Crystalline Conflict Tier List (with deep maths!)

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

Everything you said about MNK has already been considered and controlled for. It's there in plain writing in the rubric breakdown. The damage numbers are the damage numbers, if I break the rules to give MNK a higher grade than it actually scored then there's no point in this exercise.

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I don't disagree with the numbers, but the frequency of said numbers in a 5 minute match. Other jobs that can pull a bigger number on a STB just do not have the same frequency as MNK (not even considering its ease of use or newbie friendly nature).

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

I don't doubt that NIN and BRD have great synergy, but "BRD has really great burst" is kind of a hard sell when you spent the whole paragraph talking about how much it enables NIN. "BRD is nice to its friends" is what I got out of that, and I don't think anyone ever disagreed on that point. My point was never that BRD can't set up or help secure kills. The point was that BRD never has the option of solo killing anyone, and that's why it's rated relatively low in single-target burst.

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Well yeah, BRD is a support job after all, it helps its friends.
But the thing about BRD bursts is that it comes out quick and can be lined up with its silence, so as long as 1 or even 2 out of your other 4 teammates follow it up, you have a high chance of securing KOs with the silence+burst. CC is a team mode after all, not dueling, solo KO potential is not super important in CC imo, solo KO potential is just a bonus.

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

If the monk combo is wrong I will gladly take your input in correcting it. Not sure how it's a freely available option to "just don't get hit kekw", between Six-sided Star and Enlightenment/Meteodrive, but maybe you know something I don't. Remember that we're mathing for
Speaking of monks and LB charging, we were doing some additional testing and I'm not sure if it's a duel-specific thing, but MNK LB seems to be bugged, wanted to pull your ear on that one real quick. Every Meteodrive that we used did 3 ticks of 4k damage during the animation, and then a last hit of 12k--regardless of whether the Meteodrive was used against Guard or not. The 3 ticks of 4k also were not reflected at all in the battle log in either situation. I'm pretty sure that it's supposed to only award a bonus 12k damage if you hit an ungarded target, so unless it's counting its own de-Guarding, I don't think it's behaving as intended. If that IS the intended interaction, it's pretty weird that a) it doesn't show up in battle log, and b) the tooltip doesn't just say "strips guard and deals 24k damage".

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That's a translation error in the tooltip iirc, it does the same damage whether they're in guard or not.

I had a bunch of success with Bard Players and especially trying it myself, Bard is very underrated.

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

If the monk combo is wrong I will gladly take your input in correcting it. Not sure how it's a freely available option to "just don't get hit kekw", between Six-sided Star and Enlightenment/Meteodrive, but maybe you know something I don't. Remember that we're mathing for theoretical maximums sans counterplay, because that's what we can control for and calculate.

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I meant to reply to this as well in my last post, but as I said there is multiple different ways to LB combo as MNK, but I'll give the proper order to one of them using the skills you had for it in the doc.

Rising Pheonix > Enlightenment > Six-Sided Star > Meteodrive > Rising Phoenix > Phantom Rush
Assuming your first Rising Phoenix hits them, it's:
3k+12k+4k+24k+8k+3k+18k = 72k
Sometimes the ending has ping issues though and is better off not being Rising Phoenix'd for the 18k Phantom Rush, so if you don't do that in favor of just raw Phantom Rushing, while also not including the damage of the first Rising Phoenix, it still does 60k damage.
That's just one of the LB combo variations, and usually in my experience you don't have to use it much when your team can follow up to secure the KO; usually I've just done a simple: Quick chat LB ping > Mark Target on point where your team is > raw LB > Rising Phoenix > Six-Sided Star > Phantom Rush = 49k. If your team somehow cannot help you secure this on point after pinging LB and marking target, then your team probably doesn't belong in PvP.

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Originally Posted by MNKabuser

Well yeah, BRD is a support job after all, it helps its friends.
But the thing about BRD bursts is that it comes out quick and can be lined up with its silence, so as long as 1 or even 2 out of your other 4 teammates follow it up, you have a high chance of securing KOs with the silence+burst. CC is a team mode after all, not dueling, solo KO potential is not super important in CC imo, solo KO potential is just a bonus.

