Healing is a part of healer, but look up any healer log and compare the heal casts to the DPS casts, see which one they press more, and by a wiiide margin. Is it "everything"? Of course not, is it what I do the vast majority of the time with very little breaks, and gets lesser and lesser if I don't have a team full of people that eat glue? Here, I'll design a DPS for you that plays just like healers, let's see how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by LariaKirin
RDM: healer edition, by Billy
Jolt: 500 potency (or whatever potency would be appropriate for DPS) main spam ability
Verjolt: does damage over 30 seconds, potency whatever
Contra six: same as now
Fleche: same as now
Veraero: oGCD 60 second recast time. Potency whatever
Verfire: oGCD 60 second recast time. Potency whatever
Vercure: same as now
Verraise: same as now
Vermedica: aoe heal
Jobgauge: press jolt 10 times and you can use scorch: potency whatever
There you go, maybe throw in a few oGCDs for flavor if you want. But I've just about made a RDM that plays close to healers, 3 panic GCDs, some oGCDs to cycle through, 1 dot and 1 spam. Is it 1 to 1 as healers? Eh, I only put as much thought into it as SE put into healers this expac, so prolly not, but it's close. Now, go ask RDMs if they would like my design or, if like I suspect, they'd throw it in the garbage.
I hate to, but I think I put down healing for now. Please make it engaging again, SE.
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11-14-2019, 09:41 PMBillythepancake
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11-14-2019, 09:42 PMLariaKirinYou're missing the point or the context. I'm not saying that's all we do, I'm saying the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saefinn
Comparing DPS rotation vs Broil/Biolysis in any of the contexts he mentioned completely ignores the healing part of playing healer.
This shows me that you're all hyper-aware of your Broil/Biolysis, so much that you forget that healing is still a significant part you have to think about. Healing is unique in its own way, because it's the collective effort of two healers. Meanwhile, playing DPS is a predominantly individual pursuit.
I don't know why you all choose to bring up so many flawed analogies. Your TP analogy fails because it's nothing like healing. Healing is single target, aoe, affected by mechanics, affected by other players and has much more severe consequences when you fail. TP management is completely individual.
I could point out some problems with your 30-70% split, but this all drifts away from my original point. -
11-14-2019, 10:09 PMSaefinnThe point of the analogy is that if you're doing 1 thing over and over for the larger part of the role then do something else for a smaller part of the role is boring. The TP thing was completely arbitrary and not to reflect like for like healing and something DPS do.Quote:
Originally Posted by LariaKirin
The point being if I'm not healing for a large portion for the content I'm doing then it feels like I'm doing nothing. So in the case of my analogy a large portion of what the DPS is doing doesn't feel like you're doing much.
If it felt like DPS was very minor and secondary to my role, that'd not be so bad. But the downtime we get a for an awful lot of content means it can feel the healing part is secondary, when it shouldn't. If it felt like healing was more significant then I would be more inclined to agree.
The 70% in cases is on the high end of the scale. 30% is the lowest I've tested for so far. Either way it's a big chunk where it feels like you're not really doing anything.
There are options. And we've been asking for the simplest solution with the least impact to the status quo. Accept downtime is a thing and fill it with more to do.
If I got my own way, I'd be healing a lot more, but the above to me is the fairest compromise. -
11-15-2019, 02:15 AMPunslingerYou know who else completely ignores the healing part of playing healer? Square.Quote:
Originally Posted by LariaKirin
Through constant oGCD inflation, Square has dumbed down healing significantly. They have also dumbed down healer DPS kits significantly by removing skills. The combination of the two results in a very dumbed-down role. Playing a healer in FF14 is playing the game on easy mode. As your rotation consists of "press 1 until the boss dies," the only thing you have to pay attention to are the fight mechanics, and that's just a matter of scripting your oGCD usage to match the scripted boss damage.
The "healing part" of playing healer is occasionally weaving an oGCD heal in between two casts of Glare/Broil/Malefic. That's it. If the rest of your party isn't huffing glue, you have very little reason to touch your GCD heals (except maybe to refresh a regen). Roughly 70-80% of your GCDs are spent spamming Glare/Broil/Malefic. Why is this state of affairs acceptable for healers, but not for tanks?
Tanks, like healers, have all their tanking functionality off the GCD. Defensive cooldowns are analogous to healer oGCDs. Yet tanks all have proper DPS rotations, while healers don't. Why don't we get anything interesting to occupy the significant downtime when we're not required to heal?
And DPS is the collective effort of five players, is it not? DPS openers are designed the way they are specifically to maximize synergy and synchronize raid buffs. Yet DPSers have complex rotations.Quote:
Originally Posted by LariaKirin
Tanking is also the collective effort of two or more tanks. The MT and OT have to coordinate to handle tank swaps, adds, and shared tankbusters. Yet tanks have complex rotations.
