Job action combos one button

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Yes [having 3 identical skills we'd be forced to rotate through is inherently more fun, no matter what is sacrificed to provide that button space for the extra, needless steps].

Multiple actions comboing off a single button makes it feel more like a smartphone game where it's just tap to win, or some other rudimentary simplistic system. It's not fun, nor is it engaging to play.
You could be doing sick flips and attacks and spark fire from the heavens, but if you're just pressing a single button to make it all happen, why not just go play one of those dime-a-dozen anime gacha games instead?

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Because pressing a single button for a single decision isn't remotely what makes a game a "dime-a-dozen anime gacha game" (whatever the hell that may be) any more than having to having to hit up to 7 buttons for a single decision is core to what makes XIV?

But, where would we be if "Can we consolidate mutually exclusive skill X and Y?" wasn't met with "Go play something else then," I wonder?

No thanks, don't dumb this game down like Blizzard did to wow

Most of the game's rotational complexity comes from OGCDs. While I'd be mildly annoyed at this change because I'm a lizard brain who likes having more buttons to press, it ultimately wouldn't change much of anything. Extra buttons don't add or detract anything from a job, it's functionally no different as long as it doesn't change the APM.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Never said it's the same, tho, I said it doesn't make the classes less interesting or less complex to play, but do make it easier on the hands.

I could go all the way to make an "you're an ableist" argument about people with arthrosis or whatever, but I don't want to even go there, just... why are you all so masochistic that you actually want to make your life harder for the exact same result ? Don't pretend 1-2-3 combos are fun, so 1-1-1 combos surely won't be much less fun. The fun is in other parts of the gameplay, and again, the fact you can't see that says a lot about you.

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I don't make my life harder for the exact same result. I've mentioned already even, in that very post you're quoting, that reducing the class design to just 1 button already makes my brain incapable of handling other systems, as it gets bored out of its mind. We're right that moving to 2 or 3 doesn't take really much, but that's the thing, it's still a thought. It keeps my brain with even the most minor of activity to do, rather than just try to make it scream DID IT PROC DID IT PROC????? over and over. BRD is my example, as the 1 button job in the game, I almost never get proper use of ref arrow procs, yet even just having a second button (like dnc) I suddenly notice the procs instantly. Minor thought goes a long way.

So, to tl;dr that, I'm not making it harder. For me, I'm actually making it easier.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Precisely, it says you're all jerking at your own reflection for being able to do 1-2-3, deny the actual button bloating on some classes, ask people to buy more complex controllers with more easily accessible buttons, while they might just not have the money for it, and so on. For the sake of the "fun" of something that's been a bore for 8 years. I just don't understand y'all, tbh, it's not even about tryhards anymore, you're just... weird.

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A basic controller works just fine. I don't seem to recall any controller player I know of (including real life players) who seem to need some special controller for the game. Far as I'm aware, Yoshida himself even plays with a basic controller, to ensure it's never broken, because he'll notice. As for bloat, reducing combo's doesn't reduce bloat. Removing abilities that are literally unused, like Fluid Aura, do that. Then again, I'm replying to someone who thinks I'm 'jerking off' because of how shortening the combo's completely kill what little engagement I can even find in some classes.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Touch some grass, really.

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I'd love to, but there's still snow here. But if you could try producing an actually on fire insult instead of the One in the "Internet insults for dummies" guide, it might melt a little faster and let me.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I don't make my life harder for the exact same result. I've mentioned already even, in that very post you're quoting, that reducing the class design to just 1 button already makes my brain incapable of handling other systems, as it gets bored out of its mind. We're right that moving to 2 or 3 doesn't take really much, but that's the thing, it's still a thought. It keeps my brain with even the most minor of activity to do, rather than just try to make it scream DID IT PROC DID IT PROC????? over and over. BRD is my example, as the 1 button job in the game, I almost never get proper use of ref arrow procs, yet even just having a second button (like dnc) I suddenly notice the procs instantly. Minor thought goes a long way.

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None of this makes sense to me. The fact you can't play bard is unrelated to the fact its filler is only one button, you just don't pay enough attention to procs, but you wouldn't pay more if you had 3 buttons to press instead. I... Don't know if you're seriously thinking that "having more things to think about makes it easier to think about even more things".

