rate, we will simply bleed casual players until all we have left are your regular MMO players, it won't be Final Fantasy anymore. Just another MMO with FF style.

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Firstly, a BIG thank you to EmiliM for translating an extremely well-thought post by a Japanese player, and for stimulating a highly constructive discussion among the community.

Secondly, an even BIGGER thank you to Litre for reiterating the two key points I quoted above.

I suppose that I qualify as a "casual" player, in that my key focus in playing any RPG, be it single-player or an MMO, is to experience the story. This has always been the reason that I love the Final Fantasy franchise so much — it gave me a whole new way of looking at gaming. Games like FFX and FFVI, for example, showed me how video games could actually be a valid platform for storytelling, just like the tabletop, pen-and-paper RPGs of old.

That's not to say that I don't feel that games shouldn't be challenging. If they're too easy, then they're boring, and quite frankly, not fun. Also, I'm fully aware that I'm playing with other people when I play an MMORPG like FFXIV, and that gives me further motivation to do the best I can, in whatever role I choose, because I don't want to be the guy who wastes other people's time by my lack of prepardness.

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But I'd be the first to openly admit that I'll never be as "good" as a hardcore gamer with hours upon hours of previous experience in other games. Simply because that's just not the kind of gamer I am. I play for the story and role-play experience, and I don't particularly care about being "elite" or "uber". I just want to be good enough to make sure that I pull my weight.

And the way things are right now, I just can't get past Turn 5, simply because of bad luck. I've been stuck there since mid-April, having started playing the game regularly from last Christmas. And it's not for the lack of trying. It's simply the case that even if I get my role correct, there's bound to be one guy or another who doesn't.

I would love to stick it out to the end with the raid group, but sooner or later, those who are more experienced would simply throw up their arms in frustration and vote to abandon after two or three failures. I respect their decision but, inside, I'm saddened by the clear lack of solidarity to help the less-experienced players pull through.

Up until Turn 5, I've been able to complete major milestones at a steady clip, all the way through Turns 1 to 4. And it was this sense of steady progression that made me want to continue playing.

And the challenge level was still there back in mid-April, sufficient enough that the first pick-up raid group that I did Turn 4 with eventually abandoned it after three failed rounds.

Now, though, I don't feel like it's worth continuing any more, at least until the expansion comes around to give me sufficient story-based content to bother. Because I'm stuck, and I don't feel like there's a point to keep bashing my head against an obstacle that exists not entirely because of my own shortcomings.

So, yes, I do hope that Yoshida and his developers take not of this major post and consider a greater variety of end-game content that will satisfy not just the hardcore gamers, but also casuals like me. I don't want nerfed content. But I do want content that doesn't punish players so severely for simply not being able to follow a set script.

The important point that the writer want to point out is the game mechanics currently are really "scripted", which isn't good at all. He (or she) doesn't say want to nerf or make the game more and more casual.

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Originally Posted by kog985

The important point that the writer want to point out is the game mechanics currently are really "scripted", which isn't good at all. He (or she) doesn't say want to nerf or make the game more and more casual.

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pretty much.
tl;dr - They are saying the game is monorail content, cookie cutter.

i think the best choice it's to maybe look in the direction of the procedural generation, maybe randomize some part of the content, without go into a full random, but add some unknow in what will face. can increase drastically the replayability of the game.

OP nails it with the mechanics problem. I heard someone put it (think it was on Reddit) as "You are not learning your job, you are learning the boss". It makes artificially difficult (oh one guy got killed by an instant KO? Wipe!), and extremely boring once you yourself got it down.

Ive been around along time.. the OP was the best read I have had in a while and I would hope that whomever monitors and reads the forums on the Japanese side takes that post and posts it to Yoshi Ps and the teams computer screens literally

So I created a thread in the Japanese general discussion forum in reference to this:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...81%84%E3%81%A6

I doubt it'll get the same level of response it did here, seeing as how Japanese players tend to be far more stoic than the rest of us. Nevertheless, it should increase the chance of a dev (if not Yoshida himself) at least giving it a read and some thought.

