Delete Clemency and Vercure

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Something has occurred to me.

OP made this thread about wanting to prepull mobs as a healer. Most responses clapped back saying that wasn't his job, it's the tank's job. He has conceded that the community clearly dislike when healers do this but still does not understand why.

And now he makes a thread complaining when non-healers heal.

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Wait a second. Doesn't this thread prove that "it's not your job" argument is invalid? I could say that you shouldn't be using Clemency or Vercure because it "isn't your job" to heal, just like it isn't my job as healer to pull. Did you just get yourself into a corner argument wise or am I missing something?

You might start saying that it is PLD and RDM's job to heal because it's part of their toolkit, well what would stop me to prepull in scenario I had described in that thread? Isn't it just as rude to not trust your healer to heal you well as prepulling as healer because you don't trust the Tank's judgement? Is my reasoning flawed or are you guys actually hypocrites? (not meant offensive, genuinely wondering)

In any world where vercure is removed, RDM needs to have a substitute self-cast spell to help it prepare during down phases.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Honestly I can't figure out if OP is somehow clueless about some things, or very good at trolling.

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Originally Posted by Enla

My guess? He's a good troll. The best ones are the ones that blur that line between cluelessness and incredulity.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

Thank you, i was wondering if it was the same person or I remembered wrong.
So either they're butthurt from the replies there or really good at trolling or both.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

With the first thread I thought maybe he was just clueless. Combined with this thread I'm convinced he's an elaborate troll or just a narcissist who thinks everyone should stay in their lane. Except for himself of course--he can do whatever he wants in the name of "efficiency".

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Originally Posted by Centershock

I honestly think he's trolling at this point and he knows exactly what he's doing. Like, how did he expect this thread to go when he's practically asking to remove a skill from both RDM and PLD that basically makes their class what they are?

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It's okay to disagree with someone. No need to call me a troll.

I think you've been in too much of an echo chamber if you consider both this and my previous thread as trolling.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Wait a second. Doesn't this thread prove that "it's not your job" argument is invalid? I could say that you shouldn't be using Clemency or Vercure because it "isn't your job" to heal, just like it isn't my job as healer to pull. Did you just get yourself into a corner argument wise or am I missing something?

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While the situations may look similar, the reasons for them are the opposite for each other. A PLD or RDM is using heals because they feel they or the party is in danger and they don't trust your heals. And given the amount of bad healers I've both met and read about I really can't fault them. Similarly a tank may be doing small pulls because they don't trust your heals and feel the danger from larger ones is too great. Meanwhile you pull more because you feel the danger is not enough. It's your boredom versus their feeling of comfort and safety - by what privilege do you place your feelings over theirs?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You get insulted way too easily.

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You might be right about that one, but it's hardly my main point. Don't you see the scenario in which you are putting some effort to edge heal and dps as much as possible while you have everything under control so that the dungeon will progress faster? Your effort goes to waste because PLD or RDM decided to sacrifice their dps to heal. It's like you put extra effort to help other players progress faster and they respond by sacrificing their dps and thus make your effort go to waste.

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Originally Posted by tdb

While the situations may look similar, the reasons for them are the opposite for each other. A PLD or RDM is using heals because they feel they or the party is in danger and they don't trust your heals. And given the amount of bad healers I've both met and read about I really can't fault them. Similarly a tank may be doing small pulls because they don't trust your heals and feel the danger from larger ones is too great. Meanwhile you pull more because you feel the danger is not enough. It's your boredom versus their feeling of comfort and safety

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Originally Posted by tdb

by what privilege do you place your feelings over theirs?

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Efficiency. (don't take this out of context please, consider the full post I'm responding to)

They shouldn't feel uncomfortable in the first place, if they do, I would argue that they have bad/unfair judgement (which is okay) and need to work on that. I hear many say that they encounter healers that do let them die. In that case, unless it's obvious that healer won't be able to heal you (hard cast rez, dead, ..) you should trust your healer. If it did lead to party being wiped, then by all means do use Vercure/Cemency next time for insurance.

There might be an exception for Paladins in some (specific lower level) dungeons when either healer or tank isn't up to par with their gear and they overpull. Then it could perhaps be a good idea to throw a few clemencies when you don't have any defense buffs going on while taking enormous amount of damage. But it should never be as a respond to how much health you have because you can't predict that with the cast time. A response to how much damage you are taking can be debatable, a response to how much health you have is imo always bad practice in group content for PLD (except for those exceptional cases you know healer is unable to heal).

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Originally Posted by SamRF

You might be right about that one, but it's hardly my main point. Don't you see the scenario in which you are putting some effort to edge heal and dps as much as possible while you have everything under control so that the dungeon will progress faster? Your effort goes to waste because PLD or RDM decided to sacrifice their dps to heal. It's like you put extra effort to help other players progress faster and they respond by sacrificing their dps and thus make your effort go to waste.

