Healing Spells You Do Not Mind Being Removed in PvE

I don’t really agree with Cure and Medica becoming lilies when you have some. Mostly because I like the instant cast for the lilies and save them for movement sometimes, so there are times when we’re stacked up I’d rather use the casting spells and save the lilies for when we need to move.

I do think turning medica into cure 3 with some modifications and cure 1 into cure 2 would be fine. I also really wish they’d just call the, Cure, Cura, Curaga, and Curaja.

Divine Bension and Aquaveil could be combined and on charges still. I also really want more water or elemental spells again please.

Sage seems fine with the number it has, if they just increased the effects of Pepsis and Soteria maybe.

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Originally Posted by sergel02

I don’t really agree with Cure and Medica becoming lilies when you have some. Mostly because I like the instant cast for the lilies and save them for movement sometimes, so there are times when we’re stacked up I’d rather use the casting spells and save the lilies for when we need to move.

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On the other hand though, the idea of saving Lilies purely for mobility falls apart when you remember that Cure II and Medica are a DPS loss, while charging Afflatus Misery is at least DPS neutral, setting them to a higher priority at all times. Add that onto WHM's MP economy being balanced around its use of free heals, and the DPS gain of avoiding your GCD heals anyway, and there's really no reason to ever prioritize Cure II when you have Afflatus Solace available. Especially when you still have Dia and Regen for movement phases anyway.

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Originally Posted by sergel02

I do think turning medica into cure 3 with some modifications and cure 1 into cure 2 would be fine. I also really wish they’d just call the, Cure, Cura, Curaga, and Curaja.

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That's their naming convention in Japan, yes, but it does create create some confusion with things like the inconsistency of Tier 4 spell names (-ja and -za are interchangeable, with -gun and -sa also used on occasion) or the possibility of creating a Tier 5 spell (something they ran into with BLM for this expansion before settling on Hi-Fire/Blizzard 2).

But also, upgrading Cure 1 into Cure 2 does pose some slight difficulties, since Cure 1 is more MP efficient and has a faster cast time than Cure 2, making it a better choice for weaving. It's niche of course, yes, but I think going by that convention that it would make more sense to have Cure 1 simply upgrade into an instant cast, or even fuse with Regen as they have the same MP cost; then you can simultaneously address the above issue of needing a healing skill for movement (something SCH doesn't even have, mind you).

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

As a former WHM main, Cure I needs a trait that upgrades to Cure II. (etc...for space)

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I feel like having Cure 1 upgrade to Cure 2 would work provided the MP cost doesn't go up (e.g. Cure 2 changed to Cure 1's MP cost), which would also cement WHM as a more MP efficient healer than AST in cases that force it, which would be a nice niche in a way. So I'd be fine with that.

I don't like the idea of having abilities change when you have a Lily. WHM players doing content sometimes save Lilies for movement. Been doing DR Savage some lately, and while I tend not to use cast time heals much, I DO tend to save Lilies for movement, even if it means using a Medica 2 or something otherwise, since some of the fights require quite a bit of moving and if you need heals then, it's better to be able to stock those up (not overcapping, of course). Likewise, I don't want to replace Holy with Misery since I MIGHT in some cases stock up a Misery to use under buffs, and you can't do that if you're forced to burn it. Though I do agree Afflatus Solace should come at a FAR earlier level than it does. I'm not sure on merging Benison with Aquaveil...that one I'm more "I could see that" with. Problem is Benison is available 2x per minute and Aquaveil is not (60 sec). I like having that 30 sec Benison availability, but would Aqua-Benison on a 30 sec CD be too powerful? I also agree Freecure should be reworked in some way. Maybe a chance to proc a Blood Lily or something, so if you HAVE to cast Cures, you're somewhat refunded for the GCDs used on them. I dunno. I also wish Regen was either oGCD or generated a Blood Lily stack on use. I love HoT healing in games, and am miffed that using them in FFXIV is considered bad play because of the GCD "damage loss" argument. Plenary Indulgence could also use some love. At this point, I think a Pro-shell for the duration (10 sec of mitigation) would be good. Make the button have a real use outside of major multi-hit attacks while also making it stronger in that use-case.

I do agree with button bloat being a problem. My personal belief is that Jobs shouldn't generally have more than 30 buttons or so. For controller players, 29 is enough to have two bars to toggle between with Sprint, LB, and Potion (mount in the field) all there at your fingertips, and it's hard to argue that classes in games SHOULD routinely have MORE THAN 30 buttons; 30 is a lot. But there are some buttons that have good reason for existing and being what they are.