Healing, as mentioned before in posts you seem to have missed, can be done solo, because healers are so powerful. And yet, healers do not have any rotation at all, much less a complex one. -
11-15-2019, 05:30 AMAlynn
[QUOTE=Punslinger;5234411]Snip[QUOTE]
Disagree. PLD WAR AND DRK rotations are not as complex as you make them to be. The only exception might be GNB where different fights require you to do something wonky with your rotation like in E3S. The healer equivalent to your rotations/tank busters/whatever is planning out your oGCDS yourself/with a cohealer. People say that oGCDs are over powered, and that's fine. It's overpowered if you use them in the correct time and place. It's just not as stringent as what tanks have to do because you healing over your cohealer will not result in an auto killing you the same way tanks do with tank swaps. Are healer skills perfect as they are? No, and quite frankly with you I prefer the Stormblood iteration of SCH and AST over the mess that they are now. However, until you play healer at seemingly the worst situations possible, e.g. ultimates, baby sitting baboons in pf/df, you won't fully appreciate the toolkit that you have now. Also idk about you but I'm pretty sure healers have an opener. It might not be complex, but its an opener regardless unless you're telling me you don't press Chain on the third gcd or Divination by the fifth.
I think complaining about the lack of things to do as a healer in ex trials/expert roulette when you're decently geared or whatever is silly, since it requires very very little thinking. At any rate, I don't think all of the issues that you're feeling frustrated with healer comes from poorly designed healing on SE's part as of ShB, but with also how the game bosses are designed. If you look back at HW raids, they were a lot more healing intensive than now ontop of having to juggle old cleric stance. Even in SB, very little healing was required. But I think that adding Miasma 1+2/Aero 3 would make SCH/WHM somewhat more engaging again. Unfortunately until SE decides to listen to their healer playerbase, the best we can do is try to make things engaging for ourselves via healing zoo animals or by doing harder content with what we have for now :/ -
11-15-2019, 05:56 AMSaefinn
I suppose the question should be asked, Laria, why do /you/ think healers like myself, Billy, Sloprano, Forte and all of the regular complainers here, are unhappy?
Re-reading your post. I feel, honestly, yes you are absolutely right there is a lot more to healing jobs than just a handful of DPS moves. And yes, our focus seems to detract from a whole plethora of skills we do have. And you hold issue with the 70% I gave (which I used after somebody else did), yet for some content, that seems perfectly plausible to me. Given my own figures on SB and ShB content has been 30-60% (I think I posted the exact runs in an older thread, the 30% was a dungeon with a medium-to-full tank pull) and I sincerely expect there are better healers here than I, because it has been a long time since I really did any high-end raids as I'm mostly a casual player these days, so I think 70% is not necessarily insane, even if at the higher end of the scale.
And when I started this game, the way it was designed and how it worked with healers meant I healed more, whilst simulatenously having the most complicated version of healer DPS in this game (as a SCH at least). Back then it mattered less that I DPS'd too (in fact, I was told off a few times for it) because my healing was busy enough and the downtime wasn't long enough to find it dull if I didn't bother DPSing all the time. This was also a time when I was a raider and the balance between DPS and heals was never really an issue.
So I think if we're complaining that our DPS is too boring. I feel the question should be asked, "how much time is needed spent healing for them to feel that way?" I've seen plenty of arguments about accessibility for healers, and if say, I got my way, healers would be more complicated than they are and might be less accessible to somebody who is new, less experienced or have some sort of handicap. Although my argument would be to offer more to help them along the way, I realise my way might not work for as many, hence my willingness to meet somewhere in the middle. And taking the assumption that this is the direction SE want to take to make things more accessible, then what us moaners have asked for if anything is quite reasonable and quite fair, because what I tend to see people ask for is a varied DPS rotation or more to do in our downtime. This approach impacts nothing about how accessible the jobs are, it doesn't impact how they feel to heal or any of the healing mechanics in the game, no content needs to be adjusted, those who're finding it harder to keep up will not be impacted and so on. The only people who'd be impacted are those who have the downtime to DPS and those who believe in green DPS, which for the majority of content is not that important to have optimised DPS, and for the content where it is important, they're going to be at a level where they can handle it. -
11-15-2019, 06:20 AMLariaKirinIf you follow the trail of discussion you'll find my first post, in which I say that this will always be a problem so long as encounters are scripted. And that this is a problem for every job. I'll repeat myself, but - the fights are not designed to be fun forever and certainly not when you are overgeared/have 20 clears experience. This is true for every single job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punslinger
Do you know what going through Titan is like for a DPS player? It's 3 minutes of trying to fit the predefined rotation (stored in muscle memory) that you've been doing for weeks while making minor adjustments, followed by 9 minutes of a dummy fight with minimal movement.
Why five? It's the collective effort of eight players in the grand scheme of things. But that's not the kind of thing I'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punslinger
What your co-healer is doing directly impacts your skill usage. If you change your co-healer, you change your rotation - or they do.
It amuses me that you think healing is so easy. Take a look at a world first log or early clear to find 20+ Succors. Not at coordinated speedrun groups who have cleared the fight 50 times and have gone through the trial-and-error to minimize healing to such a degree that a missing Reprisal is a wipe.