I think most of us probably realize the issue we've raised here is embedded far too deep in the game for any kind of changes to happen right away. And chances are they can only keep churning out new contents and hope to somehow manage to hold people's interest long enough until the "casual" side of the game becomes more filled out, sort or like trying to make the carpet big enough to sweep things under.

I hope it works.

all we can do it's say it enough time for make them realize something is wrong and little by little change it... it's impossible to change all in one time it's a given, however, slowly make change into the game it's what they must do.

indeed the game can please a part of the community and can potentially stay like this. but it's that what yoshida wish for FF14: ARR, to be a niche game? or be a really good game that will keep player.
they need to open more the talk with us. he did say a lot in the past, that mmorpg it's a service, it's time to maybe do some survey about what they people really want. they can't simply judge from what we do. if something is not there we will not try it, if we have only the raid to do... it's what we will do. please Yoshida, do some survey, check what the people really feel about the game and what need to be adressed!

don't forget us, because we don't forget you, we are still there! we are still fighting for the game! don't abandon us

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Originally Posted by IgnisFatuus

on a personal note, I find it absolutely ridiculous to have to watch 15 minute videos to just "get" the mechanics of a fight, because theyre so impossibly obscure or tightly scripted that you can't just learn them by doing without 7 other people spitting venom at you. i'm very oldschool about that. watch video or GTFO is making me ask "why do i play this again".

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Oh I got venom spit at me in a separate "you-tube warrior" or gtfo thread, the mechanics being unforgiving has seen population react just as unforgivingly, this is part SE's mechanics, part playerbase reaction to it.

While I get frustration, "demanding" watching you-tube as a "courtesy" to other players over mechanics is pure trash.

To the original poster, bravo.

I swear to god you guys, if the next Coil is just four fights against training dummies... it's like few people here have actually played difficult games and instead just braindead stuff like FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Please tell me what's difficult in Coil once you have mastered the mechanics. I'd love to change my point of view.

Also, don't give us the "die-and-retry games were difficult". They were not difficult (ie, possible in one go by some random skilled player), they were designed to be impossible for 99.99% of the people and for the arcade.

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Do you know how many times I've seen people die to simple stuff like landslides or twisters, despite being absolutely clear by that point about exactly what they should been doing to survive them? I cannot count them.

Nothing is "difficult once you have mastered the mechanics" unless you start reaching the human reaction time limits, which XIV doesn't even come close to nor attempts to do so, and yet people keep failing on tasks where they actually should've already "mastered the mechanics". Because, really, what's so hard about "mastering a mechanic" like Landslide or Twisters? Nothing. If you die to it, your current skill level for that encounter is poor and you must improve.

But hey, that's all right people, keep on believing everything is easy and you just don't do it because "it's too boring" or fail at it because "it's not asking me to be skilled, it's asking me to have 10ms ping". I'm sure you'll love your gear carried "skill" encounters in the future, shall Yoshida actually listen to the people in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

I'll try to stay calm but...

Twisters or landslide are easy ?

try to listen to it at least once : it's easy for YOU. Doesn't mean it's easy for everyone (don't serve me the "you didn't do it and that's why you say that", I have beaten both T5 and titan Ex, both on a flawless basis, no hit taken apart the compulsory ones.)

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The mechanics behind twisters and landslide are so simple that there's no learning time for it. Summed up:

Landslide: move away from the straight rails that come out of Titan's center.
Twisters: move and don't stop moving until Twisters is finished casting. Don't cross paths with anyone else nor yourself.

Are those not easy enough for you? I cannot see anything, anything at all complex about those mechanics. You don't have to even play the encounter once to understand how to beat these mechanics, so this isn't a "die and repeat" case.

So if the mechanics are not complex to understand or hard to memorize, what is the real difficulty behind them?

Landslide: people have poor reaction times.
Twisters: people are not paying attention (for twisters you don't even need high reaction times, as long as you move before the cast is over you are golden).

