A better idea for dungeons besides speed run.

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Originally Posted by fusional

i'm simply trying to remind people that we already have a ton of really easy, casual content in the game. we don't really have any hardcore content. speed runs aren't difficult, but they're the closest thing we currently have to hardcore content.

if you take that away, then what? where's my content? how will this be resolved?

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If they take that away, they could make real difficult content that relies on strategy and good party makeup, not class stacking and running from mobs? Oh no.

As for how they can make it difficult without having speed runs, they could do a number of things. Just as an example, as people have already said on this very thread they can make optional bosses within dungeons that are required to unlock the higher level chests. Or make conditions on the boss, like a boss with multiple body parts (that could require different strategies to kill, such as one being resistant to magic and another to physical attacks) that you have to take out before killing the boss himself to get the full clear.

Speed runs are just the easiest and the lamest way to add artificial difficulty and they need to stop relying on it.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

As for how they can make it difficult without having speed runs, they could do a number of things. Just as an example, as people have already said on this very thread they can make optional bosses within dungeons that are required to unlock the higher level chests. Or make conditions on the boss, like a boss with multiple body parts (that could require different strategies to kill, such as one being resistant to magic and another to physical attacks) that you have to take out before killing the boss himself to get the full clear.

Speed runs are just the easiest and the lamest way to add artificial difficulty and they need to stop relying on it.

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it sounds like you and i have vastly different ideas of the word "difficult", as i still can't understand the implied difficulty in killing parts of a boss before killing the boss. i can switch targets, i can hit buttons. that's supposed to be hard? please. i've experienced plenty of what you're talking about in other FF titles, and it was never hard then. it's supposed to magically be difficult now?

as far as optional bosses go, what's the point unless they're harder? and if they're harder, what do you say/do about all the people who will be predictably upset about being unable to kill them and therefore unable to access some of the same loot as other players? do you just say "suck it up, princess" and ignore them? (i'd be all for that, but given the direction the game has taken thus far i STRONGLY doubt that would ever happen)

and hey, protip: class stacking is for people who are tired of running the same instance 400 times for loot with a 1% (or less) drop rate and just want to get it over with as fast as possible every single time. that doesn't mean everyone has to do it and certainly doesn't mean it's required to finish a speed run. this has already been proven quite thoroughly.

the fact that you list "running from mobs" makes me question whether you've even experienced AV/CC. so i'm guessing you heard some other people who haven't done AV/CC talking about DH and assuming AV/CC speed runs would be the same, and then you're just parroting what they said?

because, yeah. you only "run from" or sleep like 2 small packs of diremites in AV (or you can just kill them), and there's only one pack of mobs in CC i can recall avoiding off-hand. you kill so many damn mobs between the two of them (yes! even on a speed run! GASP) that it's actually a pretty damn awesome way to spiritbond.

the bottom line is: yes, this stuff is too easy. and yes, i want it to be MUCH harder. however, no- your suggestions don't sound terribly challenging at all. and no, i don't really trust your judgment regarding "difficulty" in the first place. sorry.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Why not have different bosses for different chest so people can target the loot they are going for? Make it optional to kill all the bosses for the full chest run and keep it optional to do them all seperate.

I don't know but I just don't see how "Kill it in 10 minutes" is really a challenge than it is an anoyance if you don't go in with the "perfect" party setup. Why should a group who has a higher balance of healing to DPS get shafted if they can still kill everything allbeit a bit slower?

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so your answer to something that isn't really a challenge is to, again, make it even less challenging?

this seems to be a recurring theme in this thread.

They could always make the boss as hard as AV or PW from back in the day..is that hard enough!? :O

sure, bring it on. :)

hehe woot! that would honestly be more fun then speed runs ^_^

well, the OP was about chests and such, im personally less concerned with the carrot at the end of the stick and having read every post, im pretty sure the spirit of the thread became about the journey not the destination so much. in my opinion thats what the DEVs should take from this.

in other words: gives us a different mechanics that reward different player styles/wants/needs
some want the carrot- speed run
others want the journey- exploration run/ story run
some are even sadistic blood hungry bastards- completion run

Is the question really weather it is too easy or hard... I don't think so... It has to do with the content of the dungeon. (Sorry to compare to FFXI) People lined up weekly to give up 4 hours of their life for the chance to get their gear or Items for crafting. There was good content in that. Granted a good storyline is paramount in the need for the dungeon/event. Speed runs get extremely boring very fast, and i have to strongly agree with OP for the most part the world is about making the cookie cutter society which makes it difficult to get into a group unless you have BLM, WHM, or Tank. There was a post in here that stated SE should leave the Dungeons alone that already exist, but had more dungeons/events that are more substansial and are worth running. (Not saying at all they should have to last 4+ hours) Let each job be worth something in the new dungeons, so the shouts are not "Looking for" BLM, for ......... dungeon." Having the speed run style dungeon is good once in a while... but not the whole game long. Keep up the good work SE.

Difficulty & Rewards: To the DEVS

im not a cool kid, im no KEYBOARD WIZAERD like some cats on this thread , i leave and entrust difficulty to you

reward, i dont give a rats ass, make the cool stuff before the reward

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Originally Posted by Fionlagh

well, the OP was about chests and such, im personally less concerned with the carrot at the end of the stick and having read every post, im pretty sure the spirit of the thread became about the journey not the destination so much. in my opinion thats what the DEVs should take from this.

in other words: gives us a different mechanics that reward different player styles/wants/needs
some want the carrot- speed run
others want the journey- exploration run/ story run
some are even sadistic blood hungry bastards- completion run

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Ohh I don't know you yet I feel like you know me so well. :D

But basically yes. In my ideas and suggestions, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing a speed run, but it shouldn't be what determines if you get a 5th tier chest or not. There should be a challenge involved getting that 5th chest that doesn't "require" you to rush through the dungeon, it should take some special and difficult requirement to obtain it, enjoying the quality of the content at the same time.

If elitist enjoy speed runs so much, maybe we could meet in the middle and impliment something that was used in FFXI. Remember when instanced fights in FFXI had who's party has beaten this fight the fastest? It would give elitist incentive to speed run and those who don't care as much about that to simply enjoy the content inside.

But again, this isn't about difficulty, if anything I believe they should make the dungeon harder, but blazing through it shouldn't be the way to go. Like someone said, all speed runs do is add artificial difficulty to the dungeon. I want a requirement that not just any random put together party can do. I want a 5th requirement that only well formed parties can do, but not feel rushed in the process.