What do you think is going to be easier to do? Go into a PF as a healer or a DPS? -
11-15-2019, 07:16 AMSaefinnYou'll also find that I made a follow up post to address your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by LariaKirin
Having played since the game's BETA and not really having stopped, I've experienced exactly what you're talking about on healers, tanks and DPS. And I've always been fine with that, because it's one of the downsides to scripted content and even then, not all encounters were unenjoyable when you got to that point. Heck, I still like getting Wanderer's Palace and that was the original farming dungeon, I've done it to death and when I tank I still have the speedrun pulls engraved into my brain. There's nothing challenging about it.
SB and to a greater extent ShB I found healing a lot less interesting to play, even before I hit that point you describe. Nowadays, I'll opt for DPS over healer on any new content not because I have less hassle as a DPS, but because I'll enjoy it.
This is coming out of a person who loves healing. Has always loved healing and wants to continue to love healing in this game. Now I know what I loved about healing, I know what specifically worked for me and what didn't. I know what changes have affected that. I've even picked points where I have enjoyed healing in ShB and what made it work.
I don't think these are things that can easily be dismissed as "but it's like it for every other job and has always been a problem", because then I would find it easier to relate your points here. As, again, I've gotten to the point multiple times in this game before I had anything to complain about for healers. And gotten there with all 3 roles. And I'm in a position where I'd be able to tell the difference.
I'll draw on a couple of examples where healing was more enjoyable ShB.
When I first ran Scholar through Qitana Ravel. It was at this point I thought, "maybe healing gets fun later in the game and that maybe the new content is balanced to healer design and maybe I'll enjoy it". Then I got to Malikah's Well and the experience was the same and I was ready to start saying positive things, even if they'd be prefaced with "but everything before that is bad".
Then I got to Mt Gulg and it was an Art of War spam for most of it and was getting bored again. Then I checked people's gear and everybody was adequately geared, not over geared, but adequate. Then I realised in the previous runs, we were all not in great gear. Then all the trials and dungeons that followed didn't feel engaging. This is all when the content was still fresh. -
11-15-2019, 07:30 AMvtndll
It might just be me but I enjoyed being able to cast miasma,II,& III, being able to bane it to the whole group, then throwing shadowflare on the ground. Or in the case of one target switching fester with bane.
Now it's just run like a mad man into melee range and spam art of war while trying to dodge AoEs on the ground. Or single target casting miasma every 30 seconds then spamming broil.
Well I guess a good thing that comes out of the changes making healing braindea- I mean "streamlined" I can catchup on all my favorite shows on popular streaming services like Netflix or Disney's new Disney+™ while running dungeons, raids, and/or trials! -
11-15-2019, 08:40 AMCrimsonGunneryes fights will be boring to do cause they are scripted,in the end the fight itself will be boring to do but healers don't have it the same as every other job. healers have 2 different parts in their kits.Quote:
Originally Posted by LariaKirin
the part used for healing and the part used for downtime.unlike other jobs that actually have fun and interesting gameplay to do during their runs healers have nothing but 1 button spam the entire run.
the fight may be repetitive and with enough experience you know what and when to dodge but that it,most of the time dps and tank just follow their rotation and it keeps them busy cause they have more then 1 button to press the entire time.
on the other hand healers don't have anything to do during downtime,the fight might be repetitive and boring but again unlike tanks and dps the issue is when no one being damaged you got nothing to do.
so now you know what is the bullshit of your point is with titan for a dps player? ITS THE FACT THEY HAVE MORE THEN 1 SKILL TO PRESS AND IN CERTAIN ORDER AND TIMING WHILE FIGHTING THE DUMMY WHILE HEALERS HAVE 1 BUTTON SPAM THAT ENTIRE TIME.
fights might not be designed to be fun forever it doesn't mean that what you do should be boring as well.
yes healing is so easy cause its main goal is basically making sure hp is above 0. it can be done by 1 single healer it can be even with 2 it isn't much of a collective effort if the only thing your co-healer will impact is save 1 skill or 2 and he wont impact any rotation especially since in healing there isn't one,it just cast ,heal and back to full hp.
if you want to argue about it then the only point you got in it is speed but again if 1 healer can fill enough hp and do it fast enough then what i said before still count and your co-healer or even not your co healer but your tank or another party member using his heal will simply just save you 1-2 skill casts and won't impact your "rotation".
also casting 20+succors isn't indication to the difficulty of healing ,its indication to how much shit that party probably eaten from mechanics.casting healing in its core is easy in nature,you don't have a healing rotation ,you don't need memorize when to use which heal,you just choose 1 of the many healing skills you have to cast and save the rest for later if needed.
DPS became much more harder to do then a healer cause the more you play the fight the less buttons healer press until it becomes a single button called glare/malefic/broil unlike dps who need to actually memorize a rotation and keep doing it the entire time while avoiding damage.
we don't ignore the healing part of our kits ,we welcome it,we love it and would like to use it more then 50% of the time we do a run but it isn't like that.
ignoring the other half of the healer which is to support his party during downtime is simply wrong, especially since the nature of runs is basically to avoid getting hurt meaning you wont be doing heals for most if not all the time in a run.