And people are still asking for easier content. It baffles my mind.

The point here being that the mechanics (which is the main critique through out this post of biblical proportions) are for the most part not complex and the difficulty lies in people simply not being able to execute them correctly, not understanding them.

(I still think the execution is super easy, but I can understand how this differs from person to person)

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

I have no doubt I would have been able to go at least up to T9, maybe even beat that T9 once before 2.4 comes. But I don't think it's worth my time

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This is just gold. I used to know someone like you. He could solo anything in a game I played before XIV.

He just couldn't be arsed to do it because it would "take too much time". And thus he never did it. Not even once.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

So I just took a look at the fights on youtube, got really annoyed of what I saw, and decided I would not go there until the nerf, because it was not worth banging my head on it.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

I had nothing to gain back then, and now I have nothing to gain from T9 besides the story, which I could eventually watch on youtube if I really wanted to go down that way. Hence why it's "wasting my time", rather than "taking too much time". No matter how hard I try, I can't feel proud to beat a content I've mastered and which became piece of cake (for me, don't make me say anything else) right after. I'll eventually feel relieved for a few days, before being bored and never set feet inside ever again.

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So you're just bad. Got it.

Look, I think one key is issue is gearing up doesn't really effect the fight mechanics. No matter how geared you are, if you eat a landslide its game over. If you eat a twister it's game over. The question is then, where is the gear and echo buff that actually increases player movement speed to help compensate "poor" players with lower reaction time?

I read the OP twice and I really like the post. I have Dyspraxia and I CANNOT memorize rotations, my brain just doesn't let me, so I work on a reaction time basis. I've cleared t5, not yet attempted second coil, I've cleared all the ex-primals so far as well. I wrote this massive post and deleted it because it was a ramble fest.

I like the concept of people being able to have more bodies to it and have a better chance of win. A brand new FC experiencing titan HM should be able to make a 6-12 man group and try it, 4 elite people should be able to try some harder content too, but not be restricted to only 4! The mechanics will probably still wipe a 12 man group as you see people in their first time will die before heart phase hopefully leaving enough dps alive to kill it or allow more people to see what happens after that. It doesn't mean it should be lol 24 people on a little platform super pushing titan into final phase in 4 minutes.

Mechanics are really ridiculous sometimes, look at the Sunken Temple of Qarn, as a WHM I was getting yelled at for not constantly saving people because of the hornets are doing 3k+ dmg and people, aside from WAR, only have about 2k, but if one person dies before hornets are killed its over, I wouldn't have the MP to finish the battle if I Raise them and there won't be enough dps to kill them off, even if i slept 1. I understand avoidable instant wipe mechanics that a few people can save the raid from or each individual person has to do their part, but never should single target death mean that the group is going to wipe. I find it appalling that you can't even try to learn a fight as a new person because if you die once every AOE after will kill you, and then the group won't have enough dps to beat the enrage timer or heals over damage or someone to pick up adds. Look at Titan EX people die in first 2 phases all the time, and the gaols will cause a wipe since there isn't dps and it will kill 1 healer and try solo healing through Tumults as someone who isn't super over geared. Even if you are over geared if 1 or 2 other people of the same role die it will still be a wipe.

Enrage timers were meant so people wouldn't just Zombie run and throw weakened bodies at it until they beat it, it means now that 1 person's death means that you fail because they spent 2 minutes waiting for a safe time to get up and your dps fell too low and now you haven't a chance.

It took me a month of every day sitting for 2 hours and bashing my head into Titan EX, I could live well into final phase on my first tries but i would need 7 others to do their job and live too if one person died we wiped, and not by choice. This has nothing to do with individual skill, join an EX primal fight now and you will see some awesome new people who learn the fight so fast and you will see 2 people who aren't learning as fast and they will die before the hardest phase but that causes a wipe, every time. I did a Garuda ex to help some new people if the other healer would die, sure i can solo heal it, but if 1 tank wasn't 100% on the ball we'd wipe because of spiny mechanic. This is even with 25% echo maybe 2-4 people would live but then the dps checks would mean we would wipe.