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CC is a team mode, but REQUIRING the intervention of teammates weighs heavily against the job imo. I know how good its kill secure potential can be, I have almost 100% kill participation almost every match. And to circle back to the root of all this, people seem to be upset that BRD is rated so low because the rubric omits sustained DPS, partywide buffs, and burst availability/flexibility--but let's just run the thought experiment. Even if I WERE to create new categories and award BRD all those points, if I were to do the same for every other job, where would BRD end up on the relative scale in the final analysis? Not much higher than it currently is, if at all. At the very very best it'd squeak into the bottom of B tier.

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Originally Posted by MNKabuser

That's a translation error in the tooltip iirc, it does the same damage whether they're in guard or not.

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Ah I see, very weird that it doesn't show up in the battle log at all though. I blame spaghetti code.

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Originally Posted by MNKabuser

Rising Pheonix > Enlightenment > Six-Sided Star > Meteodrive > Rising Phoenix > Phantom Rush
Assuming your first Rising Phoenix hits them, it's:
3k+12k+4k+24k+8k+3k+18k = 72k

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72k is the number we got though? Unless the order is the only thing you had an issue with. You'd also have to put a Thunderclap between Enlightenment and Six-sided, right? I've been Enlightenment->Meteodrived a LOT too, so I wouldn't say it's entirely incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I had a bunch of success with Bard Players and especially trying it myself, Bard is very underrated.

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Yeah apparently it's such a broken job that you can know nothing about the game, do all your combos wrong, and still get carried into Top 30. Idk why everyone just doesn't do that tbh, yall are missing out on free real estate

aight now that ive stopped facepalming i have a genuine question.

what is it with 6.1 andys and gaining this ego and thinking they know everything there is to know about pvp to the point you start making tier lists and (not saying you do this) unironically say stuff like "skill issue" its cool you gettin dubs but it seems it just gets to peoples heads really fast.

and again tier lists in 5 button pvp with accessibility in mind. idk why people jerk off to em so much.

you win a few cc matches and this happens. has to be a upgraded level of brainrot not even feast players were like this

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Originally Posted by IllidanFang

aight now that ive stopped facepalming i have a genuine question.

what is it with 6.1 andys and gaining this ego and thinking they know everything there is to know about pvp to the point you start making tier lists and (not saying you do this) unironically say stuff like "skill issue" its cool you gettin dubs but it seems it just gets to peoples heads really fast.

and again tier lists in 5 button pvp with accessibility in mind. idk why people jerk off to em so much.

you win a few cc matches and this happens. has to be a upgraded level of brainrot not even feast players were like this

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There will always be people who seek depth of understanding. Super Smash Bros was never meant to be a deeply analyzed or competitive game--it was meant to be a family-friendly 2 button fighter. I guess you don't play any other games? Because people like me aren't exactly the exception to the norm. If you don't care to look deeply into the guts of the game, then cool. But some of us do, and it's almost just as much fun for us to experiment and dig and theorycraft as it is for us to actually play.

Ultimately, I think for me personally it comes from a desire to understand things better so that I can better make recommendations for the overall health of the game--not that the devs are at all likely to listen, but I like to think that in some small measure, my efforts might result in the betterment of the game for everyone. At the very least, I'll have access to knowledge that most people never bothered to dig for, and I can therefore bring attention and educational awareness where there was none before. SE's documentation and methods for explaining their game are notoriously awful, so it falls to us to help (newer) players figure out what they're getting into.

This tier list was a math experiment from the start, meant to be interesting and to spark discussion. Anyone who took it as "this is the definitive be-all-end-all and if you disagree you're wrong" was probably just projecting their own ego LOL. Hope that answers your question

It was a question? I guess it was all hidden beneath the edge.

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Originally Posted by IllidanFang

aight now that ive stopped facepalming i have a genuine question.

what is it with 6.1 andys and gaining this ego and thinking they know everything there is to know about pvp to the point you start making tier lists and (not saying you do this) unironically say stuff like "skill issue" its cool you gettin dubs but it seems it just gets to peoples heads really fast.

and again tier lists in 5 button pvp with accessibility in mind. idk why people jerk off to em so much.

you win a few cc matches and this happens. has to be a upgraded level of brainrot not even feast players were like this

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Why insult the math or people who engage in doing it when you can't even count the avarage amount of buttons available per job in pvp? Ego is never uninvolved, maybe while asleep... Yours is screaming at you to show how much smarter you are doing 0 maths!