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A basic controller works just fine. I don't seem to recall any controller player I know of (including real life players) who seem to need some special controller for the game. Far as I'm aware, Yoshida himself even plays with a basic controller, to ensure it's never broken, because he'll notice. As for bloat, reducing combo's doesn't reduce bloat. Removing abilities that are literally unused, like Fluid Aura, do that. Then again, I'm replying to someone who thinks I'm 'jerking off' because of how shortening the combo's completely kill what little engagement I can even find in some classes.

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Sure, transforming three buttons into one doesn't reduce button bloat, better remove some skills that give some personality and possibilities to the job and that couldn't be condensated into one another to have more complexity and class identity. Surely you can't be serious.

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I'd love to, but there's still snow here. But if you could try producing an actually on fire insult instead of the One in the "Internet insults for dummies" guide, it might melt a little faster and let me.

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There is no snow, but your mind sure is frozen.

But by all means, stop answering to that pitiful buffoon that insults you while you can't make a proper argument that actually makes sense. Surely you can use that as an exit door for losing that argument.

Healer's word: pressing 1-2-3 is much more fun than 1-1-1.

It is indeed difficult to explain, because there is nothing complicated about a 1-2-3 combo. But it still adds a variety that you don't realize until it's gone.

I've seen a few comments come through complaining about their current lack of a button. Are you sure you've optimized your bars and shortcuts properly? On most jobs, I still have a few empty slots.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

None of this makes sense to me. The fact you can't play bard is unrelated to the fact its filler is only one button, you just don't pay enough attention to procs, but you wouldn't pay more if you had 3 buttons to press instead. I... Don't know if you're seriously thinking that "having more things to think about makes it easier to think about even more things".

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No, that one can make sense. If your moment-to-moment decision-making is barren to the point of painful tedium, it can be that much harder to make ready for the infrequent, larger points of decision.

I don't see how a rigid combo (i.e., any that takes up more buttons than it has actual available decisions) would provide moment-to-moment decision making, but it can at the least help one keep track of what GCD one is one, especially so long as the pull and one's rotation is consistent. If X mechanic always happens on/with Y (GCD) button-press, such helps with subconscious tracking of the fight. I wouldn't force that bloat upon others or reduce actual available kit complexity for so little, but it's something.

I wouldn't have a problem if they did this, on jobs where it makes sense at least. It definitely wouldn't work at all on some jobs like DNC for example.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

it can at the least help one keep track of what GCD one is one, especially so long as the pull and one's rotation is consistent. If X mechanic always happens on/with Y (GCD) button-press, such helps with subconscious tracking of the fight. I wouldn't force that bloat upon others or reduce actual available kit complexity for so little, but it's something.

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I can picture that, explained that way, yes. But those muscle memory trackings are irrelevant to what Jijifli said about procs. For classes that are borderline random (DNC and BRD mostly), procs are too random to help with that, and the only thing that help is focus. And that focus is, I think, more disturbed the more buttons you have to press. Maybe it can help and that's just not how my mind works but anyway, nobody's asking to have mandatory concatenated combos, I'm just advocating for the option to, so... why would anyone cry against that ?

And as you say, it's a matter of available decisions, and therefore, MNK can't be concatenated since every skill theoretically allows a choice. But DRG, on the other hand, can have its 5 GCD combo (or 10, if we want to go that far) reduced from 7 buttons to 1, and that's a lot against bloating.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

Healer's word: pressing 1-2-3 is much more fun than 1-1-1.

It is indeed difficult to explain, because there is nothing complicated about a 1-2-3 combo. But it still adds a variety that you don't realize until it's gone.

I've seen a few comments come through complaining about their current lack of a button. Are you sure you've optimized your bars and shortcuts properly? On most jobs, I still have a few empty slots.

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I play healers for roulettes, and I can see where that's coming from, but I always felt like it came from the lack of oGCD damage spells. For example, if I had concatenated combos on my Reaper, I would still have my burst to keep me awake. Keeping an eye on my gauges, counting how many GCDs I need to do before doing other things, etc. Maybe you're right, and if I played reaper with concatenated combos, it would be a bore. But I'd still fight for the option to have it for people that want to use it.

