FF 5.X Alternative Raid Buff Alignment and Openers

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I was thinking of slowly doing this over the next month or so, but how would people feel if I made individual timelines for each class in relation to raid buffs?

It'd be a lot of work, but it'd make it easier for people to see the goal of these openers at a glance. Plus, if they still need extra confirmation, they'd be able to math it out themselves without having to consistently double check the timestamp of each ability.

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My question would be... why do it at all.

While I certainly am willing to look at alternate possibilities and use them myself... the reality here is NO "rotation" that ANYONE puts out there should be taken with more than a grain of salt. No matter how much of an "expert" they are.

Never have I seen any combat go according to plan or ever be precise enough to even guarantee you'll even be able to do that.

I used to have that kind of arguement all the time, back in the day with Summoner during Heavensward when the Dreadwyrm Trance added 10% damage to your Ruin III and cut the mana cost for it, and I used to watch some Summoners just jump on people who said they cut off their trance to blow Deathflare early. "Oh because that's like not the way its supposed to be done and stuff or you lose your 10% damage on a Rune 3"...

My response was always oh great, what's more important squeezing out that extra 500-600 damage from one more Ruin 3... or losing your Deathflare entirely because the boss mob just hit a transition phase right at that point so you lost 10-12,000 damage from a Deathflare instead?

If you follow these things to the letter you can end up losing DPS not gaining it.

The flow of combat dictates what you do... not some set in stone rotation on paper.

You're right in general, but fights in XIV are scripted enough you can set rotations in stone safely.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

You're right in general, but fights in XIV are scripted enough you can set rotations in stone safely.

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See that's where we disagree,
Especially when you get to dungeons or raids with a lot of movement, adds, transition phases, and a lot of AoEs going off.

If you don't stay flexible, you will lose DPS... not gain it by sticking to a set in stone "rotation".

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

See that's where we disagree,
Especially when you get to dungeons or raids with a lot of movement, adds, transition phases, and a lot of AoEs going off.

If you don't stay flexible, you will lose DPS... not gain it by sticking to a set in stone "rotation".

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It's not really a thing to disagree on. Every fight in this game is scripted down to the letter, including Ultimate. Trash pulls are variable because of the tank, but beyond that? The boss will always buster at the same time, mechanics will always happen at the same time, and heals will always be needed in the same places barring avoidable damage being taken.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

It's not really a thing to disagree on. Every fight in this game is scripted down to the letter, including Ultimate. Trash pulls are variable because of the tank, but beyond that? The boss will always buster at the same time, mechanics will always happen at the same time, and heals will always be needed in the same places barring avoidable damage being taken.

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No they actually won't, because damage is not constant, so the Boss mob getting to that transition phase is not constant either with your timing nor your CDs. It COULD turn out that way... but it also might not.

AoEs are random or are on the person dealing the most damage, or on specifically defined targets which may be YOU. And if you get targeted or it lands in your area its going to hose up your rotation, so you better be able to adapt to that.

Mechanics may or may not pick you, so you could be the guy who got tethered which will hose up your rotation and force you to do something else. You could be RIGHT in the middle of your Trance and suddenly the Boss Mob starts his gaze attack out of a random choice so you have to turn around and again hoses up that perfect rotation you had going.

It is not, and never has been "constant" like you're claiming.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

No they actually won't, because damage is not constant, so the Boss mob getting to that transition phase is not constant either with your timing nor your CDs. It COULD turn out that way... but it also might not.

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What was the last Extreme/Savage that you've done? There are places in Hades Extreme where this could be the case, but in that case it falls on the player to know that such a thing is coming and to adjust their rotation accordingly. The rotation still exists, both the players' and the boss', it's still the basis for doing damage as a damage dealer, healing damage as a healer, and mitigating damage as a tank. Your claim is coming across as if rotations are never feasible when that's not true in the slightest.

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AoEs are random or are on the person dealing the most damage, or on specifically defined targets which may be YOU. And if you get targeted or it lands in your area its going to hose up your rotation, so you better be able to adapt to that.

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Not always, in fact most AoEs are actually quite predictably targeted. Living Liquid Ultimate for instance, you know who will get targeted by what AoE for every minute of the fight. Brute Justice Ultimate is similar, you know within reason who is going to get targeted with what, and how to pass it off throughout the encounter. Your rotation does need to be planned around what is going on, but again, the base rotation does exist and everything is just an adaption off of it.

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Mechanics may or may not pick you, so you could be the guy who got tethered which will hose up your rotation and force you to do something else. You could be RIGHT in the middle of your Trance and suddenly the Boss Mob starts his gaze attack out of a random choice so you have to turn around and again hoses up that perfect rotation you had going.

