Because savage/ultimate raiding is what they design and balance the game around, and if a button is useless or near-useless in those contexts it tends to get changed or removed. I bet we're going to see Shield Bash removed, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
PLD is currently underperforming on both sustain and DPS fronts in meaningful content, and it's missing tools that other tanks have. Clemency is the natural solution to both of those problems. The only difference in how they choose to fix it. Moving Sheltron to be an independent skill and moving Clemency to gauge, along with making it oGCD, makes the most sense to me. You use Intervention if your buddy is going to be taking a substantial amount of damage, or if they might die without the extra mitigation. Otherwise you use Clemency.
You not liking this *doesn't matter.* It's how things are going to be. As I've said before, if you actually care about class fantasy or diversity or uniqueness, you are playing the wrong game and you should play something else if those things genuinely matter to you. Yoshida was very clear on them "moving forward with 5.0 design."
Why is everyone anxious about a PLD Rework?
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12-02-2022, 02:14 AMGserpent
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12-02-2022, 04:05 AMMithronThis is the most logical, as no other tank has to rely on auto attack uptime to keep their mitigation readily available. It's not so much a "unique feature" as it is an "active hindrance" that makes PLD even worse than the other tanks. Oblation has two charges with 60s cooldown, Nascent is just a cooldown, Heart of Corundrum is just a cooldown. None of them suffer from downtime, and given Intervention's cooldown, it's not really viable to drop two of them on two targets very quickly in any realistic mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gserpent
These are not the "unique features" I want from PLD. -
12-02-2022, 04:46 AMThatRobGuyQuote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
This is the issue with clemency- it isn't free. Paladin is balanced around having multiple abilities like clemency, passage, and cover that are all highly situational. The end result is that any time these abilities aren't useful (ie most of the time) the paladin has objectively weaker defenses and utility than the other tanks. People are just trying to brainstorm ways to make the existing abilities useful in more situations.
Making shelltron a standard cooldown and making clemency an oGCD that uses gauge would accomplish that. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be useful in more situations and help Paladin with the survivability and utility it currently lacks. -
12-02-2022, 10:08 AMRithy255"Because savage/ultimate raiding is what they design and balance"Quote:
Originally Posted by Gserpent
I guess they should remove Peloton, because you don't use it in raids!!!
No the game isn't only about savage (a small margin of people play it, but I agree that savage should be balanced), abilities that can fit outside of savage but still be useful should have their place, even if we wanna argue that we should solely balance around savage, that's a poor argument and a big reason why dark knight doesn't feel good in big pulls and warrior gets to be sleep mode (both which i disagree with). We cannot just balance only around savage, ignoring solo play which where clemency shines doesn't really help.
Beyond that clemency does actually have it's uses in progression, the mentality behind "well it's only prog..." makes no sense Progression is the Most Important balance to get right in the game way more important then reclears.
Clemency isn't a Issue again, if you want a OCGD heal I agree, but theirs other ways to give PLD a ocgd heal without ruining it's solo survivability and ways to save a run.
Also when I mean "Clemency is free" I mean that theirs no cost for having it on your hotbar other then existing, Sure I can agree that cover/passage aren't free but that's because I have a feeling they actually effect the tank defensively with lacking some personals. While Clemency could still exist on PLD without having a "cost" for existing -
12-02-2022, 11:40 AMGserpentDude... you do realize that PLD's solo survivability would go *up* with this Clemency change... right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
The rest of the stuff you wrote is irrelevant. Square-Enix does not particularly care about that type of content nor do they design the game around it. As I said earlier - if those things really matter to you, I would advise you to find another game to play because XIV is not that game you want and it will continue to not be that game you want. You stamping your feet and being mad about the literal worst tank in the game getting a rework to be less terrible suggests that you don't really understand the game very well. Or that you understand it and hate the way it's going, in which case... refer to my earlier comment.
DRK is just fine in big pulls. TBN scales with gear, Oblation is crazy good, etc. Seriously, where are you getting your ideas from? They don't really pan out in reality. -
12-02-2022, 12:43 PMRithy255
(respond to above)
It would also go up if I don't know? like I've said a million times you just add a OCD heal to paladins kit. Is that so hard to understand that you don't have to remove clemency for that? Clemency isn't and shouldn't be considered a "taxed defensive" I don't know how that's hard to understand.
We're not talking about if SE does or doesn't design around only raids, we're talking about that is it a good idea? to only have abilities designed around raids? my awnser is no, it's perfectly fine to have a ability that works more better for other content as long as it doesn't hurt raiding content, again clemency doesn't actively take anything away from PLD, adding onto PLD's kit makes more sense instead of taking away, we have plenty of ways to cut down on "bloat" without removing clemency.
"Just find another game" no I like ff14 I want it to be even better so yes I do have opinions that might not be to everyone's liking, I don't think the games perfect I have problems with plenty of other games despite enjoying them, I can want changes or argue against changing certain abilities such as clemency because it doesn't fall under raid design and still enjoy the game. Just do not try this tactic of "go to another game lol" no I like ff14.
I'm also not mad that the Paladin is getting reworked it's how it's being reworked, people can again disagree and show disappointment in the direction of the game and still like the game, I have said before that I think PLD needs better defensives and adjustments to its rotation without ruining current pld, I mainly disagree with a total rework and making it like every other tank.
