The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion

@Azuri Why do you hate smn so much? Where did the bad smn touch you? Did an smn kill your dog? All your posts on this thread have been nothing but biased and hostile toward smns. All we want is not to end up a dead job in EW. I say it again you can't have your cake and eat it too. If we use your PoV smn would be dead and I think that what you want, isn't it? Just admit you hate smn and you are just here to troll on a thread that is just trying to suggest ways to make it better and relevant. No one asking to nerf or kill rdm by asking this, unlike you who is asking for smn to die. So I say it again if you not going to offer constructive suggestions and solutions for the smn problems, then leave and go to a rdm thread and stroke your own ego with other rdms.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

So after 5 pages of back and forth, your solution exactly aligns with a statement I've made in my very first message of this thread?

If we were to re-introduce player skill into this discussion, and align it at the point where SMN can have higher DPS, but only in the hands of a skilled player, I would have way less issues with your insistence on it. I would also have an entirely justifiable defense against being forced to play SMN once prog is over. Because a skilled RDM player would still perform better than an average SMN. The same way it works in regards to BLM.


You are equally as defensive of your preferred job as I am. At least I have the decency to admit it.

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https://i.imgur.com/JIiRQxd.png

So I guess I didn't put a list on the first topic of this thread of suggestions I'd do to fix the caster jobs.

You are also overestimating the complexity of Red Mage a lot dude.

My Eden Verse logs

Mind you the backstory why I went Red Mage is because I did week 1 prog on Paladin and cleared. I injured my left hand as a result and sustain a root irritation which left me with 2 functioning fingers on my left hand for 6 months because covid closed physiotherapy where I live. The group disbanded so I went with casual friends. I picked Red Mage, which I had never raided with in my life and I had just hit 80 with because it was the most brain dead job in the game in my eyes. Even with half a left hand, I got high purple logs. That's how much I see your main job. That,s how complex I see it and I doubt you can make anyone believe that it's more complex now. If anything, they made it easier.

Why would my one brain cell job just be straight out inferior to your one brain cell job? That's a stupid argument to rely on.

Again, anything that you say provides no proper usefulness to the thread. You have heavily biased toward your job. Same can be said to any main Summoner but any obvious main Summoner here know what proper balance is. You mainly want to have the caster job that has the best damage, best utility and best exposure. You don't want the other casters come close to you because you only want to play Red Mage. This is a Caster thread and the one job that requires the most help right now is Summoner, not Red Mage.

If you can't even agree when everybody tells you so on this forum and that even established world first players from TPS just straight up say that Summoner needs help then you're living in complete denial.

Your initial list doesn't mention much in regards to increasing SMN complexity. Neither can I see anything about having less restrictive rotation, the point you have been so heavily hung up on. You just straight up asked to be put above Red Mage. If you don't see how this is not pleasant to read for a Red Mage player, spending a patch or two with the lowest damage might humble you a bit. You've had your time in the sun after SE hyperbuffed SMN early in ShB.

Also, if you wanted your thread to be a SMN circlejerk, don't name it "The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion". Name it like one of the other SMN only threads we have so many of.

I mean, objectively speaking, RDM really did spend the vast majority of its existence a meme almost entirely because of SMN. It isn't unreasonable that people with a preference for RDM would like to be allowed to to do content outside of the first two weeks of it for once. Putting SMN above RDM is going to slide them right back to Rez Mage status, particularly with how low risk SMN is now. SMN definitely needs help, but putting it in a position where it begins to eclipse RDM all over again is not the way to go about it. RDM already gets hit pretty hard in the DPS when it has to employ its utility.

And to note, RDM was changed up a bit with Endwalker. It now requires two brain cells instead of one.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Your initial list doesn't mention much in regards to increasing SMN complexity. Neither can I see anything about having less restrictive rotation, the point you have been so heavily hung up on. You just straight up asked to be put above Red Mage. If you don't see how this is not pleasant to read for a Red Mage player, speding a patch or two with the lowest damage might humble you a bit. You've had your time in the sun after SE hyperbuffed SMN early in ShB.

Also, if you wanted your thread to be a SMN circlejerk, don't name it "The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion". Name it like one of the other SMN only threads we have so many of.

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Plz rdm was by far not the lowest DPS in ShBs. I don't ever remember rdms being kicked or not being picked over smns. So how about stop trying to play the victim card like rdm was a dead job in any expac. I know I never asked to be hyperbuffed any expac. I always personally believe rdm and smn should be very close together in damage with smn slight beating them bc of the utility and rezs rdm does bring to the table. No one attacked you and no one is asking for rdm to be nerfed. So come down back to reality and stop having a powertrip. Being better than smn has really gone to your head and infected your ego so much.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I mean, objectively speaking, RDM really did spend the vast majority of its existence a meme almost entirely because of SMN. It isn't unreasonable that people with a preference for RDM would like to be allowed to to do content outside of the first two weeks of it for once. Putting SMN above RDM is going to slide them right back to Rez Mage status, particularly with how low risk SMN is now. SMN definitely needs help, but putting it in a position where it begins to eclipse RDM all over again is not the way to go about it. RDM already gets hit pretty hard in the DPS when it has to employ its utility.