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As I said in the other thread: communicate. Not everyone values clear speed above everything else, so don't just go and assume that. Trying to force other to play the way you want with your actions is rude and will get a negative response.

Hmm. No. I quite like my ability to solo things as PLD.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I've tried several times to tell players to not use Clemency but they always took offense and started getting defense or didn't respond and continued to use it. My wording was along the lines of "please don't use Clemency" or "you don't need to use Clemency". It's a little confrontational to tell someone to stop using an ability when they didn't ask for advice, so no entirely unreasonable that they react that way I guess. How would you go about asking someone to stop using it? Genuinely asking, cause I could probably use different wording.

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(Even though it feels slightly weird to bring up something from page 3 again this late in thread I wanted to reply to this now that I'm awake again)

There are two things I'd like to say about this - one is an answer to your question, the other one goes more towards the general notion of this thread.

Lets start with the answer to your question: I wouldnt do things much different than you do - tell them that they can trust me to keep them alive and that they dont need to cast Clemency/Vercure (I usually try to pair that with a light hearted tone, maybe even in a joking manner so they dont get the impression that I'm trying to criticise them directly. When healing I play as scholar, so most often its something along the lines of "You dont need to use Clemency, Selene and I can keep you up - and if not we'll blame it on the fairy!"). If they still do that, I shrug and be happy that I get to dps more. Considering that it can be an overall dps-gain to have the healer keep dpsing, I dont see a problem here. Its not always an overall dps loss to have a paladin cast Clemency - fair enough, thats different for Vercure, but still.

For my second point I'd like to point out again that a good PLD/RDM will only use those tools if needed (because of healers who are for some reason unable to keep up with the incoming damage, for example because they're dead on the floor). That means that playing with a good healer wont require any additional healing.
If you encounter a healing PLD/RDM in situations where no extra heals were needed, you simply encountered someone who isnt playing their class well. Happens. All the time. Gotta shrug it off, specially since its not making your job harder (unlike the dragoon who manages to stand in all AoEs while still missing all of their positionals). I get that its less satisfying to fully optimise yourself, but thats something you usually can only achieve in a pre-made group in the first place.
And as I mentioned: You'll encounter bad players of every job all the time, including bad healers - and then extra heals are a godsent, allowing parties to still get through content even though their healer managed to somehow die within the first 10 seconds of a fight. Or to support the second healer in 8-man content if their co-healer is useless. Or not having to start a 10 minute fight all over again because both healers went down with the boss at 10%.

Specially Clemency is a way to deal with bad healers or to support struggling ones.
Your way to deal with bad PLD/RDMs is to get over it, notice that they're not doing any actual harm to anyone but their own personal dps - which probably isnt even great to begin with if they're healing without cause - and shrug it off.
Your way to dealing with healers being boring to play is to request that healers get more engaging spells again.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Efficiency. (don't take this out of context please, consider the full post I'm responding to)

They shouldn't feel uncomfortable in the first place, if they do, I would argue that they have bad/unfair judgement (which is okay) and need to work on that. I hear many say that they encounter healers that do let them die. In that case, unless it's obvious that healer won't be able to heal you (hard cast rez, dead, ..) you should trust your healer. If it did lead to party being wiped, then by all means do use Vercure/Cemency next time for insurance.

There might be an exception for Paladins in some (specific lower level) dungeons when either healer or tank isn't up to par with their gear and they overpull. Then it could perhaps be a good idea to throw a few clemencies when you don't have any defense buffs going on while taking enormous amount of damage. But it should never be as a respond to how much health you have because you can't predict that with the cast time. A response to how much damage you are taking can be debatable, a response to how much health you have is imo always bad practice in group content for PLD (except for those exceptional cases you know healer is unable to heal).

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I wouldnt say they have bad/unfair judgment - I dare say that they've simply encountered to many healers who are struggling and are now careful.

Before this patch I took a bit of a hiatus from DF, but now with new tomes and a new NM raid I'm dipping my toes back in - granted, all of this is now first week experience, but so far I've seen the following healers:
- dead for 50% of E5-8
- unable to deal with mechanics and healing tanks at the same time (which resulted in a dead tank in E7NM - who died from autoattacks and took no additional damage they shouldnt have taken. With an ilvl of 472 and CDs up. The mechanic was "run to one side" - which can be paired with an instant heal)
- letting the tank die to a mitigated tankbuster from a dungeonboss

Any person you encounter through DF is a stranger, so why should I just trust them straight away? Obviously one should go in with the expectation that everyone in there is capable of doing their job - but trust? Nope, thats something you gotta earn. And you might be burdend by me encountering several healers before you who worked very hard not to earn any amount of trust.