"DRK Is just fine in big pulls"
Depends on dungeon, going through The first EW dungeon as a DRK isn't fun and the final msq one isn't fun either. Drk certainly isn't near any other tank defensively In big pulls, TBN isn't good because it pops very soon it may "scale with gear" but isn't that every single mitigation? every other mitigation is going to be better with better gear... Oblation isn't "crazy good" don't get me wrong its decent in raiding content, but a 10% mitigation in a big pull isn't "crazy good" when you lack sustain.
Just comparing it to any other tank in big pulls it's easily the weakest defensively by a wide margin. While warrior just doesn't do any work and makes healers feel irrelevant, not like this argument means anything to current clemency, but it is certainly night and day when you compare war/drk in big pulls, despite that drks decently balanced for raids and good defensively, I'd just like them to actually balance out jobs in pulls a bit and give healers something to do.
"where do I get my ideas from?" My Ideas would actually make both people happy, the ones who liked old clemency but also wants a way to OCGD heal while yours would actually annoy a lot of people who liked old clemency for how it is. -
12-02-2022, 03:12 PMGserpent
Adding an oGCD when we have a GCD action that would fulfill that purpose is absurd. Just fix the broken ability, don't add a new button that will ensure the broken ability is used even less than it already does. What you're asking for is meaningless button bloat and buttons that will be taken off of hotbars and forgotten about, exactly like Cure 1, Shield Bash, Cover, etc.
You can have whatever implausible fantasy you'd like, I'm just saying that if you actually think they're going to add "Clemency but it's actually usable!" instead of just fixing Clemency to be actually useful, you're full of it. And like I said - making Clemency an oGCD while taking Sheltron off of the oath gauge LITERALLY IMPROVES PLD'S ABILITY TO SOLO OLD CONTENT ACROSS THE BOARD. It is *literally* giving you more of what you want, and you're still mad because you want to be able to cast Clemency one or two extra times in exchange for obliterating your DPS?
Come on, dude. -
12-02-2022, 03:47 PMRithy255
(Reply to above)
No it wouldn't Healers have ocgd and gcd heals that give the same purpose, It's never been "absurd", you don't get how having a consistent source of healing can be useful for solo content Especially going to be very useful in the most recent things such as Deep dungeons up and coming, clemency can be good in the variant dungeons (if you dont want to take a heal, lets say you take a raise and a dot), it can be useful when synching down to to do solo content, It can be useful in down time, Prog or emergencies to have that consistent heal, It's something you do not understand that clemency doesn't need to be a all purpose use ability.
I'm full of what? liking a ability that actually is unique and interesting, actually giving you a gcd choice (which yes in a lot of situations like hardcore raiding you don't really use often), again I don't get why it's so hard for you to understand that clemency can be a ability that doesn't need to effect optimal situations, Do you raise in Optimal situations? no It's a backup tool, Even Healers don't want to optimally GCD heal and a lot of them have so much OGCD healing combined but it's still nice to have a few gcd heals at a time (I agree cure 1 should just upgrade to cure 2 though as both have the same functionality)
Also, It depends what sort of old content and how often PLD's going to have access to a "OCD clemency" How much oath would clemency even cost and things like that, would determine how well it could replace it entirely in solo content, funny how you think it's a broken ability that's never useful though in it's current form it's not broken nor does it need to be "fixed" it's not a major issue with PLD, as I believe it shouldn't and doesn't effect any of PLD's current defensives and also yes plays apart of PLD's identity, Sorry for liking a ability (which others would agree with me) that generally fits PLD but doesn't need to be useful in every situation.
If you're afraid of clemency existing for space reasons, theirs so many changes I could list off that wouldn't even change pld but allow more space without removing it... If its so useless just remove it from your hotbar I guess? situation solves it self really, clemency shouldn't need to cost anything in terms of defensives
If you're going to do personal attacks and call me mad all the time I'm not going to reply again, I really don't appreciate it... I'm all for hearing out your opinions but I don't really want It to devolve into you just calling me mad and dismissing why I like the ability and think it's actually neat, not everyone's going to share the same opinion as you, I actually agree with a lot of your sentiment on how PLD does lack a OCD option the issue we have is changing clemency to fit that or just adding that without removing clemency, I really wouldn't understand why you'd be upset with my Idea but I guess I'm open to hear you out as long as you're actually trying to be respectful. -
12-02-2022, 05:02 PMAnotherPersonCan you explain how having less casts of Clemency improves PLD's overall survival when they need more healing via raw potency? Oath Gauge only charges at 5 per auto attack, as opposed to MP gauge (which recharges naturally in addition to recharging on atonement, Expiacion, Riot Blade, Blade of Faith, Blade of Truth, and Blade of Valor. How are you planning on balancing the Oath gauge with Clemency when PLD has so much lossless healing? As it stands, 40-50 Oath gauge means PLD has less casts and flexibility, whereas 20-30 Oath Gauge would mean PLD is broken (up to 5000 to 7500 potency worth of healing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gserpent
oGCD just means it doesn't conflict with your GCD actions. However, having a reduced number of casts reduces the overall amount of healing. If your argument is changing Clemency to oGCD makes PLD have more survival, that's completely wrong because less overall potency =/= more survival. All it means is that Clemency can be used without DPS loss. -
12-02-2022, 05:09 PMGserpentIf Sheltron doesn't cost gauge, it effectively means you get two Clemency casts per gauge on top of a Sheltron cast. That's better than the current standard of two Sheltrons and no Clemency casts.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson