Is Pyromancer getting a perm ban for having Dalamud?

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Originally Posted by KyraAu

Curious how you think people are supposed to not talk about it when certain streamers are openly saying "I am going to stream this and talk about this anyway", such as the reason for this thread. Pyro quite literally said "I refuse to stop using (insert mod launcher name)" and then raging at people over an hour over multiple things, one of which was the console thing people are seeing because that's the only footage that's been revealed since he deleted his vod. This wasn't brought on him, some of these people are actively taking a stance about this.

Not talking about the very public actions taking place doesn't do anything really

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Perhaps. But Pyromancer's conduct is more of a Pyromancer issue than a 'mods in general' issue. He's holding an opinion and defending it rather venomously - that's separate than the topic itself - though it is indicative of the overall mood to draw distinctions between mods that enhance an individual's experience and mods that give a factual advantage to progression content.

Both groups defend that some of these features should be in the game to begin with, and it looks like Yoshida was forced to acknowledge that potential for the first time in his last post. However I'm of mixed feelings as to what should be implemented and what should be flatly enforced away from streamers.

Pyromancer's conduct was terrible, but I don't wholly disagree with the arguments. Cosmetics are benign. My only issue is that they're not in the game in the first place, and the risk that people put on themselves to enhance their experience when implementation of these features would likely not be complex at all. Especially if a layman can implement them.

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Originally Posted by Lunaru_F

Finally, someone says the real reason why people would wanna target Pyro.
The guy fell off his rocker and started attacking and mass banning his chat for neither agreeing with him nor liking his aggressive hostility.
I feel people are more motivated to get him banned for his behavior... the public use of mods just help make it happen.

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If anything that should get him suspended on twitch more than anything else, berating people in his chat. Not just calling people out but curse word after curse and that's in moderation territory. i know he says he has ADHD and poking the bear is just something you have to control as a streamer.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Perhaps. But Pyromancer's conduct is more of a Pyromancer issue than a 'mods in general' issue. He's holding an opinion and defending it rather venomously - that's separate than the topic itself - though it is indicative of the overall mood to draw distinctions between mods that enhance an individual's experience and mods that give a factual advantage to progression content.

Both groups defend that some of these features should be in the game to begin with, and it looks like Yoshida was forced to acknowledge that potential for the first time in his last post. However I'm of mixed feelings as to what should be implemented and what should be flatly enforced away from streamers.

Pyromancer's conduct was terrible, but I don't wholly disagree with the arguments. Cosmetics are benign. My only issue is that they're not in the game in the first place, and the risk that people put on themselves to enhance their experience when implementation of these features would likely not be complex at all. Especially if a layman can implement them.

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The issue with "cosmetics are benign" is it's literally a personal user discretion to what extent you are taking it beyond cosmetics. It's literally a few clicks to implement things that I'm sure you would agree are bad when you're already using the platform that enables you to do so. It's not really a gray area honestly, openly using the launchers that enable that and several modifications especially with the context of "this is technically okay" is just impossible for it to be the actual reasonable middle ground, because it changes nothing about the situation

You realize he had to remove a bunch of things recently because of this, he only has cosmetics now, but he had several other things before yesterday, that he openly said he removed YESTERDAY. He used to have markers before they changed that, he also up until yesterday had party debuff countdowns. He was very recently using more than just cosmetic, and now pretending he's taking a hard stance on only cosmetics. It's a bad faith argument from a bad place and regardless of how much good there is with QOL stuff being implemented, this is not something that should be supported or acted like is "simply their opinion". None of this is new.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I'm in pretty much the same boat tbh. He's just not fun to watch when it takes him 2 hours of ranting to start every stream, especially the last one where he flat out said he hates console players.
None of this however justifies anyone in reporting him for using harmless mods.

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He said he hates us? Us as I play on PS5. Fuck. D: Why did he say that? I need context.

Lets bann everyone who uses Discord and stuff like that, its clearly a third party tool that makes things easier and is surly against ToS. :p

Sometimes i ask myself if people at these forum don't have any other issues and have such a boring life that they are upholding the ToS so much. As long it dosnt affect your game experience people should take a step back and cool down.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

There is no end to the potential harmless, cosmetic UI mods that other people can create for this game, and what SE themselves will have the time and resources to implement will not ever scratch the surface of what is out there.
While some of it could or even should be in the base game, they will never get all of it in there.
So using 'what is available as a mod' as justification for what 'should be in the base game' is never going to be a valid avenue. If it stands on it's own merits then it's worth pushing for, like chat bubbles, but at the same time, if it doesn't mesh with the games design and what the creators want for the game, it's not going to happen.

There's also the entirely valid argument that the creators do not want to imitate WoW to much, and chat bubbles could fall into that.
I've seen a lot of proposed UI changes over the last few days, and frankly, 90% of them are hideous recreations of WoW mods, which are a total mess.

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No argument against the multitude of horrendous WoW-replicant UI mods out there that I can agree are horribly garish.

But I do think we're now in an appropriate phase in the game that SE spends some time and money investigating these popular mods, not just the UI ones for progression content, but the cosmetic ones as well, and try to implement a version of the more popular ones.