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As for SGE, I can think of a few, but it's already kind of low on buttons/in a good place. The issue is more some of its buttons are......only marginally useful. PARTICULARLY Pepsis. Yes yes, I know the arguments and how you can scrape a mostly consumed shield into a heal, but it's a really niche thing. I'd LOVE there to be a short duration ability that makes Kardia AOE/party healing. Party Synastry but weaker, basically.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

On the other hand though, the idea of saving Lilies purely for mobility falls apart when you remember that Cure II and Medica are a DPS loss, while charging Afflatus Misery is at least DPS neutral, setting them to a higher priority at all times.

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Not really, no. Firstly, because that's ONLY looking at it from a damage perspective. Keep in mind if your healing is insufficient and your party is dying, that's FAR more of a DPS loss for the raid team than you missing out on a Glare. If casting a Medica 2 before movement and a Rapture doing movement is the difference between someone dying and not, that's a DPS gain over casting a Glare before movement and a Rapture doing movement OR WORSE casting a Rapture before movement and then having to move WITHOUT CASTING ANYTHING because you don't have Swiftcast up for Glare and Dia doesn't need refreshing.

And this is also the rub of why you might save a Lily for movement, as well, since ABC (Always Be Casting) applies AND INCLUDES heals. A Cast heal that means not having to cast a heal later can be useful, and for large movement where you can't cast Glare anyway and overwriting Dia would be a DPS loss, it makes more sense to have Lilies for that, even if they're only healing the tank.

While it can be argued to be high level niche optimization...that's what all optimization ultimately boils down to and is the difference between 98% and 99% anyway. But there are legitimate times when saving instant cast burst heals makes a lot of sense.

Though I do agree on Cure 1 (and have pointed that out), I feel making it a straight upgrade to Cure 2 and Cure 2 only costing the 400 or whatever MP wouldn't be a problem. People are RARELY spamming Cure 2 as it is, aren't going OOM when they do so (between Thin Air and Lucid Dreaming), and WHM has among the worst MP economies of the healers despite it supposedly being an efficient, straightforward, and powerful healer. Cure 2 being cheaper than Benefic 2 would offeset AST's AOE heals all being cheaper than WHM's. It's already stupid that AST's GCD heals are both as powerful as WHMs AND more MP efficient with AST already having far better MP regen/economy. That's honestly just dumb. WHM heals should either be cheaper in MP OR should have greater potency vs AST's; either one would differentiate the two.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

As for SGE, I can think of a few, but it's already kind of low on buttons/in a good place.

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Actually, looking at the action counts? SGE is tied with WHM, and would be higher if not for Eukrasia. It's just harder to trim actions from SGE without losing some functionality (and it already fuses Diagnosis with its barrier), while WHM has a couple skills that are redundant with Lilies.

If you include the Limit Break, Sprint, and all role actions (even useless ones like Repose):

• AST and SCH have 36 actions (though this includes both Fairy summons and Undraw)
• PLD has 35
• DRK, NIN and SAM have 34
• RPR, SGE, WAR and WHM have 32
• The only jobs below 30 are MCH and SMN (and by technicality, BLU)

SGE has the advantage though since future additions can just be Eukrasian upgrades to existing ones if need be.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

Energy drain on sch.

So tired of getting players that don't know how to use their other aetherflow abilities because of fflogs.
Sage actually does aetherflow correctly with no dps dump ability and sage players are more often better than sch players this tier.

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A player being bad at their job shouldn't be an argument to remove something entirely for everyone, including those not bad at it.
If they can't handle ED, they have SGE.

The more I consider Scholar, the more it strikes me how badly the job requires a major rework.

It's bloated to the point of completely filling 3 action bars, but besides Selene and Eos being a literally cosmetic choice, there's no action you can trim from it without some loss of functionality.
Each of its oGCDs has a different cooldown or resource cost so you can't easily combine them, and something like "remove Fey Blessing and just give Indomitability a second charge" becomes fairly imbalanced despite the two fulfilling the same niche.
There are multiple actions that have mutually exclusive interactions with the faerie -- Seraph and Dissipation both remove it for different reasons, Aetherpact prevents it from performing any other action -- but then you also have tools like Fey Blessing that require that none of those already be active. Just having one of those would already be a tradeoff with the faerie, but three?
Energy Drain shares a time-limited resource with healing skills (unlike Addersgall or Lilies) and primarily exists to prevent overcapping resources (again, unlike Addersgall and Lilies), but without it the job just spams two actions to attack, so the only point of removing it would be to add something else to fill the gap.