And to note, RDM was changed up a bit with Endwalker. It now requires two brain cells instead of one.

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The ok question to you "Why should anyone bring a smn over a rdm?" Please tell me what benefits a party gets for deciding to bring a smn over a rdm right now? Also, rdm being meme is a community problem and not a balance problem. I remember smn in ShB switching to rdm bc they didn't like smn rotation and the ghosting pet had. So I don't believe in this whole" RDM was dead after prog" meme yall keep bring up. Also at least rdm saw action during prog. Smn won't even sees that right now.

@Azuri

- If anything, you provide nothing of value in this thread.
- This is a caster thread because it speaks of the current imbalance between BLM, SMN and RDM
- You personally attacked every single SMN discussion here and you tried to gaslight everyone with invalid arguments such as mobility should be taxed and that RDM support shouldn't matter in it's firepower
- You then gaslighted me by saying I'm biased for being a main Summoner while I've never trash talked any RDM nor I want them to be nerfed or straight up inferior to SMN
- You completely deny other testimonies from established world progression players on their choice and how they feel Summoner is weak and requires help right now
- You completely derailed this thread because you just and cannot accept that people want a balanced caster scene. Red Mage must be stronger from firepower and support so SMN may has well be deleted.

Mind you that it's fine that Summoner is this way right now and requires feedback. They received an entire job overhaul that has potential but too many flaws to work right now. The job overhaul was to allow Summoners to feel the gameplay like Summoner. That's also why it's the main topic of casters because they have to be compared to Red Mage and Black Mage and because Black Mage is a pure selfish DPS, the main role it needs to be compared is RDM.

That's like if you were a main Monk trying to defend why Ninja shouldn't get adjustments and buffs because finally, finally stinky little Ninja is trash and Monk is good.

Do you understand why you're the villain right now?

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

You are also overestimating the complexity of Red Mage a lot dude.

My Eden Verse logs
I injured my left hand as a result and sustain a root irritation which left me with 2 functioning fingers on my left hand for 6 months because covid closed physiotherapy where I live. The group disbanded so I went with casual friends. I picked Red Mage, which I had never raided with in my life and I had just hit 80 with because it was the most brain dead job in the game in my eyes. Even with half a left hand, I got high purple logs.

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I think you're being a bit disingenuous by acting like you got high purples on your first clears through the fight. On Ramuh, yes, but as soon as Ifrit and Garuda it takes you six clears to get anything above 65. Your first clears of Idol are green, grey, and green. It took you four clears to get your only purple ever in Shiva. With one and a half hands, sure that's impressive and I don't want to take away that accomplishment, but don't pretend you even halfway began to optimize the job.
My own, for reference.

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That's how much I see your main job. That,s how complex I see it and I doubt you can make anyone believe that it's more complex now. If anything, they made it easier.

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On May 20, when you got your 92 (I'm assuming you were still playing with half a hand at this point, whether or not this is true a 92 is impressive), I got my 98 (and a 99 the next day) pulling out somewhere near 400 more rDPS and about 300 more aDPS. That extra hand, and the extra ability it gave me, allowed me to optimize with my team to do a not-inconsiderable amount more damage.
They lowered the skill floor of Red Mage but raised the skill ceiling with EW. You might be able to get in easier, heck you might even be able to parse those nice 80s and 90s keeping in mind there are a lot of players who flock to the job "because it's easy" and tend to populate the bottom rung making it easier to parse high on the job. I would argue the increase in choice for when to burst is an increase in depth--as more choice means more places to die a death of a thousand cuts when trying to perform high with the job, but this argument of what is and isn't "braindead" has been exhausting ever since Stormblood with people claiming whatever job they don't like, don't main, or are trying to talk down in the moment for whatever reason is "braindead."
SAM is braindead. RPR is braindead. I've seen some say DRG is braindead. I've seen people simultaneously say MNK is braindead and the most complex thing ever even in EW. The tanks are braindead, the healers are braindead, you press the glowy lights as DNC and get 100's, MCH is just one string of buttons pressed ad nauseum. This leads into the next quote where I kind of back off and end up agreeing with you, but it just rubs me the wrong way that you presented it as "Look I got purples despite being injured my first go round, what a braindead job that one can't optimize on!" when really, no, you trended towards low purple and blue, you were nowhere near optimal with the job.

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Why would my one brain cell job just be straight out inferior to your one brain cell job? That's a stupid argument to rely on.