The system as it is now means 6/8 people need to be hardcore and one needs to be a tank and one a healer with amazing gear just to help 2 friends.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Look, I think one key is issue is gearing up doesn't really effect the fight mechanics. No matter how geared you are, if you eat a landslide its game over. If you eat a twister it's game over. The question is then, where is the gear and echo buff that actually increases player movement speed to help compensate "poor" players with lower reaction time?

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While gear doesn't directly help versus mechanics, it does indirectly by enabling you to push phases or survive a few things because of the HP increase you natural get. It's not meaningless, just not as immediately influential as some people would like. I think being able to push a phase is enough to consider better gear as 'meaningful'. Skipping means you not only don't have to deal with the next up coming or entire set of mechanics and saves valuable time when there is a hard enrage.

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Originally Posted by Naiser

It's not so much about nerfing content but more about offering a new end game challenge build around testing players' ability to play their jobs well as opposed to dodging one shot kill mechanisms.

It could be about content that need tanks to know how to put up the best hate best damage mitigation while generating high snap aggro.

It could be about content that need healers to clear debuffs fast. Or DPS using their utility skills to disrupt enemy moves or debuff the boss.

Just do away with the irrecoverable one hit kill.

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LOL
You people..
So dodging things that will kill you, while actually performing your job isn't more of a test of your skill than just spamming rotation? mmmkay.

"It could be about content that need tanks to know how to put up the best hate best damage mitigation while generating high snap aggro." - This is in the encounters.
"It could be about content that need healers to clear debuffs fast. " So is this. Actually both of this are mechanics of T7 for example.

This whole thread (maybe not the actual OP, but the majority of what people are writing here),whether you want to admit it or not, could be summed up to one thing:
TLDR; Dodging is too hard, please nerf.
Just straight up say it.

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Originally Posted by Litre

You're playing on hard mode, you deserve the cool stuff first, that's fine, please realize there are players that never play "any" games on hard, they play on easy, they enjoy playing games, and it's challenging enough for them. They want to relax, not watch YouTube videos, practice and get harassed by you hardcore players, who simply don't understand their difficulties, coming from a non-gamer background. And we need these people to support the game/developers so FF can continue to flourish.

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Here we go, i knew this thread would derail into this nonsense "There's not enough easy content QQ".

Here's what players who want to play on easy have:
All 10 LVL 50 dungeons
2 Main scenarios
4 HM primals + Ultima(ok lets say 3 if we assume titan as "medium")
Treasure maps and daily quests
Atma/Novus
CT
Coil T1-T4(don't even try to say it isn't easy, with echo its almost pure tank and spank in all of them)
So let's see we have a total of 20-21 encounters + a variety of other systems

Oh, and as clarification, by easy i mean as long as you have the right gear you can just go in without any previous(or very very little) knowledge.

I'd call EX primals maybe medium difficulty content, not really but let's not get into that.
So, people who want some kind of challenge get 4 bosses, and you're saying that this is too much?...

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

okay you got me, I confess :)

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Instead of cheesy response please answer this point:
"So dodging things that will kill you, while actually performing your job isn't more of a test of your skill than just spamming rotation? mmmkay."

Edit* just found this while reading through the thread

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

I have no doubt I would have been able to go at least up to T9, maybe even beat that T9 once before 2.4 comes. But I don't think it's worth my time

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You're commenting on stuff you've never even attempted, yet discard them as silly easy..
Oh and that "i could do it, i just don't want to" do you realize how much of a cliche you are?

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Please tell me what's difficult in Coil once you have mastered the mechanics. I'd love to change my point of view.

Also, don't give us the "die-and-retry games were difficult". They were not difficult (ie, possible in one go by some random skilled player), they were designed to be impossible for 99.99% of the people and for the arcade.