As for button bloats, while I don't suffer personnally from this, tanks have pretty much three full bars of skills and CDs. Of course you can optimize to have more easily accessible buttons bound, but let's be honest, why would you refuse people that struggle with button bloat an option to have less bloating ?

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

I can picture that, explained that way, yes. But those muscle memory trackings are irrelevant to what Jijifli said about procs. For classes that are borderline random (DNC and BRD mostly), procs are too random to help with that, and the only thing that help is focus. And that focus is, I think, more disturbed the more buttons you have to press. Maybe it can help and that's just not how my mind works but anyway, nobody's asking to have mandatory concatenated combos, I'm just advocating for the option to, so... why would anyone cry against that ?

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Sorry, I should probably have started from that exact example. Again, for me procs don't make much of a difference unless I can meaningfully bank them -- short of that, they actually make things more mind-numbing for me. Heck, when they're literally locked out until the proc, one can just key-swipe / button-slide (2->1 for Refulgent if available, Burst if not; Reverse Cascade if procced, Cascade otherwise; etc.), so there's no need to even have the procs on one's screen.

But, for some... maybe. Maybe they're on a controller and don't claw-grip and therefore key-sliding isn't as practical and "hit button when flashing" is enough to give them their kicks, which in turn gets them thinking about their next Standard Step. I don't know. That certainly doesn't match my experience, but so long as there is some degree of bankability such that the separate buttons are actually doing something, I don't see it as a waste. Inefficient, sure --such that I'd prefer more involved mechanics around them-- but not pure bloat.

I just don't find rigid combos to have any such redeeming feature and would prefer they therefore be redesigned to offer some reason for needing separate buttons (a la Monk) or the option be given to consolidate them and, if it came down to either job depth from making use of the buttons saved for smaller total button counts for those who want every action to have its own button, that we favor depth over pretense.

Now, one may point out that so long as the future of job kits would depend on that consolidation, and those who don't use that option to consolidate as reasonable might therefore end up with an uncomfortable amount of buttons, then the player choice to consolidate wouldn't really be an "option". And that's true. Eventually, maybe, consolidating or not would be only nebulously a "choice", favoring ease of button-presses on one hand and subconscious ease of tracking timing on the other. But that's still a whole lot more choice than is allowed to console (or mod-less) players presently.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

But DRG, on the other hand, can have its 5 GCD combo (or 10, if we want to go that far) reduced from 7 buttons to 1, and that's a lot against bloating.

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3 or 4. You'd still want to give the option for multi-DoTing via back-to-back CT combos, or to overextend towards a further Full Thrust combo in finishing off an enemy. And of course the AoE combo would be its own button. Though, that'd still save 60% to 70% of the button count required for DRG's combos (10 keys total). Add to that Jump -> Mirage Dive (though you'll likely want a player-choseable safety period, for those of us who button-mash), and you should have some very comfortable palettes (sets of 4 keys) on controller.

That "or 4" is just a question of whether you want to be able to cancel your Wheeling/Fang steps in favor of another combo, which is basically never viable once you get Lance Mastery II, even if Life Surge is coming back up, since the +100 potency 5th step more than makes up Life Surge being used on it instead of Full Thrust if it must be.

If the options were left to us, I'd just use 3 buttons. Chaos+2, Full+2, AoE. (Piercing Talon not here accounted for, but obviously its own button as well, especially now that it no longer breaks combos.)

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Some final food for thought:

True customization would allow us a bit of QoL even if these buttons (e.g., Refulgent Arrow, which will currently always be used over Burst Shot) were given reason to exist separately. For instance, one might have a key use Refulgent over Burst Shot if available, or Bootshine over Dragon Kick if Leaden Fist is up, without sacrificing the ability to deliberately Burst Shot despite having a proc or deliberate Bootshine even without Leaden Fist. As such, players who'd prefer to split their buttons to "conserve resource" vs. "burn resources" or "prioritize sustain" vs. "prioritize burst" could do so, as may make more sense to them.

I certainly expect that to some players those procs and how they shuffle which button we ought to press for what general decision (that is, again, until we just key-swipe to the same effect as the aforementioned Refulgent-over-Burst, etc.), is compelling gameplay (yet only compelling enough to follow if everyone is likewise forced to), so I doubt that would ever get anywhere, but that is just another avenue that such changes could go down, if we had interest.