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But the mechanic will always occur at the same time every fight. Okay so tether is coming out, you know when it's coming out, you plan ahead for what you'll do if you're tethered. Base rotation, again, still exists. It's not some unfeasible, impossible thing just because mechanics can happen to you. Most fights in this game, actually, you can execute your entire rotation on without a single interruption. Also, I know no boss that gazes randomly. Name me one that gazes randomly.

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It is not, and never has been "constant" like you're claiming.

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You've been playing this game since at least Heavensward, and you're blind to how scripted fights are? Really?

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

No they actually won't, because damage is not constant, so the Boss mob getting to that transition phase is not constant either with your timing nor your CDs. It COULD turn out that way... but it also might not.

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Um. Bosses now are always scripted, so what are you talking about?

Tankbusters are always at X time stamp.
Heals are always needed at Y time stamp.
AOEs are always at Z time stamp.

This has been the case since HW where people could no longer push/phase bosses early (e.g., Cruise Chaser in A11S, Zurvan EX).

There may be niche instances where you make rotational changes (e.g., DNCs in Phase 1 of TEA AOE Living Liquid and Living Hand because it’s more damage over single-target), but these are highly niche and highly fight specific. Things like your base rotation rarely deviate in most content. And openers—which is what this thread is about—do not deviate on a fight-by-fight basis. They are always the same.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

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I think you just have a confusion on the meaning of a rotation. That's just a general flow for a job, in broad terms. Having to cut bits here and there is not changing your rotation, it's just adapting to the fight. And hard work on these changes according to each individual fight is optimization. But rotation is always the same.

For instance it's difficult to keep the flow of Summoner in dungeons because you might desynchronize your Tri-Desaster timing and Trances timings in the time between packs. But it does not change your rotation, which is always keep DoTs up, don't delay Energy Drains and Trances, Ruin / Egi assault in between.
That's the same in EXT primals where sometimes you have a long ultimate animation. You'll re-adapt your stuff.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

What was the last Extreme/Savage that you've done? There are places in Hades Extreme where this could be the case, but in that case it falls on the player to know that such a thing is coming and to adjust their rotation accordingly. The rotation still exists, both the players' and the boss', it's still the basis for doing damage as a damage dealer, healing damage as a healer, and mitigating damage as a tank. [B]Your claim is coming across as if rotations are never feasible when that's not true in the slightest.

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Ahh but at least now you're getting it.
If you don't stay flexible, you will lose DPS... not gain it by sticking to a set in stone "rotation".

It is not possible to stick to any set in stone rotation because your rotation is dictated by the flow of combat... not a set in stone on paper rotation.

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But the mechanic will always occur at the same time every fight. Okay so tether is coming out, you know when it's coming out, you plan ahead for what you'll do if you're tethered. Base rotation, again, still exists. It's not some unfeasible, impossible thing just because mechanics can happen to you. Most fights in this game, actually, you can execute your entire rotation on without a single interruption. Also, I know no boss that gazes randomly. Name me one that gazes randomly.

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That also is not true... a boss mob can have a random choice of which of its attacks to use. It could be a tank buster, it could be a gaze attack it could be something else. Either way all of those will disrupt your timing which in turn causes you to alter your rotation to something else.

If you get tethered your rotation is screwed depending on the type of tether. If its the one where you have to turn around to stop the thing tethered to you from following you or burn the add attached to you, you're going to have to totally change up what you were going to do next, you can't face the boss mob anymore and now you have to burn down the thing attached to you. If its the type of tether where you have to run in the opposite direction of the person your tethered to to break it... you're not going to be able to complete what it is you were trying to do. If its the positive/negative, or positive positive tether, your rotation is going to be disrupted when you get sent flying in one direction or the other.

There are tons of different variables of what can hit you and when, and all of which will force your rotation to change.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

That also is not true... a boss mob can have a random choice of which of its attacks to use. It could be a tank buster, it could be a gaze attack it could be something else. Either way all of those will disrupt your timing which in turn causes you to alter your rotation to something else.

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Please name a boss that randomizes its attacks in this fashion.

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If you get tethered your rotation is screwed depending on the type of tether. If its the one where you have to turn around to stop the thing tethered to you from following you or burn the add attached to you, you're going to have to totally change up what you were going to do next, you can't face the boss mob anymore and now you have to burn down the thing attached to you. If its the type of tether where you have to run in the opposite direction of the person your tethered to to break it... you're not going to be able to complete what it is you were trying to do. If its the positive/negative, or positive positive tether, your rotation is going to be disrupted when you get sent flying in one direction or the other.

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+/- tethers may interrupt your rotation, but it doesn’t change the rotation. If you have to disengage for a -/- or +/+ repelling tether, you simply lose GCDs. You don’t suddenly alter what you’re doing.