Even "upgrade Physick into Adloquium" is arguably reductive, since barriers don't stack and Adlo's raw healing and MP cost are less efficient if a barrier is already active. Should you be in the niche position where GCD-healbotting is necessary or your target needs actual health to bypass a mechanic, having just Adlo is a downgrade. If you compare to WHM or AST, we would still argue to keep their Regens in addition to their Pure heals for much the same reasons, and SGE would still have their equivalent for at least use as a tuning knob, putting SCH behind.
And this is already with SCH being the only healer without a raw Medica equivalent to boot, just to really push that the bloat ain't coming from its GCDs.

At the very least, I think there needs to be a serious examination of whether the job needs both Aetherflow and so many faerie actions, because it desperately needs streamlining and both systems could stand to be consolidated.

not really remove but rework or adjustment

eurka= option to toggle on or off. if on it give instant shields all time and if off it does pre cast gcds. Gets annoyining when sever lag or latency sometimes makes it not work.

dosis (dot) separate it i hate when i wanna use a e diag or prog for big upcoming damage but the dot comes off and its like ok i gotta reapply it first or after i shield for incoming big damage or make it 60 sec like reaper dot and forget what was mention before.

soteria = reduce cool down to maybe 60 seconds or simply make it give a full adder sting stack similar rhizmata for more toxicon use

Rhiomata= give full addegall instead of just 1 ( not a must as sage adder charges fast and other than a full sprout party have no issue managing my resources but still saying incase.

zoe = cool down to 60 second and 100% garantee a crit when using e prog or dig

Pepsis= delete it lol sorry but not even with a sprout party have I ever need this OR let it just function like sch dt where it spreads a big e diag..only thing i can think of.

Krasis= gives party a 5 or 10% damage increase.

e prog= potency is now 200 heal with the barrier nerf from 360 hp restored to 130% or 160 of heal applied. ( this mess happen to 5.0 noct stance where they reduce aspect helios cure pot from 200 to 100 and make barrier 250 of heal which made it trash then they reversed it , same thing with current 100 cure pot 360% amount heal applied makes it garbo. with the cure change 200 pot equaling to 130 or 160% of amount heal for barrier it makes it equall or slighty weaker to succor.Though fairly e crit zoe diag does best out crit alco.. so single shield wise sage wins but aoe shield wise sch win. Guess its balance purposes.

These are just ideas not a must as overall am happy with sage and holos buff was a good treat to start. else the for changes i really want is krais soteria and pepsis looked at.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Actually, looking at the action counts? SGE is tied with WHM, and would be higher if not for Eukrasia. It's just harder to trim actions from SGE without losing some functionality (and it already fuses Diagnosis with its barrier), while WHM has a couple skills that are redundant with Lilies.

If you include the Limit Break and all role actions:

• AST, SCH and PLD have 36 actions (though this includes both Fairy summons and Undraw)
• DRK, NIN and SAM have 35
• BRD, RPR, SGE, WAR and WHM have 34
• The only jobs below 30 are MCH and SMN

SGE has the advantage though since future additions can just be Eukrasian upgrades to existing ones if need be.

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I’m trying to see if we’re counting differently for Sage and WHM, because even with LB, sprint, and all 6 role actions (though I know many healers who don’t have Repose on their bars), I am getting 33ish for Sage, and 32 for WHM.

I do think as a controller player that’s something nice about the two jobs though: less buttons overall. Sage does it kind of nicely with Eukrasia though it wouldn’t work for other jobs, but WHM has more skills that coud be combined, or trimmed or fleshed out more.

Something a lot of even controller players don’t know is if you play on Mixed or Toggle setting, it locks you out of the double tap quick access hotbars. That means instead of 48 buttons, you lose a whole cross hotbar so you only have 32 buttons to work with. I use Mixed since both the hold setting and KB+M are rough in my hands and wrists. This makes some jobs a bit tougher to play.

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Originally Posted by sergel02

I’m trying to see if we’re counting differently for Sage and WHM, because even with LB, sprint, and all 6 role actions (though I know many healers who don’t have Repose on their bars), I am getting 33ish for Sage, and 32 for WHM.

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Ah, silly me, I was doing a subtractive count (3 bars for 36 slots, subtract the empty spaces) but forgot that I included my mount button, then added an extra instead of subtracting it in post. RIP me.
I've updated the counts for accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

A player being bad at their job shouldn't be an argument to remove something entirely for everyone, including those not bad at it.
If they can't handle ED, they have SGE.

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I disagree. Removing ED in shb was the best thing ever. THey just needed to reblance how aetherflow worked and it would've been great.