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Honestly at this point I'll slide a bit back in this conversation because I don't believe that complexity ought to contribute to a job's performance. "Difficulty" is so subjective in this game, even its definition (are we defining difficulty as "depth of choice"? "Depth of consequence"? "Effort in execution"? Something else I might not have posted?) is in contention, let alone what stick is used to measure it. Anything is braindead if you ask the right person about the topic. To balance around "difficulty" or "busy-ness" of the jobs is something that is outright impossible because nobody agrees what "difficult" even is, and even the devs frequently don't know the weird depths players will go to to optimize their jobs so their word on the topic is about as good as anyone else's.

What I will add as a closing remark on this long, rambly post that I hope doesn't get me jailed because of the no-no site is that, in your list of proposed changes (where raise is equalized between SMN and RDM), they ought to do similar damage with neither outright outperforming the other (obviously in any case there would be over/under, but I'm talking intentional "X job must outperform Y job because Z.") MB is not outrageously better than Phoenix despite Phoenix's limitations. Mobility ought to not be taxed as it is, and the entire phys ranged should be brought up in damage alongside SMN.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

@Azuri

- If anything, you provide nothing of value in this thread.
- This is a caster thread because it speaks of the current imbalance between BLM, SMN and RDM
- You personally attacked every single SMN discussion here and you tried to gaslight everyone with invalid arguments such as mobility should be taxed and that RDM support shouldn't matter in it's firepower
- You then gaslighted me by saying I'm biased for being a main Summoner while I've never trash talked any RDM nor I want them to be nerfed or straight up inferior to SMN
- You completely deny other testimonies from established world progression players on their choice and how they feel Summoner is weak and requires help right now
- You completely derailed this thread because you just and cannot accept that people want a balanced caster scene. Red Mage must be stronger from firepower and support so SMN may has well be deleted.

Mind you that it's fine that Summoner is this way right now and requires feedback. They received an entire job overhaul that has potential but too many flaws to work right now. The job overhaul was to allow Summoners to feel the gameplay like Summoner. That's also why it's the main topic of casters because they have to be compared to Red Mage and Black Mage and because Black Mage is a pure selfish DPS, the main role it needs to be compared is RDM.

That's like if you were a main Monk trying to defend why Ninja shouldn't get adjustments and buffs because finally, finally stinky little Ninja is trash and Monk is good.

Do you understand why you're the villain right now?

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Not agreeing with you doesn't mean that I'm not contributing to the conversation. Your opinions are not absolute and as such are open to be challenged. Your opinion on "ranged tax" doesn't align with the precedent of how SE balanced physical ranged. Your opinion on rotational difficulty not correlating with higher damage doesn't align with the view of Director and Producer himself. I find it equally fair to challenge your opinion on support and general balance as well. Afterall, your arguments are full of double standards and fallacies. And since you have not yet deigned to adress those I consider them pretty valuable to highlight.

Honestly, we could meet in the middle as SaberMaxwell pointed out. With SMN and RDM on par with each other. Add another 200-250 rDPS to SMN and they will be within 5% variation and crit RNG of each other. One will pay for it's slightly higher support capabilites and the other for its slightly higher rotational simplicity and mobility. And no one will feel useless.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Not agreeing with you doesn't mean that I'm not contributing to the conversation. Your opinions are not absolute and as such are open to be challenged. Your opinion on "ranged tax" doesn't align with the precedent of how SE balanced physical ranged. Your opinion on rotational difficulty not correlating with higher damage doesn't align with the view of Director and Producer himself. I find it equally fair to challenge your opinion on support and general balance as well. Afterall, your arguments are full of double standards and fallacies. And since you have not yet deigned to adress those I consider them pretty valuable to highlight.

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If yoshi p believed that "busy" and "complex" should be a deciding factor for dps then why was smn always nerfed after it was hyperbuff? By that standard smn should have out dps sam and blm in both SB and ShB but that's not what happened. Every time they overturned smn in the .1 patch they would continue to nerf it patches later till it fell back where it should be. Also, I love yoshi p and respect him greatly but he never has had a good judgment on smn since he doesn't play it. He has said why too, he doesn't like pet jobs and he like blm better. So when it came to smn it always felt like the dev and yoshi p never played the job. If they did they would know all the problems that have pledge smn for so long now. The rework isn' an exception to that. It still feels like a job that the devs and yoshi never really playtested or anything. His baby is blm and that why you never see blm be in a state like smn is in every expac and nothing wrong that, we all have our favorites.

Also as Saber above said "Difficulty" is so subjective in this game and even the devs don't know how players optimize their jobs. I still remember the guide that devs released last expac and gave an example opener for smn that was completely wrong and didn't try to get the standard 8 ww in baha. So tbh I don't put to much steak in the devs trying to optimize a job or define what is busy and what isn't busy. That why feedback threads like this one are so important so we the players who actually play the jobs they make give out feedback in hopes they will fix the problems.

Yoshi actually did mention that busy jobs should be doing more dps in that XIV radio he was on the other day and might buff a few for 6.08. He always contradicts himself on this point though. One year he'll say they don't balance on complexity and another year he'll say they should buff a job that's busy but feels unrewarding in damage.