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It would depend on how you define mastering the mechanics. By mastering the mechanics of a specific fight, by definition you are amazing at that fight, so it should no longer be that difficult. I will say that T5-9 is content difficult enough that defeat is still a possibility even after you have mastered it. However, it's kind of a trick question.

Well I mean even other MMOs like WoW and Rift are far more mechanic heavy than this, while having a much faster GCD, more complex jobs, and more responsibility in some cases. Anyone who has come from raiding in one of those games (or comparative) shouldn't find any of the mechanics so far jarring or especially difficult at all.

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Look, I think one key is issue is gearing up doesn't really effect the fight mechanics. No matter how geared you are, if you eat a landslide its game over. If you eat a twister it's game over. The question is then, where is the gear and echo buff that actually increases player movement speed to help compensate "poor" players with lower reaction time?

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To be fair, you're specifically picking instant kill mechanics. Gearing up/echo buff helps with things such as overall fight duration (lower = easier, less time to mess up, DPS burst is more significant, healer MP pools are less likely to be strained), tanking high damage encounters such as Caduceus (to the point you can ignore its slime mechanic); tank swapping in T2 (the penalty for swapping slowly or even not at all is greatly reduced); T4 is far easier by virtue of the fact that its difficulty always lay in the large amount of simultaneous mobs - a dps/hps output check, basically, which was trivialised by Echo; T5 - Death Sentence requires no/less preparation, Conflags die a lot easier, Divebomb=>Asclepius phase (hardest of the fight) is far easier; Titan HM - Tumult damage and DPS checks trivialised; Garuda EX - tank checks trivialised (in terms of survival anyway); Titan EX - this is one of the few fights which Echo does not benefit a huge amount because it was never a massive dps/hps check. It increases the margin of error significantly however; Ifrit EX - tank checks greatly reduced. Higher DPS can actually cause issues here!

tl;dr: some mechanics remain painful, but the vast majority of each Echo fight is much easier, with some mechanics becoming completely irrelevant/trivialised.

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I read the OP twice and I really like the post. I have Dyspraxia and I CANNOT memorize rotations, my brain just doesn't let me, so I work on a reaction time basis. I've cleared t5, not yet attempted second coil, I've cleared all the ex-primals so far as well. I wrote this massive post and deleted it because it was a ramble fest.

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You don't need to, honestly. As long as you know what a mechanic does and roughly when it is coming, you will be fine in almost all instances.

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Mechanics are really ridiculous sometimes, look at the Sunken Temple of Qarn, as a WHM I was getting yelled at for not constantly saving people because of the hornets are doing 3k+ dmg and people, aside from WAR, only have about 2k, but if one person dies before hornets are killed its over, I wouldn't have the MP to finish the battle if I Raise them and there won't be enough dps to kill them off, even if i slept 1. I understand avoidable instant wipe mechanics that a few people can save the raid from or each individual person has to do their part, but never should single target death mean that the group is going to wipe.

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The hornets are very squishy and you'd have to be wilfully ignoring them to fail the mechanic. What would then be an acceptable cause of death on that first boss? There is no difficulty in it aside from its mechanics. You could boost its damage and remove the mechanics, but that makes the fight far easier - you'd just stand there hitting Cure/Cure2 every GCD for the entire fight and that'd be it. Losing one member in a 4 man group is a 25% loss in number of members - this should be extremely significant, else the question would be raised - how is it possible to wipe?

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Enrage timers were meant so people wouldn't just Zombie run and throw weakened bodies at it until they beat it, it means now that 1 person's death means that you fail because they spent 2 minutes waiting for a safe time to get up and your dps fell too low and now you haven't a chance.

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Enrage timers in MMOs tend to be harsh - far harsher than in XIV. They are intended to provide an output goal and prevent you using too many healers. Their role isn't solely to stop zombie tactics, it's to demand a certain level of competence with your job and with the mechanics of the fight. It's not like XI where they were so laughably high that you'd actually have to go afk and eat a pizza or something to fail them - they are now a required part of the fight to beat.