This isn't a new issue for sure, but I do think we're at a saturation point where it's time to reflect on the stance and make some actionable progression towards improving on it and the game as a whole. I know we're going to lose people over this issue and I'm at peace with that - but it should be a clear indication to the Developers that some items that don't exist on the priority list need to, and the ordering of them is worth shifting around a bit. The same UI team that took the time to give us the Job Gauges might need to be re-sorted so more can work on current-issue UI enhancements. And if that's not feasible alone, hire more staff, and then re-sort so you have some veterans leading the new team.

Yoshida did state that the walletbook has been opened a bit since the title is now the most profitable SE has. And given that the company wants to take some farily questionable and risky business endevors, it'd be a smart thing that they go the extra mile to secure the future of game that's keeping them afloat.

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

He said he hates us? Us as I play on PS5. Fuck. D: Why did he say that? I need context.

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No one talking about it seems to have actually been in the stream with all the context, so here


long conversation about mods for 30 minutes takes place

One comment references how it's unfair for console players even they gave "QoL addons" the ok for PC because console couldn't use them

Pyro asks if many people even use consoles, changing the context of his question multiple times to things like "well are there even full statics that are all console players", ignoring literally dozens and dozens of comments commenting how even in JP the majority of the playerbase plays on console (i don't know if this is true personally, but it was being said by a lot of people and he didn't respond to that once, just kept asking)

He then hard turns it into a discussion about how well since PC's can get more frames than consoles, they're already at an advantage. As if that somehow means nothing else should be acted upon that would give a disadvantage to console, because there's "already an FPS advantage"

Then, no matter what was said, he got upset and was raging at people, accusing this as "great community btw, right chat?" and shitting on pretty much everyone. There were obviously and of course several trolls and baiters, but the majority of people were trying to discuss the same shit he was saying. But when he's in that state, it doesn't matter what you say. If he reads your chat and it doesn't rub him the right way right then, you're banned and/or called out for being an idiot etc




And this wasn't even the most ragey part of the stream.

Banning someone temporarily generally is good for business on twitch and media sites, so in general banning a streamer for a couple of days is a way to ensure that the rule on third party tools is enforceable by SE while doing as little damage as possible. Truth is SE doesn't want to ban people for using mods, especially the majority of mods that don't really do anything that impact the game or harm other players experiences. What they are against are tools that actively encourage behavior that can cause social problems in the game. Stuff like ACT has to be restricted and or disallowed because actively allowing that system fully was one of the reasons WoW ended up going the way it did. Adult mods are damaging to SE as a company, let alone lewd adventure plates and such, so that makes 100% sense for them to restrict and/or ban players who use those types of mods and publicly share images.

But would SE perma-ban someone for using a mod that changes the font on the screen or improves legibility or adds UI features that improve the flexibility and positioning of existing abilities and cooldowns? They might ban someone for a few days but it seems unlikely they'd want to ban someone for such a minor thing. Not unless they repeatedly advertise the UI modifications or are trying to be an activist.

He was basically trying to imply that its nearly impossible to play the game at high end without plugins or on console, and insisting that practically nobody does Ultimate on console which is just silly. And then he continues banning people who say otherwise.

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Originally Posted by KyraAu

The issue with "cosmetics are benign" is it's literally a personal user discretion to what extent you are taking it beyond cosmetics. It's literally a few clicks to implement things that I'm sure you would agree are bad when you're already using the platform that enables you to do so. It's not really a gray area honestly, openly using the launchers that enable that and several modifications especially with the context of "this is technically okay" is just impossible for it to be the actual reasonable middle ground, because it changes nothing about the situation

You realize he had to remove a bunch of things recently because of this, he only has cosmetics now, but he had several other things before yesterday, that he openly said he removed YESTERDAY. He used to have markers before they changed that, he also up until yesterday had party debuff countdowns. He was very recently using more than just cosmetic, and now pretending he's taking a hard stance on only cosmetics. It's a bad faith argument from a bad place and regardless of how much good there is with QOL stuff being implemented, this is not something that should be supported or acted like is "simply their opinion". None of this is new.

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Then that's a line he should be judged on. You won't get an argument from me there. But again, I take his conduct, and his stances, as separate issues. I'd advice as such to anyone here to follow suit.

If he's been forced to change his stance on what he felt was strictly quality of life - which was a lot of what you just listed off. So much the better. You might call it a bad faith argument - that will depend on what goes back on the mod list once this whole fiasco cools down. But I don't subscribe to the 'slippery slope' argument because the first step itself is the violation. If you're a streamer, you're at risk no matter what you pick on a mod list. It's the degree of that risk depends on the degree of the mods. Pyromancer's behavior exacerbates the issue, but it isn't the issue. He's just more likely to get targeted and reported because he's been toxic about it. Let's see what happens once he's had time to think and reflect.

But that standard becomes more gray when a private player who's not broadcasting mods get a better experience. That's where all this gets dirty and muddy for me, and I don't like where we're at between the modded and unmodded experience is now. I think SE needs more focus on improving their moment to moment quality of life when it comes to the UI to ease that discrepancy. Ultimately that's the best approach.

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Originally Posted by Raim

He was basically trying to imply that its nearly impossible to play the game at high end without plugins or on console, and insisting that practically nobody does Ultimate on console which is just silly. And then he continues banning people who say otherwise.

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That's just him falling into a tantrum, and being factually incorrect on that matter as a result. Consoles are part of the testing regiment when the dev team is forced to clear the content themselves before it's released. He's not been anywhere really in the endgame scene and seen the differences on how FFXIV does its endgame design and testing, compared to what he's previously used to.