Agree with a lot of points in this post - it was a good read. Also, I laugh whenever i hear people use the word "skill" to refer to this game. This game is not about "skill" - it's about memorization and repetition , let's be real. The "hardcore" pass content earlier because they have 8 people who can dedicate a set time for a static party - the vast majority of the population doesn't fall into this category. Whenever I was able to beat a turn in coil or a ex-primal , it never felt like I increased in "skill". It simply felt like I had repeated the content enough to finally remember all the mechanics. If I took a random group of 8 people considered "mainstream" with the correct distribution of jobs - told them they would not have to worry about work/school/family/etc. for 2 weeks - and for 2 weeks they would dedicate 10 hours a day to clearing ScoB and nothing else, they would clear it.

Compare this to some other gaming genres that actually require real skill. A few come to mind for me - Fighting, RTS, FPS, Rhythm/Music. What you'll notice in this other gaming genres is that someone who is already skillful at one specific game in the genre can quickly pick up on another game in that same category. People who are pros at Street Fighter can very quickly pick up on another game like MvC or BlazBlue/GG - the skills carry over. People who were pro at Warcraft could quickly pick up on Starcraft - the skills carry over. People who are pros at Counterstrike could quickly pick up on Battlefront - the skills carry over. People who are pros at Beatmania could quicly pick up on Pop-n-music/etc. - the skills carry over. The rules and "mechanics" to these games to these games are actually quite rudimentary - you can very quickly learn how to do all the moves for a character in a fighting game, for example. It doesn't in any way make you "skilled" however.

Another good comparison is sports. Take basketball for example - the rules are pretty simple. However, only people with real skill ever make it to the highest levels of college and pro. While it obviously takes practice, even practice and repetition doesn't guarantee someone has the actual skill to make it to the top levels. Someone could practice basketball daily from a young age - doesn't mean they'll make it to the NBA, you gotta be born with the skills.

Take music as another example - you could have practiced guitar vigorously daily from a young age - doesn't mean you're gonna be the next Clapton either. Some people are born with inherent musical talent/skills.

Now look at FFXIV. So you finally beat Titan-EX ... did you gain any "skills" from doing this that apply to any other game, or even to any other fight in FFXIV itself? No, you just repeated it until you memorized the order of the patterns. So you finally beat Turn 5 - you never die to divebomb/twisters anymore! - good job!... did you gain any "skills" from doing this that apply to any other game, or even to any other fight in FFXIV itself?

Also, how many people (including the so called "hard-core") - used an external app (e.g. Twintania tracker) to beat T5 for the first time? Again - this is "skill" ?

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

You're horribly missing his point here. People enjoy the story. Coil has a story. People should enjoy Coil. Sad thing is, they don't. For various reasons, one of them being they may get instant-killed at every step they attempt.

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As i said earlier in this thread, i think they should indeed make a easier version of coil(and in turn give us a harder version of ct too) for those only interested in lore.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

First, you don't need a perfect rotation to succeed in coil. You need a basic damage output (basic here is adaptable to the fight, of course it isn't spamming 1-2-3-repeat) and you're good.
Second, the actual choregraphy for each fight does let you perform a high enough dps to do anything you'd want to achieve so hmmm, knowing said dance isn't really more a test of skill then spamming combos. It is indeed harder, but only requires more memory, not more skill.
Lastly, since when having a fight "not relying ONLY on mechanics" is a synonym of "having a dummy fight" ? Stop thinking "black or white". Maybe end game content could just stop spamming one shot mechanics every time and just focus on a few of them ?

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1- You probably never did the fights undergeared or with just barely enough gear so you never experienced the difference between barely making the top dps you can and not doing it. This was the reason why, when it was released, some people had more trouble passing the dps checks in T4 than others for example(or in any fight that has dps checks really).

2- LOL so moving away from the boss interrupting your cast or simply putting you out of range or simply busying you with just doing something else doesn't influece dps? mmkay then

3 - Fights don't rely only on mechanics, gear matters and so does individual skill i'm tired of repeating this.

And lastly STOP talking about encounters you haven't even tried ffs.

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Originally Posted by zPanda

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Sigh
Answer me this, why do people who have experience in other MMOs and other games, find mechanics like landslide trivial(from the first few times, not after hours upon hours) more often than those that don't have experience?
Please go ahead and twist logic to evade the definition of skill.
Also, since when is being able to execute a set of actions (be they patterned or not) not a skill?

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Originally Posted by zPanda

So you finally beat Turn 5 - you never die to divebomb/twisters anymore! - good job!... did you gain any "skills" from doing this that apply to any other game, or even to any other fight in FFXIV itself?

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Yes, you've learned how to dodge crap, congrats.
Oh, and if you did it while there was no echo well let's see some examples:
As a healer you might have learned how to time your shield so that it is applied right before a big attack.
As a tank you might've learned how to properly set up a cooldown rotation.
As a dps you might've learned to save your cooldowns for when a burst is really needed.
This is just off the top of my head, sure some might've had those skills before, but then it'd have been easier for them too. :)

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As a healer you might have learned how to time your shield so that it is applied right before a big attack.
As a tank you might've learned how to properly set up a cooldown rotation.
As a dps you might've learned to save your cooldowns for when a burst is really needed.
This is just off the top of my head, sure you might've had those skills before, but you might've learned them too.

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People can and have used macros and apps to assist with all this stuff. MMORPG often rely on mechanics rather than skill which is why it's possible to implement and use these types of "assists". Also you basically prove my point lol. How do you know *when* to those big attacks are coming or when a burst is needed? - it's because you've repeated a fight enough to know the patterns.

It would be really interesting to get one group of 8 "hardcore" players, and another group of 8 "mainstream" players, and when 2.3 is released, have a real-time stream of the 2 parties in Ramuh-EX practicing to defeat it with no external apps or voice-chat. I would bet the amount of time required for each party to defeat it would be close to the same.

There's nothing like "twintania tracker" or ffxiv-app that will help increase your "skill" in those other game genres I mentioned previously that require real skill.

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Originally Posted by zPanda

People can and have used macros and apps to assist with all this stuff. MMORPG often rely on mechanics rather than skill which is why it's possible to implement and use these types of "assists". Also you basically prove my point lol. How do you know *when* to those big attacks are coming or when a burst is needed? - it's because you've repeated a fight enough to know the patterns.

There's nothing like "twintania tracker" or ffxiv-app that will help increase your "skill" in those other game genres I mentioned previously that require real skill.

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*MEGA SIGH*
There's no point, i'm talking to a wall.
The answer is in my previous post.

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Originally Posted by zPanda

It would be really interesting to get one group of 8 "hardcore" players, and another group of 8 "mainstream" players, and when 2.3 is released, have a real-time stream of the 2 parties in Ramuh-EX practicing to defeat it with no external apps or voice-chat. I would bet the amount of time required for each party to defeat it would be close to the same.

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Oh dear... it's worse than i thought, you have no clue..
So you think there's some guides and magic apps from the heavens that the people that do the 1st kills receive?
You do realize the strats this people come up with take a few hours of pulling and dying to develop right?
Is there also no skill in being the first to nail down the winning strat? Ok, go do it then.

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Originally Posted by zPanda

It would be really interesting to get one group of 8 "hardcore" players, and another group of 8 "mainstream" players, and when 2.3 is released, have a real-time stream of the 2 parties in Ramuh-EX practicing to defeat it with no external apps or voice-chat. I would bet the amount of time required for each party to defeat it would be close to the same.

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Going back to an earlier point here - if it was possible to set this up, would you bet your house on the "hardcore" group beating a brand new battle faster than the "mainstream" group? I know I wouldn't lol.

On the other hand, if you set up a fight between one of the top Street Fighter players in the world versus a random decent player, would I bet my house on the top SF player? Yeah, you bet I would.

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Originally Posted by zPanda

Going back to an earlier point here - if it was possible to set this up, would you bet your house on the "hardcore" group beating a brand new battle faster than the "mainstream" group? I know I wouldn't lol.

On the other hand, if you set up a fight between one of the top Street Fighter players in the world versus a random decent player, would I bet my house on the top SF player? Yeah, you bet I would.

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Would i bet on the people that clear the content first, over people who have trouble dodging trivial mechanics? Yes, yes i would.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

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No point arguing semantics, of what skill means, if some people can do it and others can't there's something there, and let me tell you, it's far from being just lag in 90%+ of the cases(lots of times with randoms on a lot of encounters has shown me this)..
Also this is the last answer you'll get from me, you people refuse to concede on anything, you just want your tank and spank fights, it's pointless.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Also, learning how to dodge twister won't help you for, let's say, devour...

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This. I beat T6 far faster then I did T5. So why do I see people still struggling with the early parts of T6? If there is actual "skill" in T5 and earlier content, why doesn't it just carry over for everyone?

no skill involved into this... only to have 7 people with you that know the step of the dance of T5... if you play with a static, you will always pass it and no difficulty into this. the team play into this game is not.... well developped.

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Originally Posted by zPanda

This. I beat T6 far faster then I did T5. So why do I see people still struggling with the early parts of T6? If there is actual "skill" in T5 and earlier content, why doesn't it just carry over for everyone?

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Oh so your anecdotal evidence doesn't carry over to everyone? Brilliant you should publish a paper on that.
Also T6 is the introductory turn in Second coil while t5 is the final turn of the first one.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Would i bet on the people that clear the content first, over people who have trouble dodging trivial mechanics? Yes, yes i would .

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Lol let's be real here. Is "dodging" in this game really about "skill" , or more about repeating the fights enough to basically know when the attacks are coming. Look at some of the previous threads regarding titan-ex for example - people deal with lag by simply memorizing when attacks are coming out and "dodging" ahead of time.

Also, again, T6 was much easier to clear IMO than T5. So why do I see so many people still struggling with the basic parts of that fight like devour? If this game is truly skill-based, shouldn't anyone who's cleared T5 find T6 a cakewalk?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

no skill involved into this... only to have 7 people with you that know the step of the dance of T5... if you play with a static, you will always pass it and no difficulty into this. the team play into this game is not.... well developped.

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Yup - 100% agree. One of the reasons you see so much rage in pugs and PF/DF groups when people step outside of their static parties.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Oh so your anecdotal evidence doesn't carry over to everyone? Brilliant you should publish a paper on that.
Also T6 is the introductory turn in Second coil while t5 is the final turn of the first one.

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Yup thanks for agreeing with me. T6 is the *introductory* turn in SCoB , so it's funny to me how people with the "skills" to beat T5 can struggle so much in T6, and *introductory* turn.

Let me state that I'm not hardcore and do not have a static party - I've cleared all primal-ex and T6 so far so I'm very far from being "top-level / elite" or anything. There are people in my FC that have not cleared Garuda-EX yet. Do I think I'm more "skilled" than those players? - No, not at all. I just feel like I've spent more time in the game than they have. This is my point - whenever I've cleared content like titan-ex or t5 for example, it never feels like I gained "skill" - it simply feels like I just learned "the script" lol. I have absolutely no idea how long it will take me to beat Ramuh-EX, because I know it'll probably come down to having to learn another "script". I don't see how any "skill" I currently have will carry over into a new battle.

I will concede however that if you consider memorization a "skill" - then OK, that "skill" helps in FFXIV lol.

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Originally Posted by zPanda

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People who beat T5 before 2.2, had very little difficulty, in general, in beating T6 in comparison to the time it took them to beat T5, so your point isn't even true.
This is also my last reply to you, since you also just repeat your points over and over regardless of what is said, but if you think MMO's(you clearly omited the genre in your "genre that require skill" list) are so dumb easy and uninteresting what are you doing here?

Also LOL on your music example. Not even going to comment on that one.